FCC 416D: From the Outside In

[mcguyver]

Well, as promised, here is my review of the complete FCC 416D that I received from Double Tap Tactical about 2 weeks ago or so for $2920. Now that I have had some time, I have put together a review of this product. Some are going to like it, and some are not. Too bad. I didn't build the gun, FCC did that, and good or bad, this is the result.

Now, I do not have a picture of the gun as it arrived, as I have gamed it a couple of times, it has had to have some functional and performance enhancements to make it usable. Here is as close to factory as it looks, excepting the ASAP and trigger guard, and the two trigger faux pins that were missing have been replaced:



Now, when I first received the gun, it came without sights. The sights on it now are FCC as they supplied them. You will noticed how much of the screw sticks out past the sight block. It is nearly 1/4", and needs to be cut and the end painted black to prevent it catching on your skin and gear. Or, you can just not install them and go with something else:



Next up was the immediate noise it made. It was a "Cha-Chunk" everytime the gun was moved past the horizontal. This was from the gas piston rod, which although invisible with the rail system on the gun, it is nonetheless necessary to retain the realistic replication of the 416. The spring designed to operate this rod in the real gun was too loose for the job in the FCC version, and the rod slammed forward and back. It required me to remove the RIS and stretch this spring to give it the required tension. The kit that I assembled immediately after work on the complete gun required this as well. There are no pictures of this, it was remedied within minutes of openning the box. Sorry.

Next up was putting the upper receiver onto the gun. Immediately I noticed that the buffer cap was different, and it had 8 shims on it. Now, I have assembled and worked on hundreds of Systema PTWs and done every modification possible, and never have I had to use so many shims. Maybe with a real buffer tube or some aftermaket DYTAC for example I might have to use 4 or maybe 5, but never 8. I removed the factory buffer cap and installed their parts buffer cap instead after I threaded the buffer tube in one more turn.



The factory cap is on the right, and their aftermaket parts cap is on the left.

If you will notice, the factory cap has simply an indent into the material rather that a through-and-through hole. This was problematic as it did not allow for a proper fit of the cylinder lock bearing. In order to accomplish closure of the receivers, the tension on the bearing was reduced to near zero, you could push it in with your finger and it would sometimes spring back. This has two problems. First, it renders that 416 cylinder unsuable in any other PTW as you now do not have a positive lock between receivers and the play that allows you to open and close receivers is now translated into movement forward-back of the cylinder. This introduces and airseal leak at the chamber, and can vary FPS wildly. The second problem with this cap is that it is impossible to install another cylinder, in my case factory 2011 Systema cylinders. The tension on the lock bearing is too great to allow closure. The only solution is to replace the buffer cap, remove the spring guide from the cylinder and retension it properly to allow compatibilty between guns and cylinders. Part of the reason we buy this platform is to have modularity of components and compatibility. I got out of AEGs because shimming this or that is a pain in the butt, but acceptable for a $299 gun. It is not acceptable in a $2900 gun.



This photo shows how much of the buffer cap sticks out into the receivers. In any other PTW, this is no good, you would not even be able to close the receivers. This is required for the 416, and should be a good indication that these receivers would not be compatible with other lowers. Not that this is a problem, but it is something to be mindful of when assembling the kit, changing buffer tubes, etc.



Next up is the motor. Now, the FCC 2.5 motor has been out for some time, nearly a year now. The first one I installed was last summer. I noted then that it had some QC problems, namely that the brush hoods are too large and that they stick out past the endbell on both sides. This makes installation of your grip a son-of-a-bitch, and makes removal even worse. The hoods catch on the grip and scrape all the way down and dig in during removal. I was worried that I was going to snap the hood screw and brush spring post. But, seeing as how FCC uses metal screws, this is less likely.

