FCC 416D: From the Outside In

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

I'm disappointed. As a long time Systema user, I had hoped that FCC would correct the few flaws Systema had by engineering more towards airsoft than training. Really all they have done is provided a CNC receiver, a fail in the motor and other areas, and an overly high price tag.

Their receivers were not CNC crom a billet of aluminum. They were CNC finsished from a cast alloy rough. Just like Systema.

Pretty much everything that customers assumed they had done was wrong, and everything they hoped FCC would do they did not.

[ThunderCactus]

I'm starting to think they're doing all this work on manual machines and there's no actual CNC process involved....
If there WAS a CNC process, for the volume of guns they'd be making they'd need to have some kind of easily repeatable and accurate jigs or fixtures. With the incredible amount of errors, I'd say either they're running large batches of incorrect parts and not doing sample measurements, the parts are being done small batch on manual machines with the same lack of sample measurement, or they're just accepting the first off and bad parts with the good ones.

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

Their receivers were not CNC crom a billet of aluminum. They were CNC finsished from a cast alloy rough. Just like Systema.

Pretty much everything that customers assumed they had done was wrong, and everything they hoped FCC would do they did not.

No shit? Okay, so what's with the extra large price tag? These things are worth less than a Systema. At least as far as quality, function, and performance goes. You can buy a Systema challenge kit for under $1,000, and I'm not about to pay someone to pre-assemble a useless piece of clone crap for me, assembled or not. So, $800-ish? Just for the sake of having a non-M4 TW. I was really honoring they'd go RA-Tech style with their shit. Oh well, I'm buying another Systema, and paying to have the motor modded; the perfect airsoft machine.

[ThunderCactus]

Well that's really our biggest problem with FCC. 50% more than systema for less than CTW quality.

I believe it's because all their R&D prototype stuff is legit good stuff, but their manufacturing process just destroys any quality they may have had. And they need to keep the price high just to survive. They haven't made a sustainable business, I wouldn't be surprised if they closed down in the next 2 years.

Suzutomo Coltd however seems to be what FCC wanted to be. They're making even MORE expensive parts than FCC, but they are legit 100% CNC from 7075 billet, going as far as to show off not just the in-process parts but also a glimpse of the CNC machine they're using.
They're already making receiver sets, looks like they've started making gearbox shells too.

[Ricochet]

Honestly, start off with Systema weaknesses, and go for there. Coming in under, or even tying with the benchmark is stupid. System fail, is the manufacturing of their motors, not the engineering, the manufacturing. So, create a motor of exact or better quality in "every" way, and then address the armature issue. Make the bullet proof motor. Next address the areas Systema succeeded, but could've done better. Obviously start with a custom hop-up, engineered off of the modern hop-up mod concept, but built for the user. An easier way to pull out the key and do maintenance, which I think FCC actually did, and a better way for hop adjustment. Remember it has to be as good or better than the standard, properly modded version. Next would be the receiver. CNC every receiver out of a solid aluminum, fixing Systema's mediocre receiver strength. Next, improve on the durability of all wires, boards, and electronics. Make them engineered for outdoor play, so they can survive the abuse and weather encountered in airsoft. So basically fix one issue, and advance three areas of improvement. Like RA-Tech, start off by selling the upgrade parts, ensuring their reliability and accuracy.

Beyond all that, stage two I'd recommend improving weight and realism. Go for custom aluminum barrels like Dytac, and releasing a series of stainless steel fluted inner barrels, from tight bores, to 6.1s, etc, so a guy can maximize his accuracy to BB weights and play-style. Release some customized stocks, grips, handguards, and receivers, possibly in different colors, or with specific function in mind. On and on and on.

Once you've proven that your product is what the players and market need, you can start by building complete guns if you like. I'd focus mostly on completely different platforms, ACR, 416, M249, etc. Except the AK, $&@% the AKs. LOL. Anyways, the training weapon market doesn't need anything else, especially not a higher price tag for a base product. Today, if you wanted he best airsoft platform around, you'd still get a modded Systems hop-up and modded Systema motor. Nothing beats them, so why pay more? Beyond that, I'd likely switch out the lower receiver, not that I'd have to, and I'd leave the electronics alone. Add in the fact that Systema guns have come way down in price, and I'd still rather go back in time and pay more for a Systema, knowing I'd likely have to do at least the one, maybe two, mods, than buy any of the clones.

It's not about the price in the end, it's about the product. If you can improve on function, reliability, quality, and performance, we'll spend the extra. Fail in one area, and you pretty much just wasted everyone's time.

[ThunderCactus]

M249 converted to ptw would be great, but you may need more robust boards to handle the extended full auto, and for SURE you would have to use an Tienly AEG motor. I seriously doubt the ptw motor could handle that much heat.

[Ricochet]

Honestly, for that build I'd probably engineer it so the motor is horizontal in the body or stock, but a motor upgrade may be needed. I'd still stick with the same design as the Systema one, but try and shorten it. Maybe make it fatter with bigger magnets and pinion gear. Boards aren't an issue. The technology is there.

[ThunderCactus]

The systema motors were made that way specifically so they would fit in real steel A2 grip dimensions, they're not actually better than the AEG motor style.
Actually, with the amount of room available in the M249, you could get away with using a brushless motor as well, which would be a far superior option
And I had the same idea of putting a hole in the back of the gearbox and running the motor in from the back of it

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

The systema motors were made that way specifically so they would fit in real steel A2 grip dimensions, they're not actually better than the AEG motor style.
Actually, with the amount of room available in the M249, you could get away with using a brushless motor as well, which would be a far superior option
And I had the same idea of putting a hole in the back of the gearbox and running the motor in from the back of it

Well, get on it. I want an M249, and I'm not good at making things out of metal and/or plastic.

[ThunderCactus]

And to beat a dead horse:

Friend's gun failed in game, took a preliminary look, and apart from the obvious pinion gear having slipped down, I also noticed a ridiculous amount of backlash in the gears.

So after taking it apart, issues are as follows:
-gears have excessive lash
-bevel gear was shimmed to far into the right half of the shell, causing it to wear and grind into the shell
-bevel gear axle is too tight of a fit into the right bearing, causing stress in the bearing and wearing it out (the left side bearing is fine, axle is perfect fit on that side)
-excessive lash from the sun gear to the sector
-excessive angular lash on the sector, as a result of the planetaries not being tight enough (side to side lash is expected, but not angular)
-axle of the sun gear is a bit loose in the gear
-more wear than I'd like to see after this many rounds on a sector gear
-bearing cap for the sun gear, again, is way too tight for the bearing, has crushed the bearing, and the bearing is worn out

Given the light wear between the bevel and sun gears in a gearbox with this much lash, I'd assume there haven't been many rounds put through it.
Just waiting to hear back from the owner to see if he can put date on this thing

Video of the lash here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhdb...ature=youtu.be