FCC 416D: From the Outside In

[ThunderCactus]

simunition is really expensive...
I understand people wanting to play at 3-5j, there's provisions for it, it's easy to make GBBRs operate at that level. A bit more risky but still very possible for AEG's, and especially PTWs, to operate in that range. And physics wise there is ammo heavy enough to get optimal performance at that FPS, and I'm sure the range is pretty good.
But there's no BB heavy enough to make use of 1000fps, you'd have to switch to 7mm spheroids or something, which means simunition might actually be cheaper.

If your goal is to have more realistic engagement distances like 400-600ft, although I'll be the first to admit we don't know what the maximum potential of a 6mm spheroid is, I know enough to say you'll never get a 6mm BB of any weight to do that with any sort of reliability.

[Zack The Ripper]

I was using the simmunition statement in hyperbole. Only rich people could afford that.

[mcguyver]

So, thanks to Jay, I think we can sum up that FCC does not have RS dimensions to comply with HK law. OK, I understand that, and it explains why some of their parts gave me difficulty when integrating with RS components. This is something that Systema does not suffer from as they are built in Japan.

However......

We are buying a TW platform. The absolute number one construction feature is that it has RS specs in areas where the user is going to be looking to upgrade. Things like chamber size, barrel nut threading, magwell sizing, stock sizing, etc.. I could care less about pin locations, they are cosmetic and a MM or two here or there is irrelevant. I do care that I can fit their outer barrel into a RS upper without and hour on the Dremel.

This is an extremely disappointing revelation that all prospective buyers need to be aware of. If you want their product but don't want a 416 or don't like their Noveske rail for example, you might end up with a TW loaded with airsoft parts because the real ones don't fit or you aren't in the mood for some modifications. FCC needs to think really hard whether that is worth it or whether they should be shipping manufacture to a jurisdiction where this is not an issue so that they rest of us can get a platform we want, not one that conforms to HK law that I could care less about and will never be a legal problem for me.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

So, thanks to Jay, I think we can sum up that FCC does not have RS dimensions to comply with HK law. OK, I understand that, and it explains why some of their parts gave me difficulty when integrating with RS components. This is something that Systema does not suffer from as they are built in Japan.

However......

We are buying a TW platform. The absolute number one construction feature is that it has RS specs in areas where the user is going to be looking to upgrade. Things like chamber size, barrel nut threading, magwell sizing, stock sizing, etc.. I could care less about pin locations, they are cosmetic and a MM or two here or there is irrelevant. I do care that I can fit their outer barrel into a RS upper without and hour on the Dremel.

This is an extremely disappointing revelation that all prospective buyers need to be aware of. If you want their product but don't want a 416 or don't like their Noveske rail for example, you might end up with a TW loaded with airsoft parts because the real ones don't fit or you aren't in the mood for some modifications. FCC needs to think really hard whether that is worth it or whether they should be shipping manufacture to a jurisdiction where this is not an issue so that they rest of us can get a platform we want, not one that conforms to HK law that I could care less about and will never be a legal problem for me.

FCC put in RS dimension where ever they could ie buffer tube they use a LMT buffer and they have a slew of RS flshhider, but the lower are modified slightly to prevent any RS magazine to fit, this was done in response to teh whole ATF fiasco. the dummy pin holes are off slightly to make their lower not being able to retain real firing mechanism without extensive modification and evenso it would have damaged teh lower to the point where they would not be useable. as the usage of airsoft parts I can assure you that all their parts are made in house including their new released cylinder (they dropped velocity) dont forget Canada is still a relatively new market to FCC ( their main market has been Europe, south east asia and Japan) even in HK FCC is hard to find because they do not want any unwanted attention from the local authority. The fitment of RS rails have been a non issue for me (I have a RS TROY TRX on my FFL) FCC do have real Gissele and URX fitted to their demo guns and most recently a URX3 brought in by me, I know some of other makes rail do not fit their body ie DD, they do have a RS DD that they cannot fit on their body without extensive modification. As for Systema they are still in the blanket ban with WA and WETTI in the states so being 100% compatible with RS do have their disadvantages.