FCC 2.5 motor. Note the extra brush hood material extending past the endbell:




Systema 490 motor. Note the flush finish of the endbells:



In no way am I making any assessment of the longevity or durability of the FCC 2.5 motor. We all are well aware of the failings that Systema has had with their 490 series and now their 7511 series of motors. The entire problem Systema has relates solely to the armature and in particular the windings. Their motors are machine wound, and often you get tension changes at the bends on the armature core. This results it damage to the Litz coating on the winding, and will lead to a short across winding points and result in the inability of that winding pole to generate a magnetic field. In other words, a dead winding and a dead spot on the motor at that pole. The only solution is to buy another motor and risk the same problem, or get the armature rewound. This has been the solution I have chosen.

Now, FCC may have solved this issue, and time will tell. However, their motor has other issues. First off, the brushes. They are carbon brushes with little appreciable silver content. This has one advantage in that the brushes will wear and not the commutator. However, it has one main disadvantage, and this is excessive wear and the risk of breaking. In a properly balanced armature with a true commutator, this is not an issue, and brush longevity and durability are more desirable traits. Increase the brush silver content to 30% and those things will last years and they are unlikely to break.

Next up is the brush lead wiring. FCC has installed the brushes outside the brush hood for entry via the back of the brush. This is the least desirable method as there is now a bend over sharp metal that results in poor movement of the brush as they wear. First thing I did when openning up the grip was to reroute this wiring into the spring channel so it moves with the spring. Easy fix, but it should have been done at the factory.




Next up was the metal screws holding the brush hoods down. After seeing the flash on the hoods, I fully understand why metal screws are used. They are a solution to snapping the screws while fighting the grip on and off. However, this was not the solution. The solution was to have brush hoods of the correct size installed, and use nylon or similar material for the screws. As it sits now, only small fibre washers prevent contact bewteen the screw and the endbell of the motor, and as such, the entire motor. This whole system is contingent on these washers being installed correctly and staying that way. If one is not, you will energize the motor with one pole of the DC from the battery upon firing. The only thing keeping you from a blown fuse or a dead FET board is keeping the other washers in place and keeping conductive debris out of a highly magnetic motor. That is another issue I have:



This is the FCC MOE grip that came on a 416. What is a Magpul grip doing on a 416 anyways? At any rate, they used a copy of the MOE grip cover to hold the grip in place. As you can clearly see, it now leaves one whole side of the motor open to the elements, be they water, metal, dirt, anything. This is utterly unnacceptable. The motor in a TW platform has very strong magnets, is finely tuned (if it is intended to last) and has upstream electronics depending on smooth and continued operation. This is a very easy fix, use a different grip or use a proper cover, like this:



Next up was the hopup. Well, I took the gun out for a day with the factory hopup. It became clear pretty quickly that I could not use my 0.30G Green Devil BBs. The factory hopup simply could not apply enough pressure to the BB give it any effective hop. This was a problem on two fronts. One, the factory adjuster was garbage. The pin was not glued in place, so applying tension to the adjuster screw forced the open end of the adjuster cage to open up and induced wobble around the inner barrel. It also meant that the roller would turn, effectively negating any pressure that did exist. Second was the adjuster spring. It is not as strong as the Systema adjuster cushions, but a steel spring is going to be less affected by temperature changes from summer to winter play for example. Anyone who has taken their Systema out in the cold knows this. However, this is an issue of pure performance, and considering most game play in Canada occurs in summer weather, the spring is simply too weak.

I replaced the spring with Systema adjuster cushions:



And I got rid of the factory adjuster and installed a modified adjuster. No milling of the inner barrel required:



Now, these are the improvements and oversights that I have had to correct on a $2920 gun. Some of them have needed to be done to a factory Systema gun as well, but my last Systema purchased 1 year ago cost me $1750.

There is, however, another issue that I will not be able to correct. The takedown pin holes are too large. There is an excessive amount of play of the takedown pin that, over time and with wear, will lead to poor operation of the takedown pin. FCC has obviously realized this as they install a nice steel detent pin that is a tad longer than even a real one to prevent the inevitable enlargement of that hole and loss of the detent pin. This issue exists in both the complete gun and the kit I received.



