FCC 416D: From the Outside In

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

As a comparison, factory Systema stock ranges between 1.164"-1.167", and at no time hits 1.170". Perfect for a civi stock, no good for milspec. The stock has to be one or the other. If it is slightly too tight for milspec, it will have wobble with a civi stock. True milspec will be universal, so long as you don't mind a little wobble with your civi stock.

Well I have been in HK for the last week or so, today I finally get to play around with their stock tubes vs the real Milspec Magpul that was bought at Target sports in Toronto vs the Magpul bought here in HK at Supreme CO (their equivalent to a RS TAC shop) the difference between the two is literally minor as in the one bought in Toronto being a tighter fit, the later has a bit of movement. The issues of RS milspec stock not fitting the tubes in your gun still baffle me again th econclusion that I can come up with is your gun is a one off, I tried the MAGPUL CTR stock that I brought with me with the one of 14 AOR they have here and they fit, a bit tight but they fit and they have no wobbling

Originally Posted by 6ft4

Thanks for the great review. It is good to hear some downside about the FCC 416. So far i only heard good review and good comments about it.

FCC is a growing company with such growth there are bound to be issues, with each issues that was presented they have dealt with it swiftly however changing specs during production run can be costly that is why changes seem to be slow or non existent but rest assured changes are being made and are coming

Originally Posted by Ronald Chang

+1.

And thanks for this very detailed review and update. For sure a gun at this price should have a much better design, QC.

QC and design is definitely there, being here firsthand has educate me in how much time that they put in preparing the procedural things to make their products and all the failures and sucess before a product is launched, I can confidently say that aside from FCC there are no other company in HK that are willing to tackle the huge tasking in getting a large CNC manufacturing process done even company like Prime which I had the pleasure of speaking with the owner during one of teh games here in HK and coincedentally the office and warehouse is conveniently located just down the street from FCC claimed that there is not enough profit for them to make their body CNC like FCC and PTW market is too small for them to survive (Prime main factory is in China), their warehouse have little or no stock for PTW so the rumor of Prime abandoning PTW market is almost true. FCC 3.0 Motor has gone though 12 different changes before an actual sample has been done and each and everyone of those failed samples has a cost, the third working sample I've seen that they tested outlast a BNIB Systema motor sent out by some of their friends in JPN

Being here in HK with FCC have answered a lot of question I got and concerns I was shown every manufacturing process from the design to final assembly(which is slightly different from assembling a Systema specifically their AMBI gearbox), your 416 Brad is truly a one off wonder that I cannot see here and has puzzled even the head tech here in regards to the body fitment issue you mentioned. Unlike other Airsoft manufacturer they don't have a slew of old ladies and men assembling their products with powertools either, every single FCC custom assembled gun is done by three of their technicians.

*Even if I'm their dealer, I'm looking at this issue as a player and as a player first their reliability and performance will come first and by far aside from the gun that Tony build these FCC guns have given me no issues except for a minor issues with their selector for triburst and that was based on my own stupidity and taken care off by their warranty, dealing with them from the beginning as a player three years ago and owning 4 of their full build guns I have the total of 5 days down waiting for parts to arrive, the same cannot be said about my PTW with the exception of the one Tony build (which took 4 months) and my TW5. Your concerns about their motor has been addressed and they are releasing their 3.0 which from what I have seen is byfar the best one yet, new hop up spring and rubber to make it more applicable in the cold and of course their AMBI and other release.

[mcguyver]

I appreciate your position, Jay, however, I have not one, not two, but three FCC buffer tubes that measure the same. This is NOT a one-off anomaly that is my gun. One came on my gun, and the other two came as parts. This tells me right now that this is a systemic thing, as these buffer tubes span in purchase from last summer to last month.

If you have spoken with FCC on what I have found, and they are rectifying it, great. It means that it took me to really tear into their product to identify issues to be corrected. Unfortunately, it meant I had to spend $2920 to do it. That is overall my biggest beef. I should not be finding these things at this price level or performance level.

Now, I will take it as some manner of vindication if they are addressing these issues, as it means my gun is simply not a one-off anomaly. If there is nothing wrong, why fix anything? You can't fix what isn't broken.

[SuperHog]

For $2920, I would expect a perfect and flawless working gun. That is a lot of hard earned money. The exchange to HK dollars is @6 times and pretty sure they made profit.

Is the receiver CNC or pot metal?

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by SuperHog

For $2920, I would expect a perfect and flawless working gun. That is a lot of hard earned money. The exchange to HK dollars is @6 times and pretty sure they made profit.

