Hi-Capa 4.3 : Creation Outer Barrel Compatibility with PGC slide

[jaoquinz]

Originally Posted by ILLusion

That kit is not mounted to the outer barrel - it's mounted to the inner barrel (unless PDI has a 4.3 barrel mount now... last time I checked, they didn't).

If it's attached to your inner barrel, that does you no good, as the inner barrel being pulled forward does not equal the outer barrel being pulled forward.

Unfortunately, for the 4.3, there are very little options as far as adding a compensator....

Hmm... I'm all ears for any other options from anyone then.

Originally Posted by ILLusion

The only other option I can think of is creating a sleeve at the end of your outer barrel, so that when the slide rams forward, it will strike that bushing to pull the outer barrel forward. The problem is finding a material that can hold up to the impact forces as well as finding a way to secure it to the barrel.

Sound like tht would work.. except I don't have the a milling machine... unless I can find a cone barrel that has a bushing at the muzzle end.

What about I try the spring in the barrel mod, but instead of attaching the spring to the inner barrel, it is loaded against the outer barrel. Meaning that the spring pushes the outer barrel away from the hop-up unit at default. Haha I'm just making up things right now.

Originally Posted by ILLusion

That... I can't fully answer. It could be a weight issue, it could also be the fact that steel is much stronger than aluminum. It's less brittle and can be harder. Put steel up against aluminum, and aluminum will almost always lose, unless you use some super soft untreated steel versus a treated and hardened aluminum (which isn't the case with airsoft materials.)

Hmm.. still unable to figure out how come the steel chamber did not work BEFORE the damage to the slide occur. I only bought the SD chamber AFTER trying the Creation chamber, which didn't work when the slide was whole and undamaged.

I'm that close to changing it back to the stock plastic barrel soon.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by jaoquinz

What about I try the spring in the barrel mod, but instead of attaching the spring to the inner barrel, it is loaded against the outer barrel. Meaning that the spring pushes the outer barrel away from the hop-up unit at default. Haha I'm just making up things right now.

I was actually going to suggest that, but I'm too tired to form those words right now. I'm just glad you already saw it and figured it out for yourself. saved me some effor.t

[jaoquinz]

Haha sorry mate, I'm still grieving right now.

Will try it tonight and if that doesn't work, plastic barrel it is and steel chambers on sale for cheap.

[RacingManiac]

ILLusion, the main issue with their(ProG4/Airsoft Surgeon)'s older design is the absence of a lug on the left side, where your new lug is. Looking at both the Nova and SD slide they all have an substantial lug on that side contacting the left side of the chamber. Whereas on the ProG4 slide it is just a raise portion with some chamfering. Which I think makes a lot of sense considering how the Marui chambers are cut and you can get a lot more material built into the back side then the ejection port side. Maybe in their goal to make lighter slide they sacrificed that...

[ILLusion]

Yeah, I think so too.

Looking at jaoquinz pictures of his PGC slide, it looks like it was built the same way as the old models of the AS slides. The only purpose that part had was to keep the loading muzzle from shooting too far forward. I suppose at the time, they never thought about the barrel.

Talking to my contact there, he said that the original engineering designs were all based on compensated and/or hybrid type builds (seems that's all they were interested in building at the time for some superbling pistols), which added a 6th & 7th impact point and they would never have any problems with lugs 3 or 4 and they never considered lug 5 until recently when I started ragging on them. lol

[RacingManiac]

make sense, I think before they start making Davidson Custom/Airsoft Surgeon mass produced stuff they were making slide for someone like "Fire" airsoft shop and stuff...which were all uber-bling-tastic racers....and most of which were WAs, and I have no idea how those are setup in terms of these detail...

[johnnyrico]

I have a quick question in regards to this topic.

I was wanting to get a Airsoft Surgeons slide and a Guarder One Piece steel barrel.

Am I to understand that this would be a bad combination and would end in the same situation / damage?

This slide:
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...l?prodID=25925

With this barrel:
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...l?prodID=25320

Stay away from this combo?

Thank you for your advice....

Rico

[ILLusion]

DON'T GET GUARDER OUTER BARRELS

Did i say that right? Hang on, let me say it one more time so that it's clear

DON'T GET GUARDER OUTER BARRELS

I've always had problems with them, and many other users have as well - you'll have way more problems if you start mixing brands, especially precision parts such as the Airsoft Surgeon slides.

btw... if you want Airsoft Surgeon slides, talk to me, I can get those in for you, and cheaper than through Redwolf.