Systema takedown pin. Note how precise the hole is in relation to the pin:



Play in the FCC pin:



Play in the Systema:




Next up, the cylinder. The surface finish on the Velocity-branded cylinder is poor. It wears very easily from only a few insertions/removals:



Inside the cylinder, I noticed that FCC had used silicone-based grease for the lubricant. Now, silicone is great for cold weather performance, as it has superior viscosity to the the lithium grease Systema uses in their cylinders. However, in Canada, play is primarily in the summer when temperatures are above freezing, so I will disregard any cold weather advantages of silicone in favour of the tried and true lithium grease. Now, the design of the TW is such that the piston head o-ring needs to retract upon the decompression stroke and quickly expand upon the compression to preserve the cylinder air volume. This results in better shot-to-shot consistancy in velocity, which means your BBs end up in the same place, or pretty darn close to it. A thicker grease allows the piston head o-ring to seat itself quicker, thus preserving that volume. Years ago, when getting a little tub of the Systema cylinder grease was expensive and time consuming, I experimented with silicone greases as an alternative. The results were poor, with wild variations in velocity and inconsistant hopup as grease tended to exit the cylinder and travel down to the adjuster, fouling the rubber. The TW hopup performs best when kept bone dry, so this would not do. The factory cylinder with factory hopup with an M115 FCC spring installed gave me a nominal velocity of 355 FPS with a deviation window of 20-30 FPS using Bastard 0.20g. After removal of the factory grease and installation of Systema cylinder grease and a modified hopup the velocity is now 370 FPS with a deviation window of 7-10 FPS. A remarkable improvement just from a change in lubricant a better hopup. Now, the range of this gun is closer to that of my 2011 Systema PTW, but still a little short and not quite as consistant, but the new hopup needs some bed in time and I am confident it will be on-par soon.

The buffer tube on this gun is not milspec, it is slightly oversized. I have this same buffer on another FCC/real hybrid and over the course of a few weeks has worn enough that the stock is now moveable and can be installed and removed by one person.

The fit and finish of the body is fine, and barring the items I have noted here, I find no other issues or problems to date.

Now, this review to date has been solely on the technical merits of the construction of this 416D. I am going to update this with a gearbox teardown soon as well as an overall performance review. However, the gun in its factory form was ungamable and required a modified hopup, so the performance is going to be much better than the factory. As well, the cylinder grease was removed and substituted with Systema grease to keep the consistancy between shots within an acceptable tolerance. Longevity of the motor and wear on the gear train will come later, as needed.

[mcguyver]

FCC asked me in a previous thread to email them in regards to their products. This is the exchange up until today. I wonder sometimes why I bother:











Now, FCC can do what they want with the info I have presented. I should be grateful, I suppose, that a manufacturer has even bothered to listen to their consumers. God knows Systema never did. That being said, anything FCC decides to do with this matter is out of my hands and firmly in theirs. They can chose to listen or not, it is their product. As a consumer, I paid for the right to voice my concerns and make whatever changes I deem necessary to make a $2920 gun perform as it should, and not be seriously lacking when placed beside my $1750 original.

[mcguyver]

Update, June 9/13

Well, I got to play around with the Velocity cylinder this weekend. It was originally shooting about 350 fps with a pretty wide deviation window from factory with an FCC M115 spring. The original spring that came with this cylinder and gun was the M160. I never bothered to chrono it as it is a waste of time and never will be used anyway.

I cleaned the factory silicone grease out of it a month ago and have gamed it a few times, putting about 2000 rounds through it. It was shooting 370 fps after I cleaned out the grease out of it in favour of Systema lithium cylinder grease. The fps increased to about 370 fps and the deviation window dropped to around 10 fps. As I moved this cylinder from gun to gun, I noticed that it just didn't feel like the nice, positive lock I have come to expect from years of Systema use and dozens upon dozens of cylinders. Even with the retensioning of the lock bearing, it was still a bit spongy. So, I decided to replace the spring guide with a Systema spring guide, and the difference was immense. The fps increased to 404 fps with a deviation window of 4 fps.