Is the receiver CNC or pot metal?

profit margin on their CNC guns are not that high, if it were every airsoft manufacturer will be doing it in HK. There are a few places (3) here in HK that can do the CNC quality the same as FCC but out of the three none of them are willing to do anything bigger than triggers and flute valves (TSC) FCC also use T6 Aluminum which is as close to a controlled materials as Titanium in North America as there is not much use for T6 Aluminum here in HK other than making gun receivers, All their CNC items are either steel or T6 Aluminum no Pot metal.

Originally Posted by mcguyver

I appreciate your position, Jay, however, I have not one, not two, but three FCC buffer tubes that measure the same. This is NOT a one-off anomaly that is my gun. One came on my gun, and the other two came as parts. This tells me right now that this is a systemic thing, as these buffer tubes span in purchase from last summer to last month.

If you have spoken with FCC on what I have found, and they are rectifying it, great. It means that it took me to really tear into their product to identify issues to be corrected. Unfortunately, it meant I had to spend $2920 to do it. That is overall my biggest beef. I should not be finding these things at this price level or performance level.

Now, I will take it as some manner of vindication if they are addressing these issues, as it means my gun is simply not a one-off anomaly. If there is nothing wrong, why fix anything? You can't fix what isn't broken.

Well after being here more than a week Brad I can tell you without any hesitation that out of all the 416 full guns and kits (over 1000 units) that was sold in Europe, Asia and Canada there are about 3 that came back plus one (yours) with issues, the three that came back one of them were a failed unit that was accidentally packed as QC unit the other two were kits that was damaged during shipping. they do have a big box of failed units from the combination of CNC misallignment and blemishes from painting etc. As I have stated before they are a growing company and as such there are bound to be mistakes along the way, i agree that on a $2900 gun there should not be any lemons but there will always be imperfections, however you cant ignore the fact that there are more than a dozen of other 416 owners in Canada that have none of the issues that you mention, they were quite concern about the review so much so that they stopped the production of my 416 AMBI to re check all the specifications and measurements, my first three days here was in meetings from 8am till 2am talking about each and EVERY parts that goes through the CNC. The buffer tubes issue could be explained as only a mis labelling as it is Illegal to sell anything resemble RS dimension (especially after the whole UN company fiasco) and when you are dealing with hundred of parts between scheduled production there are bound to be mistakes, issues that happen quite often in small factories especially in tight places in HK and their buffer tubes are one of the three items that is not made in the in house production, the issues was already identified and rectified.
Things in manufacturing are and will never be perfect especially if you are selling them, if it were perfect than the company wouldn't be in business for long changes and acknowledging issues is part of reaching that close to perfection plateau. Systema for the price that they charge and years of experience in the PTW business is not perfect either but at least with FCC acknowledging their imperfection with support is either a phone call away or a few strokes on your keyboard the same can't be said about Systema don't you agree?

[ThunderCactus]

So Brad got shipped a QC failed gun is pretty much what they're saying lol
So we've established that they have a responsible attitude and WANT to build a super high quality product.
But are they going to do anything about Brad's gun? He IS the guy to please in Canada on the matter afterall...

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

So Brad got shipped a QC failed gun is pretty much what they're saying lol
So we've established that they have a responsible attitude and WANT to build a super high quality product.
But are they going to do anything about Brad's gun? He IS the guy to please in Canada on the matter afterall...

Brad and everyone that purchased FCC products have three months warranty its up to him whether he wants to use that warranty providing that the item is in original condition I have had customer returned a full complete gun because there were a improper combination of upper and lower from another retailer with no issues. Brad is not the only customer that matter in Canada in the eyes of FCC, everyone is. there are no special priviledge all warranty applied the same to all.

[mmmken]

Great review, but if both wildcard (a dealer) and FCC themselves insist that your gun was an one-off lemon and are willing to either replace or fix the issues at no cost - why not take up the offer?

As a comparison, I didn't expect any defects when I bought my brand new 2013 C350 for just a little over $65,000, but within a month the power seats completely failed. I called up my dealership and they sent a tow-truck to pick up the car free of charge because I couldn't drive it (as the seat was moved all the way forward for some reason). They gave me a rental car and fixed the problem for me within the same day covered completely under warranty.

Akin to your situation, I could have probably fixed the issue myself, but Mercedes-Benz was more than willing to resolve the problem properly. I understand that you made your own modifications to rectify the problems and probably don't want to risk another lemon (and having to redo all those modifications all over again), but by not giving FCC another chance - this review is a little unfair. Both the product itself and the after-service should be both considered equally for a review that holds any real merit.

If the gun is really as poor as you state and you aren't willing to risk a replacement, why not just ask for a refund and use the money to buy a SystemA instead - just like what you suggested in your review? I'm sure FCC would be willing to accommodate you.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by mmmken

Great review, but if both wildcard (a dealer) and FCC themselves insist that your gun was an one-off lemon and are willing to either replace or fix the issues at no cost - why not take up the offer?

