Running an Elcan C79 (3.4X) in CQB

[MaybeStopCalling]

[ORIGINAL QUESTION]

I guess this applies to any magnified optic, but it's been something that's been perplexing me for a while and I'd like to pick your brains.

My rifle is set up with an Elcan. It provides great viewing ability in field conditions and I enjoy the ability to pin someone down from further out than I normally would. The issue is when I go CQB- IE: Clear a structure in the middle of a field game. I'm at an obvious disadvantage there.

[2015 UPDATE]

So, given how slow the tactics area is, I stumbled on this thread and found that I had actually tried all these methods in the two years since I posted. So here are my lessons learned.

1. Front Mounted, Offset T-1 Red-Dot

Result: Tried this entire setup for a day, then it went into the trash. The recoil of firing the rifle caused the dot to consistently come off target, and as it was front mounted, the viewing window was rather small and reacquiring the sight wasn't too easy. As well, I found that mounting accessories that far forward causes one to constantly bump them into objects such as barriers or walls. Not a problem for a real optic, but for a repro mounted on a repro mount... it was never worth the re-zeroing. I will say that it was the most precise of all methods for the first shot, and if one were on a low recoil platform (Read: AEG) one should be fine. Moving it back on a RAS also helped, though by then, it just looked ugly (Yes, I know, function over form)

2. Point Shooting, With Thumb

Result: Originally I used the front sight, which was an acceptable, if poor method of running things. User Redneck Jimbo suggested I point with my thumb instead, and after using this method, this was a surprisingly accurate outcome. In a few games before I quit playing, I was able to consistently score hits at 10-20 metres on another player, by aligning my finger on the handguard (this is much easier with a KAC or other RIS/RAS as it has a divot for you to put your thumb in). The downside is it's oriented to speed, not accuracy, so once you lose the speed advantage, another player who is aiming has the advantage. Not bad for a free option. Definitely would use if I only had a rifle.

3. BAC Technique

Result: Does not work on unlit optics. Does work on unlit optics, but requires absolute clarity. I was able to try this out with a Spectre at Ultimate Airsoft a few times. It works surprisingly well once you train your mind to do it. The downside (and I'm not sure if this is just limited to reproduction optics) is once your eye protection starts fogging up, your dot turns into a red smear that is unusable. Definitely would love to try it on a real optic with better eye relief, and I think there's potential there.

4. Sidearm

Result: I always thought that a sidearm would be outmatched by a rifle, but at the CQB ranges I was trying to use the rifle at, it was effective. Obviously it requires a bit of training on transitioning, as well as a proper draw, but it ended up being the option I went with. The hardest part about this was having to count my shots, and transition from a mindset of "More firepower" to a mindset of "Mobility". With the pistol, something has to change. Either you press forward and close the gap, or you retreat to live another day... I mean game.

5. Conclusion

Out of all of these options, I would say 4 was the best, but 2 was the easiest. With the price of variable optics coming down, it might be something worth looking into. I never play these days, so my target shooting is limited to paper with ironsights. Maybe somebody with more experience will read this update and post, but there you go. Looking back at the money I spent on stuff I discarded... I should have just bought an Aimpoint Pro or EoTech 512 and called it a day.


Thanks!

[Zack The Ripper]

I used one on my SCAR-L for Nightfall 1 at PRZ which is pretty well exclusively CQB. Had no issues using the crumby iron sights on top and long hallways I would keep both eyes open and use the scope. Certain situations I would prefer my sidearm.

[Derpystronk]

The "Right Answer": Encorporate some backup iron sights / red dot into your weapon platform in some way. If you have the space 45 degree offset a T1 Micro or a Doctor to your top rail (1:30 position)

The "Airsoft Answer": Attach a high power weapon light with a tight beam to your TRIAD rail. Make sure you have a way to utilize momentary on/off. Strobe function optional, but incredible fun if used. Aim using the light as your primary reference and adjust tracking BB's. In medium to low light levels a high enough flashlight can disrupt enemy aiming capabilities and make it difficult to return fire, as well as the obvious point of not having to bring your weapon up to begin shooting

The "Compromise Answer": Attach a 45 degree offset to your TRIAD rail, attach red dot / doctor to it

The "I don't need this to be authentic anymore answer": Remove Elcan and attach new 4x optic with room for or just includes built in BUS capabilities

The "Paintball Answer": Bring rifle up so your eyes are parallel with the bore. shoot liek a baus!!!!!