Clearly, the Velocity lock bearing is a little off-spec, and increasing the tension on the spring did not help, it simply does not fit well with the hole in the buffer cap. This allowed an airseal leak to be introduced into the chamber as the cylinder moves back and forth, just like if the buffer cap isn't shimmed correctly.

Update June 17/13

Well, the first round of comparisons has been completed. I had a total of 3 guns sent to me, one was an FCC blingy-blingy race gun, the other was an FCC body and some furniture over Systema internals, and the other was a Systema with an FCC motor. These were the guns sent to me, minus the stock to save space in shipping:



For a comparison, these were the guns I compared against. Top is an FCC body with an Aero Precision monolithic upper and FCC parts. Gearbox and motor are Systema. Middle is a Systema. Bottom is my FCC 416, the subject of this review initially:



The first gun I looked at was the race gun.







Note the open dust cover, I will go over that a little later. Also note the two-tone paint job, I assume it was intentional.

It is a complete FCC gun, and I assume rather rare in Canada. The owner complained that he had to lob his shots to reach a target he had set up at 80 feet, and that his hopup was ineffective. Upon openning, this is what I found:



Well, looky here, if it isn't the same useless buffer cap that I found in my 416. It would appear that there was in fact more than one of these manufactured and they were most certainly installed at the factory. Even more to this was the fact that the shimming of this buffer cap was out of control:



Note the number of shims on the cap, they take up a third of it. I was a tad flabbergasted when I pulled 8 of them off my 416, and that was a record until this gun came into my hands. Please count them for me:



Yes, there were 12 shims, that has got to be a record. The solution to this was simple, turn the buffer in once more and eliminate all the shims. The EZ-pull pins on the body are tight, but guess what, they are tight even without a cylinder in the gun.

Here is a pic of the factory adjuster cage. The rubber is small, looks like about 1.5mm or perhaps 2mm, and it is a harder material. It also spins very freely on the pin, and the pin is not glued into the cage. This combination is precisely what made up a Systema Gen 1 hopup, and they were terrible. When you did try to apply presusure, the harder material would not grip the BB well, and whatever grip did exist would be spent turning the rubber and not the BB. Add to this that FCC uses a spring, which is far weaker than Systema's rubber cushions and the hopup is essentially useless. It doesn't work, at all, zero backspin. The icing though is the unglued pin. When whatever feable pressure is applied, it tends to want to spread apart the open end of the adjuster cage, as the pin floats free and that presuure has to do something. It makes the cage want to wobble around the inner barrel. In all fairness though, FCC's spring can not create that amount of force, but if you removed it and installed Systema's cushions, it would instantly become a problem. This is why Systema has glued their pins since Gen 3.



Another complaint from the owner was the terrible misfeeding he had been having with the gun. I did some testing with it and found that Systema factory mags feed fine, Vanaras mags (not the Rampo-rebranded-as-FCC PMags) feed fine, but the FCC and modified real PMags do not feed worth a damn. FCC sells mags that do not work in their own gun, you must look elsewhere. At any rate, the reason for it is that their magwell is cut too large, and the mags sit too far back. We have heard the reasons for it and it is garbage. If they have a problem in HK with HK law, move. I don't care about HK law, nor does anyone else outside HK. I just want my mags to work. Here is the offending area:



Note how deep they cut, you can see the mag release spring. Their other Noveske-marked lowers are also cut deep, but not quite, and the difference in feeding issues is stark. My lower and the other one sent to me do misfeed, but when I applied a strip of loop velcro into that spot, the misfeeding is reduced to only a couple of my mags. With the strip added to the race gun, misfeeding persists. I can not really do much more with this, the owner will have to stick to metal mags for now, but other options may become available in the future. Some misfeeding was noted on the last few BBs in the mag. As the spring tension is less at this point, an imperfect alignment of mag and chamber can not be overcome with the spring tension behind the follower.

