$600+ AEG's. Internal Quality.

[War-Lock]

Hey ASC!

I've been looking to step-up my AEG weapon system.

I noticed that most of the $600+ AEG's like the Magpul PTS ACR's, or the Unimax H&k 416 have the trades, and are replicas of the real steel counterparts which is fantastic but is this the reason for the 200-300 doller bump in price?

- Also Do you get an above average internals with these AEG's?

-A better compression? Trigger response? able to take a more powerful battery? upgrade-ablity? (not sure if that's a word) etc..


I have always used TM AEG's , G3A3, MP5, and AK47's which compared to the Chinese knock off's i put side by side to compare have seemed more reliable, upgrade able, and consistent.


Thanks guys

/end confusion :duke:

[lurkingknight]

what's the difference?

you are paying extra money that goes through cybergun or umarex who take a cut before giving it to HK, FN, etc to put those trades on them.

A little extra might go into the materials used or the process in which they are made, but mechanically speaking, there's not much difference sometimes between a high end gun vs a mid level and even a low end one.

[Hectic]

The Umarex 416 (made by vfc the handed over to umarex cause they have the h&k licensing rights)
Are a work of beauty externally and as far as my research went they are solid inside as well. As far as the magpul pts stuff i hear they are sub par but thats just what i hear. I have held both the 416 and 417 offerings from Umarex/VFC and id reccomend them for sure if you love the 416 like i do there is no better replica (probably equal to or better then the Hurricane kit from back in the day) just plain sexy if i had the funds and could find a non US one (cause they have a big ugly safety disclaimer on the right side) id be all over one.

[Curo]

VFC and G&P (which a shim and relube) are excellent platforms. So are they new classic army guns.

Umarex is just a VFC rebrand.

Magpul PTS Masada looks awesome and the quick change spring makes it easy to change springs. The realistic bolt and release are really awesome IMO. But theARES internals are average and will eventually break. Now this wouldn't be a huge problem but certain parts can be really really hard to get a hold of.

[Stealth]

In a word? Yes, more expensive guns usually have better internals.

However this isn't some wholly over-arching statement to include all $600+ airsoft guns. Unfortunately for you, you happened to name one of them - the Mapgul PTS ACR. Internally the mechbox shell sucks and it uses a proprietary microswitch.

That having been said - I'm assuming you're referring to G&P, VFC, LCT and Real Sword as those are the only manufacturers above the $600 mark - these AEGs tend to be at least COMPETITIVE out of the box and relatively problem-free for the first season.

What most people realize is that it's not just the overall quality of the gun that they're paying for but better quality control. ACM companies like A&K, JG, DBoys, King Arms, etc. - in an effort to sell solely based on volume and undercut everyone - takes the eye off the ball on quality control and that's where you get the underperforming guns a lot of the time.

Now, if I got $5 for every time somebody posted an issue with their King Arms M4... I'd probably have enough to buy myself a VFC SR15...

[cetane]

Now, if I got $5 for every time somebody posted an issue with their King Arms M4... I'd probably have enough to buy myself a VFC SR15...

But for the $$$ you do get a pretty good aeg ootb. Very nice externals. Workable internals. Once they go for shit, lonex drop in...

[Freudster]

I'm a Magpul Masada fan, I'll admit it. LOL The internals are average though, this is true. There are some aftermarket upgrades etc, but when you're shelling out $600 for a gun, I feel kinda cheated you have to replace something right off the bat.
The proprietary parts, (micro-switch, cutoff lever, hopup) are annoying, but I've never had a problem with mine.

I'd say its the whole "You get what you pay for" ...

[Zack The Ripper]

It really depends on a few things.

Certain brands use proprietary parts which sometimes are a bit better, but compatibility and pricing are usually a problem.

It also depends on what kind of platform you are going with, whether it be an M4/M16, AK series, SMG, or other models like SCARs, Bullpup style, etc. These all have their own pros and cons ranging from battery space to compatibility with other parts and accessories.