[jaoquinz]

Alright quick update.

I tried the spring in the outer barrel trick and there's progress! Brought the outer barrel up and away from the hop-up all the time in the slide and minimised the slamming into lug 3A and 3B. However, with too strong a spring, the outer chamber would stay up and forward all the time and bind against the slide ie. chamber would not tilt down to facilitate the slide's action backward. So it was eaither sanding the slide's top underside until it allowed the chamber through (which would be a lot of material to sand away) or tweaking with the spring until there was just the right amount of loading to allow both the tilting action and for it to jump back into the chamber breach. In the end I found that the loading needed was very little in fact.

So even though it's far from finish, I'm happy with some progress so far. This should be a useful mod to hi-capas in general to minimise impact ie. damage on the slide.

So right now there's still a little binding of the outer chamber with the slide when racked back (still need more tweaking of the spring's loading inside the barrel), might try a non-linear spring so that it's easier to compress ie. chamber gives way easily to faciliate the tilt, but springs back reliably as well. I think the best combination would be as I mentioned, and the rear of the outer chamber still impacting the slide chamber breach's rear but only slightly to bring it back to battery. Will fill in the slide's initial damage with some nylon later to facilitate the outer chamebr going upwards into the slide chamber breach.

I'll report back on how it goes next time I get time to mess around with the gun.

[RacingManiac]

what kind of spring? I haven't been able to find one lying around here that works fits the dimensional requirement....

[jaoquinz]

A spare stock p226 recoil spring mate.

I just enlarged the inner diameter by flexing the spring a little and adjusting it slightly. You only need it larger on the last 4 or 5 coils on the muzzle end, to push the barrel and chamber forward SLIGHTLY. You might want it tight ie. stock recoil spring diameter on the hop-up unit end so it doesn't slide up and down the inner barrel. I secured the spring with some electrical tape. Snip off some coils if you have too much loading. You only need a little.

I'll take some pictures next time.

[ILLusion]

Glad to hear it worked.

I've found the internal spring techniques to work... but it does take some fiddling to get it right. However, I've only tried loading them so that they would naturally pull the outer barrel back. It works well for my hybrid setups, because the slide uses the hybrid stack as the extra smash point.

I generally use the stock recoil springs after upgrading them to enhanced ones. Like jaoquinz mentions, it is a bit tight, but some tweaking with a pair of pliers along all coils will open it up a bit to move a bit more freely on the inner barrel. I generally only use about 6 coils or less. Very little is needed.

[jaoquinz]

Thanks for the advice guys.

Yeah I wish I had another impact point on my slide then all my troubles would be solved.

Illusion, the loading of the spring to push the barrel backwards is to prevent the chamber from rubbing against the slide isn't it? But with this setup ultimately the outer chamber still needs impact points on the slide to push the chamber forward and up into battery. Looks like the PGC slide's impact points are just too weak to take the abuse from a steel chamber. No wonder I always see that the pre-upgraded guns usally have plastic outer chambers.

My setup with the spring loading pushing the barrel forward minimises the damaging smash of the impact points on the slide lugs, but it now creates a dilemma of intermittent binding between the slide top underside and the outer chamber (which is being pushed forward and up by the spring inside) and thus not a very smooth cycle. Anyone with any ideas on how to remedy this?

Still keen on finding a compensator that fits on the outer barrel other than the SD limcat one. Emailed PGC to see if they still have any in stock. Hoping for a miracle as most retailers say that they're not any around anymore. If you guys have any ideas please let me know.

Of course the hybrid setup would be awesome, however trying to reuse the old slide. Was a present from my lady so not gonna scrap it.

[ILLusion]

I personally haven't seen any pre-upgraded guns with plastic chambers... I usually see them with metal.

You just happened to pick up a bad combo. :P

And yes, the spring loaded to push the barrel backwards is to prevent chamber rubbing against the slide.

[jaoquinz]

Sigh.. just my luck then. I assumed that a PGC slide with a SD chamber would be a good combo. But that was probably too late after the intial damage from the Creation chamber.

Still looking for a compensator...