Now, misfeeding is not simply an inconvenience. It can be destructive. Persistant misfeeding leads to chopping of BBs, and the debris from chopped BBs can destroy the hopup and enter the cylinder and cause destruction of the cylinder, as shown here:



The debris jammed up around the nozzle and piston head, and broke away a section of the head. It required a replacement of the piston assembly, as well as a thorough clean and relube of the cylinder. It was a Systema 2011 M110.

Next up, the motor. So far, there is no motor for the PTW that will last. None, not one. Everyone is doomed to fail, the differences are how long. Factory System 490-7511 and Mad Max will all fail, I have examples of all of them sitting in a box right now. Even FCC 2.5 motors will fail, the key here is that they offer 3 month warranty. Currently, I am at the end of month 2, and I don't anticipate failure in the next month. To also be fair, I personally have never had a Systema motor fail neither, and I have owned more of them than any person on this forum. But lots of other guys have had lots of failures. Now, FCC, if they have fixed the issue with the armature, should have good life expectancy out of their motors. But, there are a few minor steps they can take to ensure that. Here's one:







They route the brush leads around the top of the brush and into the hood. they do this I think because the leads are about 1mm too short, and moving it into the spring channel as shown is tricky, but not impossible. This is where it should be. It is less of an issue in their grossly overcut MOE grips, but installed as a replacement into a Systema, those leads will be pinched, as evidenced above. This will stop brush movement and your motor will cease to function.

I have noted this before and have been saying it for the last year.

Other than these issues, everything seemed fine with this rifle. Trigger response is great, the gearbox and motor sound smooth. My main attention with this gun was spent on the hopup and buffer cap and shimming. I installed a replacement FCC buffer cap from my parts, the black one with the hole. I was given 3 cylinders with this lot of guns, one was a Systema Mad Max M170, a 2012 stainless M130 Systema and 2011 blue M110 cylinder. The M110 needed repair from the persistant chopping and misfeeding, and the M130 suffered from an offspec machining of the piston guides. This is an issue I have seen several times now, and it results in too much play in the piston and leads to a chewed up rack gear. This problem is not repairable, the cylinder shell is the problem. To resolve this, I installed the M130 spring into the Mad Max cylinder, and removed Systema's silicone head o-ring as it would not seal quick enough and resulted in a 30-40 fps drop. The end result was that this gun saw this FPS with the M110:





And with the M130:





Now, on to the FCC/Systema hybrid. This gun came to me with the dust cover from FCC with the lock that means it must stay open. It is a nice sentiment, but very impractical and dangerous for the durability of your gun. This gun failed at the RAAT Season Openner a couple of weeks ago. It was torrential rain, and from what I heard there were lakes and flowing streams through the middle of the field. I had another buddy at this game who also suffered failure of his Systema 2012 PTW, but his failure was his gun went 3-burst in both modes, a sign of water on the selector board. But at least it worked, with a closed dust cover to prevent 90% of water entry into the interior of the gun. The fellow with the Systema also put grease on the receiver joints to prevent ingress, smart fellow.

Now, you can see the mineral deposits on the exterior of the gun:



Open dust cover:



Water made it onto the gearbox:



And around the gearbox:





Onto the selector board:



And into the gearbox. Note the brown rust and byproduct of water and minerals reacting with the lithium-based grease Systema has used for their Mad Max gearbox:







This grease was replaced with Systema gear grease, the corrosion was cleaned out. This was a result of such a large openning allowing large amounts of water to literally flow through the gun. You may have "waterproofed" boards, but no amount of spray-on varnish will stop all water, and the motor certainly is not waterproof, and the motor in this gun failed during this game. The best way is to keep water out of the gun, but little cracks here and there is a far cry from a 3/4" x 2" open gap, with a nice guide (the cylinder) to allow water to flow right on top of the gearbox. Sure, having a "realistic" looking dust cover with a nice logo printed on it is cool, but this is an issue of style outweighing durabillity. Not cool. FCC, stop building those ridiculous dust covers and start building closed ones. Sheeesh!!!