[Gato]

Those nubs at the top of the site, line em up as you would irons. They're a rough cqb sight. Not pinpoint, but good enough to get the job done in room clearing.

[Kokanee]

Simple solution; you should be dropping your rifle and transitioning to a pistol to clear structures. Get yourself a nice sling for your rifle and a good pistol, then away you go.

[MaybeStopCalling]

Gato: I have no idea how you use those nubs on top of the Elcan, I keep losing my aim trying to use them.

Kokanee: I have a MS3 on the C8, and a Glock as my sidearm- I just tend to view the sidearm as my ultimate last option and try to avoid using it when I can. The idea of going up against someone with an automatic long arm with only a pistol feels very lopsided to me.

Deltastone: I would offset the T-1 on the top rail, but the Elcan takes up nearly all the rail space. I'd see the TRIAD as a good option, but suffering from POI shift (You'd think the CF would adopt a RAS but that's an argument for another day)

I'm leaning towards the sidearm option at the moment.

[marac]

Try marking those nubs, bright painted dots, e.g. red at the back of nubs could help with your alignment.

[BloodDrinker]

Originally Posted by MaybeStopCalling

Gato: I have no idea how you use those nubs on top of the Elcan, I keep losing my aim trying to use them.

Kokanee: I have a MS3 on the C8, and a Glock as my sidearm- I just tend to view the sidearm as my ultimate last option and try to avoid using it when I can. The idea of going up against someone with an automatic long arm with only a pistol feels very lopsided to me.

Deltastone: I would offset the T-1 on the top rail, but the Elcan takes up nearly all the rail space. I'd see the TRIAD as a good option, but suffering from POI shift (You'd think the CF would adopt a RAS but that's an argument for another day)

I'm leaning towards the sidearm option at the moment.

I have a Differant Elcan The Specter DR...

The Lil back up irons on the top rock not sure if the Model you has has them any where near as good

Learn to use em I like the fact that i can Shoot left handed with them

[MaybeStopCalling]

Marac: That's not a half bad idea, the lady friend will be confused as to why I'm borrowing her nail polish but it just might work.

BloodDrinker: Alas, I have the CF issue sight, as pictured here. The ghost ring on the Spectre is leaps and bounds beyond, plus you can attach a Docter sight on top.

[Redneck Jimbo]

Not shur if it's still done this way but I learned in the forces to place the rifle slightly to the right of centre chest and use my off hand index finger to aim for cqb/fibua. Took some getting used to but it works realy well out to 25m or so.

[Wilkie]

you'd think the CF would adopt a RAS but that's an argument for another day

Every C8 I've handled has had a RIS system similar to that of the m4a1.


Try holding the weapon in a "C Grip" fashion, basically extending your non trigger hand as far as your handguard will allow, with your hand almost on top of the handguard, rather than bellow. Point your index finger directly down the barrel. This will allow greater control while sweeping, and cause your rifle to point where you Point.

Now situate the stock closer to the centre of your chest, rather than your shoulder, allowing you to effectively look down the barrel. Keep both eyes open, and your body fairly stiff


This guy isn't doing the finger thing, but I find it helps if you don't have a AFG, especially if you are without a usable means of sighting. Without an Afg I put my hand even higher up.

[MaybeStopCalling]

Originally Posted by -Skeletor-

Plus, others just buy it.

In your experience, do most units accept such a thing, or are the majority of units strict on weapons layout and setup? I'd like to stay as close to issued or what one would likely encounter in the CF.

[Wilkie]

CF or LEO C8s? Do you know if it was a issue or private purchase RAS?
.

CF. the CFB Shilo Recce and Sniper barracks armoires are lined with em.

I shouldn't say every C8 that I've handled has one, I should have said most I guess.

A little bird (one who works at the armory lol) said there may be free float handguards in the works. I wouldn't hold my breath for now, but it something to look forward to

[Wilkie]

I imagine they are private unit perchase then, as I believe they were all like that, in those two armoires. Nether unit is very big so I could see that happening