I've always liked M4 platforms because you can find many decent stock M4 models with solid externals and decent internals that you easily upgrade. AKs are on the same level IMO as there is alot of part interchangeability between brands. SCARs are generally made with solid internals and out of the box generally need very little, if anything, done to them. However, to my knowledge there are some spec differences between brands that may limit certain parts being usable in one model whereas it may not be usable in another. This is just an example. Personally for me, G&G makes great guns for out-of-the-box play, and all of their rifles have great external quality. I have held and played around with several different models and they are all very solid, even the ones comprised of polymer bodies, which is rare to find. I personally own a G7G SCAR-L, and the only thing done to it is the hop-up rubber was replaced with a brand new G7G rubber, has a tight bore barrel, and has the connectors changed to deans. Polymer lower and an aluminum upper; this thing has been tossed and dropped more times than I'd care to remember, and after a year of play and probably 20k+ BBs through it the only thing that has ever broken inside it was the tiny little trigger spring, which simply required replacing and $2.00 for the spring itself. The thing is a laser. Total for the base model is $460 I believe.

If you want a lower end gun to upgrade very inexpensively, CYMA's AK are all beasts out of the box and require as little as a shim job, TBB if you want it and maybe a different hop-up if you're super picky, however my CYMA AK was a laser as well and the only things done to it was I downgraded the spring because it shot hot, changed it to deans, and had the gear box shimmed. Tight groups and a veeery long distance. Total for that one was $230.

This is a good comparison because both guns have about the same range and grouping size, same RoF, and overall the same performance, yet there is a 50% difference in price. Because the SCAR is a less common build and contains full FN Herschel trades, it costs more, but performs very similarly to a slightly upgraded CYMA AK. It's a tricky pick, and again, goes back to what platform you would want to use, and if you are willing to put $50 into it to fine tune things.

[ThunderCactus]

+1 to everything
But keep in mind, that like a car, even the top end guns are prone to failure.

Even PTWs break down, it's just a fact of airsoft.
But the difference between a $300 king arms and a $600 G&P is the quality of the metal body, and slightly better internals. Every manufacturer has their weaknesses too.
But an airsoft gun is a long term investment for some, and should be treated that way. Best to start with a good base and build on it to make something really good. As opposed to starting with a poor base, spending $150 on upgrades, and still having crap.

Figuratively, if you buy a dodge dakota and jam a 6.7L diesel engine in it, it's still just a dodge dakota. You'll never tow 25,000lbs with it.
You buy an AEG, and it will never be a PTW, no matter what you do to it. You buy a $200 clone and it will never be as good as a G&P. And that's just the way it is

[iKliiu]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

You buy an AEG, and it will never be a PTW, no matter what you do to it. You buy a $200 clone and it will never be as good as a G&P. And that's just the way it is

I would disagree with this statement. If you buy an Marui compatible AEG, it will never be a PTW because there are simply differences in their design. In most cases, the AEG will be better than the PTW, if you know what you are doing.

A $200 clone with upgrades is easily better than a G&P, such as Dboys' full steel AKs with fine tuning. Dboys/Cyma have become victims of the terms "clone" and "poor base", even though their internals are superior to most stock brands.

[Socks]

When i bought my first airsoft rifle I was having a really hard time choosing between all the different brands and styles. I knew i DIDNT want an m4 though because of how common they are and with all the wobble between the rails and shit.

Then I saw the G&P MRP and instantly knew it was what I wanted despite it being over the price I set for myself. Damn thing looks beautiful, fires smooth like butter, and has sexy trades all over it.

[ThunderCactus]

Originally Posted by iKliiu

I would disagree with this statement. If you buy an Marui compatible AEG, it will never be a PTW because there are simply differences in their design. In most cases, the AEG will be better than the PTW, if you know what you are doing.

A $200 clone with upgrades is easily better than a G&P, such as Dboys' full steel AKs with fine tuning. Dboys/Cyma have become victims of the terms "clone" and "poor base", even though their internals are superior to most stock brands.

I'm sure that information comes from your 6 years of gunsmithing experience right?
In WHAT cases will the AEG be better than the PTW? Because I've built dozens of REALLY REALLY good AEGs, and they still don't outperform my PTW.
Hell it even gives my VSR-10 a run for it's money shot for shot in terms of accuracy and range.

If you're talking about cost effectiveness, then yes, and AEG will beat a PTW every time. The $1200-$2000 price gap isn't worth the 15% performance increase to most people.