I did also find another problem with this gun. It uses an FCC outer barrel, the sectionable fellow. And, it was more crooked than a lollipop-theiving politician:









See if you can spot the bow in the barrel. Nothing I can do to fix it. It still shoots OK though, but kind of looks ridiculous under a swanky KAC rail.

Now, onto performance. I took all three guns sent to me and installed modified Ver. 1 adjusters. These use a larger rubber than my Ver. 2 and require in most cases to mill down the inner barrel to allow them to sweep the required distance. They are still my favorite, and all my guns have them.

The best overall performance in distance and consistancy was my Systema CQBR, followed very closely by the Systema M4 sent to me and the FCC race gun. The differences in distance was a mere 10 feet, with the M110 giving nominal range of 245-250 feet, and the M130 250-265 feet. I did the testing last Saturday in the morning, after 10 days of rain, high humidity and temps at 8-10C. The wind was a solid 20KM/hr, and I oriented shooting to occure at 90 degrees to the wind. It meant my POI was about 8 feet left of my aim point. I used a Trijicon TA31 ACOG to follow my shots and used a spotter to mark location and to adjust hopup as he could watch the flightpath as the BBs neared termination. BB used were 0.30G Green Devils primarily with some .0.28g and 0.20g for chrono.

Just to give you a visual reference of distances involved, from shooter to target:



And from target back to shooting position, just beside my truck at the picnic table:




The consistantly worst performer was the 7lb shorty of mine, which with the 7.5" FCC barrel set is consistantly 30 fps less regardless of cylinder from any other TW with a longer barrel. The range reflects this, with 230-245 feet being the best it can offer.

This is the difference between FCC complete guns and Systema complete guns. Not much, my camera to Jonas:



And my lowly shorty:




It should also be noted that my CQBR has the most rounds through the hopup, being perhaps 35-40,000 rounds, and the hopups on the race gun, the FCC/Systema hybrid and the Systema M4 being new, with perhaps 1000-1500 rounds each through them. I fully expect some improvement as the hopup beds in and the BBs form a concave profile to the rubber with repeated application. The end result is that with a proper setup of buffer shimming to preserve the airseal and a modified adjuster, the FCC rifles will be equal performers to the Systema, no better, nor worse.

End result?

The issues I noted with my 416D were present on the race gun. The exception being the sloppiness of the faux gas piston system, which is a 416 exclusive. The buffer cap, shimming, hopup and motor were the same. The MOE grip has the open base. The dust cover was open. I left the dust cover open on the race gun at the request of the owner as it is a showpiece gun not likely to see much action. But for the others, mine and the the one sent to me, those had the lock ground away and spring reversed to keep that cover closed.

I will have another 416 to review soon to verify once and for all that I did not get a one-off lemon. It is looking pretty good so far.

More will follow.

[mcguyver]

Now, what is the end result of all this? The obvious question is, do I recommend their product? The answer is a cautious maybe.

If this 416D were priced at a retail of $999, then it would be a definite yes. Sure, there are some issues, but it is a great platform to build on and make some upgrades.

If this gun were $1999, it would be a maybe. You are dumping $2K into a gun, it needs some work out of the box. This would be the dividing line for most, and only the most committed should really look into it and take the plunge.

But this gun is $2900, and considering what I have seen and the modifications required, this gun is a no. I have the technical skills, knowledge and experience with this platform to make this changes. Most other users do not and can not, and the obvious performance shortfalls apparent in my gun are unfair trade for an out-of-the-box user.