[Zack The Ripper]

Originally Posted by wildcard

dont forget Canada is still a relatively new market to FCC ( their main market has been Europe, south east asia and Japan)

Don't forget that the most famous saying in business is "the customer is always right.". Even though North America is a "newer" market doesn't justify that a sizeable percentage of the North American market isn't satisfied with the product. This is something that needs to be considered as well.

[mcguyver]

Update to post #3.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by ZackTheRipperC

Don't forget that the most famous saying in business is "the customer is always right.". Even though North America is a "newer" market doesn't justify that a sizeable percentage of the North American market isn't satisfied with the product. This is something that needs to be considered as well.

Customer is surely entitled to his or her opinion but it does not make them right all the time everytime. 4 returned products out of over 1000 produced is not sizeable and each and everyone of them are very satisfied with their new guns. FCC will always stand by their products and retailers.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by wildcard

Customer is surely entitled to his or her opinion but it does not make them right all the time everytime. 4 returned products out of over 1000 produced is not sizeable and each and everyone of them are very satisfied with their new guns. FCC will always stand by their products and retailers.

I am assuming that those 4 returns are from Canada. Because 2 people have contacted me via PM and told me that they have returned guns for service, 2 people in Canada.

Now, what I have expressed is my opinion based on what I have seen and measured. My experience in this regard means that my opinion carries weight. I would not bothered to have posted what I have if it could not be justified. But hey, you could be right, mine could be the only FCC gun out there that has exhibited all the things I have found. Let's find out.

Here is a challenge to ASC. I know there are guys out there that have FCC guns. Want to find out what you have, I do? So, I will put my money where my mouth is. Send me your gun, I will tear it down and see what is inside. I will cover the cost of shipping to get it to me and back to you. If you want performance enhancements, like a mofiied hopup, I will do it no charge.

I will detail the internals and see how it compares to mine. This should be able to put the issue to rest once and for all.

Any takers?

PM me if you are interested.

[The CDN Hoople]

just throwing in my experience with my FCC 416 kit did have to do some modding to the barrel nut for the cross nut to fit and I had to return my lower due to the fact that it was machined to large so the motor pins would fall out and would not retain the motor and the two screws that hold the gearbox in wouldn't thread in. I contacted Chris from DTT and had the lower replaced in 3 days for shipping and haven't had a problem since

[mcguyver]

OK, thanks ASC for the responses this far. In order to keep it so that I don't have 40 guns in queue for my workbench, I have accepted only a few for comparison. I am only one guy after all with other things on my plate.

If you have been in conact with me already, no worries, I will be getting back to you today.

[mcguyver]

Massive update to post #3.

Enjoy.

[mcguyver]

Well, I took the 416 out today. It performed fine until near the the end of a hot day (30 degrees), and after about 3000 rounds, it made an awful grinding noise from the gearbox. The only possibilities are a stripped pinion gear or perhaps the sun or bevel gear.

I will update tomorrow.

Another Systema gun with FCC electronics died and smoke came out of the buffer tube.

All my backup PTWs went into use today, I would say 1/3 of all AEGs in our group failed. The heat was brutal.

[Sequential]

Wow. I wasn't expecting this from a 4 figure airsoft gun...
Updates and photos of the damage, it's an interesting read on how poorly these look made.

[archer 6]

gonna have to go with mac on this review, anyone that knows me might take a step back, i pretty much think systemas are the antichrist of airsoft, but cant deny the shit and abuse that mine has taken and i have been in the company of the fcc guns that are going down in the almost identical use and rounds that my seems to continue to function. the bright light at the end of the tunnel is that fcc seems to listen so they are willing to improve. so as a team member of a team looking at setting up completley with tw platforms, i will keep watching this verse of the systema bible be written and begrudgingly agree.... so far... cheers boys.