[iKliiu]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

I'm sure that information comes from your 6 years of gunsmithing experience right?
In WHAT cases will the AEG be better than the PTW? Because I've built dozens of REALLY REALLY good AEGs, and they still don't outperform my PTW.

Let's narrow performance down to these categories: range, accuracy, rate of fire, trigger response; as these are the most practical categories during a airsoft game. Please, add others as these are the ones that are on the top of my head.

Range: a R-hop can be installed in AEGs easily. R-hops increase range immensely, such as allowing 1 J guns to shoot effectively over 60 m.

Accuracy: A polished / lapped Prometheus barrel combined with a R-hop, probably as accurate as you can get with spherical ammo.

Rate of Fire: Using just a 7.4v LiPo, a DSG/13:1 gear set and a good neodymium motor both allow a gun to shoot at 30 RPS.

Trigger Response: Switch the battery to a 11.1V (of course, along with a MOSFET) in the setup above, and the trigger response should be in the milliseconds. An advanced mosfet, such as the BTC Chimera or BTC Spectre, will even give normal AEGs an hair trigger (which can also be achieved without the mosfet, but is much easier with one)

These are the most high end upgrades though (ex: $100 for DSG, $100 for MOSFET, $50 for Lonex motor), but similar performance is still obtainable on a budget (ex: $25 for 13:1, $15 IRF3034 FET, $25 SHS motor). Even PTWs require upgrades parts in order to run smoothly too, such as a FCC motor and circuits.

[ThunderCactus]

Yeah but you missed the two big ones, range and accuracy.

PTW's come stock with high quality barrels, and they're thicker walled which means they stay straighter. You can also get a higher quality barrel for about the same cost as a prometheus barrel.

We haven't seen compelling evidence that R-hops give better range than high quality hop rubbers yet, and the PTW uses a hop chamber similar to an M14, which is the best kind of hop adjuster. Coupled with the tack/mac mod, they shoot ridiculously far and accurately. Also, it IS possible to R-hop a PTW, both on the stock adjuster, and with the new chamber that allows you to use inferior AEG barrels.

The air nozzle on the PTW is really where everything comes together. The lack of a tappet plate reduces friction, vibration, bounce, delay and all the other tappet plate problems. You're guaranteed that the air nozzle is forward AND stopped moving when the piston is released. It's the reason why PTW's are so much more accurate than AEG's during full auto.

Already comes with a mosfet and is ready to use an 11.1v LiPo with stock electronics (that are able to handle up to 16v). But the biggest advantage by far in trigger response is it's 3mm trigger pull. You wouldn't believe how many PTW users get accused of using full auto when they're actually in semi.
There's also a new FCC trigger you can buy to cut down the trigger pull to 1mm, and the pull force down to 12 or 4oz.

ROF, I've seen them go as high as 23RPS, might be able to get a bit more, but they don't have DSGs so you can absolutely get higher ROF on an AEG. But without a shortened trigger pull you'll have a hard time trying to get shots off faster in semi.

Now I used to argue you could build an AEG to perform as well as a PTW too. Well, you can build an AEG to perform as good as or better than a stock PTW. But you'll have a damned hard time trying to get it to perform better than a hop-modded PTW.
Even then every component you buy for your AEG, the AEG body itself, needs to be top quality and extremely accurate. And you need to have a crack gunsmith put it all together, and pull out every trick in the book to stabilize and shim everything.

If we're debating cost of upgrading the guns to be perfect, costs $275 to upgrade a PTW to be amazing, that's a hop and motor mod. You don't actually need new electronics, I bought an FCC mosfet to have a shorter board so I could put a LiPo in the buffer tube, still using the systema optics board which is an '08.
Costs over $800 and a REALLY good gunsmith to make an AEG shoot as well and RELIABLY as a PTW. Assuming there are no defects in the AEG body, quirks in the mechbox, hop chamber issues, etc.

The only other gun that performs on par with or better than a PTW is a bolt action rifle, and like I said, it even gave my VSR-10 a run for it's money.

[rainzoro]

Ive seen seriously hundreds of threads discussing accuracy, but not a single objective test report.

I wanna see something like,
5 inch grouping at 30m distance after firing 20 of 2.5g Green Devil BBs with a 13.5inch prometheus inner barrel Systema PTW modded with stock motor. Tested in a indoor environment with no wind interference.

I want FACTS not OPINIONS