In short, FCC, step up your game. Until you do, I can not in good conscience recommend your product.

[theshaneler]

thanks Brad, absolutely spectacular review.

I was on the fence about getting the conversion kit for my PTW, or selling it and buying the 416D, but with this info, I'll just keep my current PTW.

Nearly everyone talks highly of everything FCC, and its hard to tell who knows what they are talking about, and who is some young kid who thinks they know everything. So when i read a review coming from you, I know to trust 100% what you say, as there is probably only one other person who knows more than you about PTWs (Tac himself) and TBH im amazed FCC doesn't know how good you are with PTWs, they are on the PTW forums and you are a big name there as well.

Please keep reviewing FCC stuff as time goes on, I'm interested to hear more about them. Including the gearbox, i have heard mixed stuff about them, cant wait for you to add that info here!

Thanks
Shane

[IggysPiggy]

Wish this review had come out before I sold both my ptw's to buy FCC guns. I got a cheery email yesterday telling me my expected date to receive my ambi gearbox is now pushed back almost two full months. Yet I was told in our email exchange early may, should ship mid to late. I now have no gun to use I had to email them to ask how my orders doing, then days before end of may I had to contact them to find out my order was pushed back. Again my orders been paid for and in since early January.($1300+ Order)

So far that's a repeat of IMperial right now. I do not mind delays what I have an issue with is having to contact the seller to find this info out. Also my issue is I was told in the emails yes you are on the list for our next batch that's just going through qc. Yet local retailers will be receiving there ambi boxes by end of may go figure that right there tells me I'm not on the "next batch" as promised and agreed upon.

Ill be honest thousands of dollars tied up in FCC 416 guns and nothing to show for it.

At least with systema I knew to expect no customer support.

Sorry for jacking the thread, ill create another review once I actually get the rest of my product.

[mcguyver]

Sorry, I would have done this sooner, but I ordered the gun in December and received it two weeks ago.

[IggysPiggy]

Haha ouch I hear you it's ok I wasn't really serious on that I'm just disappointed and discouraged so far with the experience, makes me miss my PTW.

[ThunderCactus]

The reason they put a MOE grip on the 416 is because their motor doesn't FIT into the standard grip, and they probably left the cap open because the motor gets so damn hot lol
I really hope they revise the motor though, that should really be their flagship product

[mcguyver]

I think the reason that their motor doesn't fit is due to the excess flash on the brush hoods. I have installed the 2.5 motor into a standard PTW grip with a good deal of force, some swearing and some concern.

[wildcard]

Brad, Buddy i don't know how to say this except a big WTF?? I don't know whether you have a lemon or what bro? because your 416D compared to mine is like two different guns the only thing that is similar to mine is the coating on the cylinder, they do suck Lol but everything else is a complete opposite down to the buffer tube cap (mine is a see through). The only upgrades I did was a enlarged bolt release button silver race trigger and later on a QD body pin and a RS Magpul STR stock. So far my 416D has been ran by two guys (one as a loaner) with no issue everything on my gun is still stock, running stock motor and Hop Up. Plus I actually dunked my 416D and lost it for 10 minutes in snow with no issue. I still stand by my message to you to returned it and get a new one, I still can't believe its the same gun from the same manufacturer.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by wildcard

Brad, Buddy i don't know how to say this except a big WTF?? I don't know whether you have a lemon or what bro? because your 416D compared to mine is like two different guns the only thing that is similar to mine is the coating on the cylinder, they do suck Lol but everything else is a complete opposite down to the buffer tube cap (mine is a see through). The only upgrades I did was a enlarged bolt release button silver race trigger and later on a QD body pin and a RS Magpul STR stock. So far my 416D has been ran by two guys (one as a loaner) with no issue everything on my gun is still stock, running stock motor and Hop Up. Plus I actually dunked my 416D and lost it for 10 minutes in snow with no issue. I still stand by my message to you to returned it and get a new one, I still can't believe its the same gun from the same manufacturer.