I do not believe for one second it was a one-off lemon. You need to understand what I do for a living. I am an electrician, but not just any old run of the mill electrician. I get called when other electricians have problems and can't solve them. I get called to do investigations and inspections. I get called to service large multinationals that others have been unable to to, for whatever reason. I also get called to change lightbulbs, and everything in between. I am a service electrician, and we are a special breed, we get called to fix things, discover problems and fix them so it doesn't happen again.

With this in mind, I can tell right away when a problem is a tolerance issue, or simply a defective component, or perhaps simple execution errors in assembly. So, what does this mean? Basically, it means I could send it back, sure, but what would I get in return? Another of the same? At best, yes. A worse one? Possibly. A refund? Why? I purchased a product of my own free will, and I expect the product advertised, even if I have to do what the manufacturer failed to do.

As a comparison, I didn't expect any defects when I bought my brand new 2013 C350 for just a little over $65,000, but within a month the power seats completely failed. I called up my dealership and they sent a tow-truck to pick up the car free of charge because I couldn't drive it (as the seat was moved all the way forward for some reason). They gave me a rental car and fixed the problem for me within the same day covered completely under warranty.

You might have been able to fix it. Or maybe not. I can for certain make this gun better, but I shouldn't have to. Nor would I be willing to wait another 4 months to get a replacement, only to have it show up with the same issues, and require the same work all over again.

Akin to your situation, I could have probably fixed the issue myself, but Mercedes-Benz was more than willing to resolve the problem properly. I understand that you made your own modifications to rectify the problems and probably don't want to risk another lemon (and having to redo all those modifications all over again), but by not giving FCC another chance - this review is a little unfair. Both the product itself and the after-service should be both considered equally for a review that holds any real merit.

Ummm, no, it is not unfair in the least. FCC built the product and released it to a retailer who sold it to me. I do not hold the retailer responsible in any way, he did not build the thing. The factory did that. What I have noted is not a simple bad part here or there, if I found it my gun it is 110% guarranteed it was found in others, as I found out from other FCC customers after I posted this up. For better or worse, once FCC released the product, they took their chances and got hammered on it, and that is the most fair and honest part of manufacturing and retail industries. When a customer has an issue and calls the manufacturer out on it, that triggers the self-preservation mode if a company wants to survive or a We Don't Care response if survival and future business don't matter. What is unfair, truly, is that they let this product go. Luckily, I guess depending on your perspective, is that it came to me and not some guy who sunk his last penny for the next 3 years on his dream gun, only to get a let-down after openning the box on delivery.

If the gun is really as poor as you state and you aren't willing to risk a replacement, why not just ask for a refund and use the money to buy a SystemA instead - just like what you suggested in your review? I'm sure FCC would be willing to accommodate you.

I have several other TWs already. The gun is not poor, it has issues, and these are systemic upon further analysis, and there is nobody on this side of the Atlantic or Pacific more qualified than me to make it right. So sending it back is huge waste of my time, it would take less hours off my life to fix what the factory did not.

I wanted something a little more unique and little more top-shelf. At this point, I am waiting to see what FCC does, and I paid for the right to see. I dropped the ball in their court. My racquet is getting dusty.

This review is still by no means over. There is still the gearbox to open.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by wildcard

Brad and everyone that purchased FCC products have three months warranty its up to him whether he wants to use that warranty providing that the item is in original condition I have had customer returned a full complete gun because there were a improper combination of upper and lower from another retailer with no issues. Brad is not the only customer that matter in Canada in the eyes of FCC, everyone is. there are no special priviledge all warranty applied the same to all.

And what is there to warranty? The problems which I can fix have already been done, and much better than factory, if they would have even caught them, let alone rectified them in the first place. The others may yet to see warranty, time will tell, at least until my warranty runs out.

Had this gun gone to someone else, sure, it should have been returned. The performance would have suffered greatly as well as cosmetic issues, which may not have received as much attention had I not been so fussy. But fussy is good, fussy means attention to small details today that prevent big details tomorrow. Mind the pennies, and dollars take care of themselves.

I am glad that FCC cares about all their Canadian customers.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

So Brad got shipped a QC failed gun is pretty much what they're saying lol
So we've established that they have a responsible attitude and WANT to build a super high quality product.
But are they going to do anything about Brad's gun? He IS the guy to please in Canada on the matter afterall...

Essentially, I think of it as chance I happenned to get this gun. Some other issues were present on Jonas's kit, as well as on a multitude of other parts I received that are not included in this review, but noted in the other review on FCC. So, is a QC failed gun I received by chance? I know what you do for a living, what do you think?