[mcguyver]

Well, I had a chance to look at the 416 this afternoon to see why my gearbox made an awful sound, and the gun failed to shoot. The first suspect was the motor pinion gear, as it is a known issue with FCC. This is what I found:



Nothing wrong with the pinion gear. It looks fine. Well, that means the problem lies inside the gearbox. It could be anything, one tooth broken off a single gear for example. When I openned it up, this is what I see:



Please note the metal particles on the bevel gear and in the throat of the pinion hole. If you will also note, no teeth broken or otherwise missing. Interesting indeed. As a further investigation, I decide to remove the bevel and sun gear. This is what I see:



The bevel gear has a plastic collar on the shaft. So does Systema, but the Systema is ABS, this is something else. The shaft for the sun gear floats freely, and the retaining bushing stayed in the gearbox. There is also a shim installed on the sun gear. This is very telling, I will come back to this point in a little later. But, to keep things moving, I will show you the planetaries and sector gear:



If you will note the gear lash and fit between the planetaries and the sector gear. There is a great deal of play, in fact, there is almost as much dead space between gears as there is tooth. This is a MASSIVE problem. As the gears turn under load, they "male" tooth will wipe across the face of the "female" notch in the sector gear. This is a point of wear, and a normal function of any geartrain. If the lash is good, and the tolerances tight, there is alot of tooth that would have to wear away before the gears are finished. In this case, there is very little material to wear, and failure is going to be much quicker than Systema in this regard. There is absolutely no way this gearbox would last a long time, and as this is the torque version, runnning an M160 would lead to a quick and inevitable death.

I hope you have been paying attention to my pics this far. Have you noticed something missing in all the pics of gears and the gearbox? I did as soon as I openned it up.

Grease.

There is no appreciable grease in this gearbox. In fact, there is probably barely enough to darken a paper towel. A lack of grease means wear at metal-to-metal contact points, like gears, and it will greatly accelerate said wear, leading to vastly premature failure.

But this is not the reason this gearbox failed at this time. That was due to something else:



Please note the gear lash in this picture. They are barely making contact. In fact, with the right matching of teeth between the sun and bevel gears, they will bypass each other. This is the grinding noise I heard. When the sector gear engaged the piston rack, it translated this load up the geartrain from the planetaries to the sun gear. If the sun gear stopped in the right spot, the bevel gear would just catch a fraction of a millimeter of the teeth on the sun gear. As the sun gear was under load, it would not turn and the bevel gear helical teeth would bypass and grind on the sun gear helicals. That is the failure of this gearbox.

Now, the question I had to ask was, why did this happen. Well, I found it pretty quickly. The gearbox is fatally flawed. The tolerances of the holes for gear bearings + poor gear lash + poor tolerances on gear shafts = excessive movement of the gears in lateral planes that they should not be moving in, ever. Couple this with the appalling lack of lubricant means that wear is accelerated to extreme levels. Failure was inevitable.

Now, everybody has tolerances in machined parts. It doesn't matter the manufacturer. If you were to allow a 20% tolerance in parts, you would accept probably all the parts that the manufacturer machined for you. If you wanted to accept a 10% tolerance, you might have to invest labour to measure and sort parts, and discard (at your expense) those that did not make the grade. This might drive the parts cost up 3-fold or more. If you wanted even tighter tolerances, your discard rate will be much higher, this results in even higher costs.

All this talk about tolerances, what does this mean? It means that if one gear was undersized and one oversized, the mating might be good, and likely no problems. If both were undersized, the mating would be very poor, and maybe only 10% of the tooth face makes contact. This presents an extreme load on that tooth segment, and with poor lubrication, it means failure is a certainty.

You can see how much the bevel gear moves. Note the position of my o-ring pick:




Sometimes, you end up on the losing end of tolerance differences. That is precisely what happened here. The shim on the sun gear shaft told me this right away. Systema only uses one shim in their gearbox, and it is on the bevel gear. FCC knew they had an issue of gear lash problems, that is why a shim ended up in a spot that an experienced PTW tech would find odd. This gearbox is fatally flawed, it is not repairable, it must be replaced entirely.

Now, my gun arrived to me on April 22nd of this year. Saturday was the 2-month point in my 3-month factory warranty. The question is now, will FCC honour their warranty and replace the gearbox? My review is now about a month old, and at no time have they made any effort to contact me. It is a 150% ironclad guarantee that FCC has seen everything I have written, and viewed every picture.

I have heard nothing from them. I will be contacting my retailer for further action.