Well, there are 3 possibilities:

1) My gun is typical of the manufacture of this model/brand

2) It is so atypical as to be unbelievable

3) It was pieced together with whatever parts were left over from their previous production run, the results are what I would expect.

From what I was led to believe, the 416 production run ended last year, and the batch of guns mine came from was the last one.

Now, as far as returning it to the manufacturer, well, that was never really an option. Would they have fixed what I found, would they have even found it or found cause to believe that it was atypical of their manufacture or performance? Would I have to wait for months to get it back, or not at all, with perhaps nothing but a refund or a substitute I didn't want? I committed to buy it, and better or worse, I own it.

Now, I have spent a pile of my time to make it correct, I am simply not willing to give that up to get another unknown or a refund. It is what it is. It may be difficult for you to grasp my position here, and from a business standpoint it is better to have a refunded and quiet customer than a vocal customer who refuses a refund or exchange. That is understandable. But I look at it from the perspective of the Ferarri mechanic who refuses to return his new hotrod to Italy because somebody in Italy forgot a few things and missed some others. He will just fix it and bitch the factory lackies out for his trouble.

I know for certain I won't be buying another FCC gun just to find out if they took me seriously. Somebody else will have to tell me.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

Well, there are 3 possibilities:

1) My gun is typical of the manufacture of this model/brand

2) It is so atypical as to be unbelievable

3) It was pieced together with whatever parts were left over from their previous production run, the results are what I would expect.

From what I was led to believe, the 416 production run ended last year, and the batch of guns mine came from was the last one.

Now, as far as returning it to the manufacturer, well, that was never really an option. Would they have fixed what I found, would they have even found it or found cause to believe that it was atypical of their manufacture or performance? Would I have to wait for months to get it back, or not at all, with perhaps nothing but a refund or a substitute I didn't want? I committed to buy it, and better or worse, I own it.

Now, I have spent a pile of my time to make it correct, I am simply not willing to give that up to get another unknown or a refund. It is what it is. It may be difficult for you to grasp my position here, and from a business standpoint it is better to have a refunded and quiet customer than a vocal customer who refuses a refund or exchange. That is understandable. But I look at it from the perspective of the Ferarri mechanic who refuses to return his new hotrod to Italy because somebody in Italy forgot a few things and missed some others. He will just fix it and bitch the factory lackies out for his trouble.

I know for certain I won't be buying another FCC gun just to find out if they took me seriously. Somebody else will have to tell me.

Well I will see if it is really indeed #2 and 3 on the sample of the new 416D ambi that we ordered because its not #1 for sure, I've seen quite a few 416D aside from mine that have no issues that you mentioned above and they all are made and arrived the same time as yours from DTT or FCC direct. this is truly the first abnormality of this rifle that I have seen, if this review were written by someone other than yourself I would have written it off as a rookies opinion but its not and as such I'm concern about it because its totally opposite from what I have experienced myself, to the point where I re-examine my gun in detail especially your problem points and have found nothing or issues with the exception of the cylinder coating. Now considering that we both get the them at the same place and from the same manufacturer but at different times (I got mine in January and the rest of them in around March/April) It ios weird and I can only classify your gun as a lemon, I'm not saying that you are wrong but even Ferrari can have lemons and they do. If I pay for a Ferrari, mechanic or not I will certainly returned a lemon back to Italy and demand a new one if the one I receive is a lemon.

cheers
Jay

[kullwarrior]

I find this review fairly interesting.
->Everywhere in the PTW forum community seemed to suggest FCC is good but not as good as Systema value-wise (which Brad is resonating)
->If I remember correct FCC was once on PTW forum, but the rep was banned -unknown reason, it is considered verboten to speak about it. People reviewed FCC (gearbox and motor) suggests there were still fault with it (the review is 1-2years old though)

[horto]