At this point, what is FCC to do? If they are designing better parts and components, great, future guns will be better for and customers happier. I have not seen the tolerance issues in a hundred Systema guns as I have seen with FCC so far. Systema got their guns 90% perfect after many revisions and changes and departures from initial design. FCC does not need to reinvent the wheel here, we are talking simple replication of the proven components and improvements where they are warranted, and not wasting resources where they are not.

Some things, like an MOE grip and LMT sopmod stock on a 416 was just so shocking as to be laughable, when the correct items are easily and readily available. That bodes poorly for the attention to details I mentioned earlier and displays the attitude of the manufacturer. Either they don't know what their customers want, don't care or simply chose to build whatever they want, damn the consequences. I hold none of those in high regard.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

At this point, what is FCC to do? If they are designing better parts and components, great, future guns will be better for and customers happier. I have not seen the tolerance issues in a hundred Systema guns as I have seen with FCC so far. Systema got their guns 90% perfect after many revisions and changes and departures from initial design. FCC does not need to reinvent the wheel here, we are talking simple replication of the proven components and improvements where they are warranted, and not wasting resources where they are not.

One of the main reason for my visit to HK is to get answers on my small investment as I'm not willing to continue to represent the brand if their original vision of being the best have changed (Clearly this is not an issue) this is not my first venture in the airsoft business even though its far between from my last shop and the products obviously a bit better but the process are pretty much the same or no changes. What FCC has done in the past three years are leaps and bounds much like WE and RATECH. Their CNC design are from the ground up, they have taken flak and accused of copying Systema parts but in fact 90% of their parts are done from the ground up even their lower are done from scratch not copied from Systema mold like PRIME, method of CNC process are also different from PRIME, notice that PRIME really have not launch anything new in terms of body design even their 416 body are in small batches made in the factory in Taiwan based on another airsoft OEM mold, Improvements on their products are definitely happening it's just a matter of time and from what I've seen here it will only get better whether its new platform or parts. Brad keep all those motors bud especially the Systema ones there will be a special announcement made soon in relation to their 3.0 motor launch.

FYI Their buffer tube dimension was taken off a RS LMT Buffer tube

[mcguyver]

I think their buffer measurements may have been fine, but their surface finish and/or machining on the tube is inconsistant. Too much paint has the same result as milling it too large.

Or they did not account correctly for the thickness of the paint when calculating the dimensions of the raw tube.

Like I have said previously, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. Systema spent years, much money and quite a few unhappy customers to make their product what it is, and with alot of tuning and mods from guys like Tony, myself and others. At this point, they simply need to copy what we know works, make a some simple changes to things we know need improvement and male their innovations based on functional and performance enhancements like the ambi gearbox, and not try to worry about a low friction gearbox idea.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

I think their buffer measurements may have been fine, but their surface finish and/or machining on the tube is inconsistant. Too much paint has the same result as milling it too large.

Or they did not account correctly for the thickness of the paint when calculating the dimensions of the raw tube.

Like I have said previously, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. Systema spent years, much money and quite a few unhappy customers to make their product what it is, and with alot of tuning and mods from guys like Tony, myself and others. At this point, they simply need to copy what we know works, make a some simple changes to things we know need improvement and male their innovations based on functional and performance enhancements like the ambi gearbox, and not try to worry about a low friction gearbox idea.

From what I was shown they have account for the coating but the LMT buffertube construction is different from others that I have seen, their buffertube seems to be made in three sections, now the coating that LMT uses are not available here in HK, the coating from LMT has some sort of lubricant consistency. In regards to copying Systema they would not do it as it will pretty much go against the company beliefs. Coming to HK and have them took me around has open my eyes to bad and good points of airsoft it has been a while but pretty much with the exception of a few they are all the same, there are a few new start up company here that is not in the local mainstream airsoft channel like FCC and some of their product is quite innovative but very specialized, ie TM high cycle custom parts, WE parts, FCC etc. and the bad are the huge influx of ACM company and their retailers like COP9

[Azathoth]

Originally Posted by wildcard

The buffer tubes issue could be explained as only a mis labelling as it is Illegal to sell anything resemble RS dimension (especially after the whole UN company fiasco)

Thanks for clarifying Jay, Not going to buy a FCC "milspec" buffer tube. I really dislike the shiny systema factory tubes and doesnt appear to be an "option" out their.

What i would REALLY like to see is a system that can shoot ~10+joules reliably. Electronics that can survive full submersion and continue to function.

[ThunderCactus]

uh....why not just buy a GBBR?
1050fps, might be able to do that on N2 pretty easily lol