EoTech 552 on hanguard?

[Shirley]

Thanks for the great answers
Huangs is fine with viewing placed on the handguard.
The EoTech will get fried on the real steel. Also yes, placing it on the front gives your more play for difficult positions. I was researching it at school, but it is true. Ming_the_Merciless is right.

[Crunchmeister]

Originally Posted by Dracheous

With mine, I've had the opposite, I find it stays crips no matter how far or close to it I look at it. And that when placed further away it does not "blot out" my target when they are at maximum ranges.

My HurricanE reticle stays crisp and defined too, but it grows significantly. The Huang 552 reticle is very thin, so even when larger, is still thinner than the Hurricane's at normal distance.

[Endymion]

Originally Posted by Crunchmeister

My HurricanE reticle stays crisp and defined too, but it grows significantly. The Huang 552 reticle is very thin, so even when larger, is still thinner than the Hurricane's at normal distance.

"Grows" in what way? With the real EOTech holosights, the reticule is calibrated to appear focused at a set distance. i.e. regardless how near or far the physical sight is from your eye, the reticule appears to remain the same size on target. Naturally if you're focused on the physical sight itself, then the reticule appears to "grow" in the window.

[Crunchmeister]

Yeah, but these aren't holosights. They're rds. They don't act the same as a real one.

[Ming_the_Merciless]

Originally Posted by Ace of Spades

If you have any experience with the gas system on AR's and the unreliability of EOtechs around heat, you will understand why I say that who ever puts an EOtech on the hand guard of a real M4 is a giant retard. EOtechs are know to malfunction and stop working when under high heat and the gas expelled and the heat generated by the system are enough to compleatly fry all of the electronics in it. L3 states in the user manual not to put it on the rail, only the receiver.

Could you elaborate more on how heat is an issue for the EOTechs if mounted on the hand-guard opposed to the upper receiver on an M4/M16/AR? I did some thinking and I can see it becoming an issue if someone is running a gas-piston setup with a hand guard past or near the gas block. As an example I’ve seen many AK users with craptastic-plastic AK quad-rails with optics there, and after say 500 rounds seeing the hand-guards melt while caking a good optic.

So, I assume your speaking about a gas piston setup like LWRC, LMT MRP, or aftermarket drop ins like Bushmaster, PWS, and the like. Which as far as I know aren’t common in the LE/Military community, though it cycles the gun better for SBR (Short-Barrel-Rifle) users, but on a properly functioning DI (Direct Impringement) gas system there should be little to no gas leakage on the gas block. (Note: If you had a newly installed FSB – Front Sight Base or gas tube, you may have some leakage, but would seal over time with carbon build-up.) However on a gas piston setup the gases exit from the gas block and are not thrown back to the gas key to the BCG, thus why the BCG (Bolt Carrier Group) can be touched after rapid fire or repeated rounds, because what throws the BCG back is a rod opposed to 26 - 30 thousand PSI from a M4 length DI gas system.

Where I can see mounting an EOTech on a hand-guard rail w/ gas piston system will cause problems is the heat dispelled around the gas block. I don’t remember if it was an LWRC or LMT MRP, but after 1K or more the carbon gets caked onto the area forward of the gas block, not to mention that area gets hot faster than a DI system. Carbon build up around and forward of the gas block isn’t going to cause any weapon malfunction, but I can see how the high temperature there can cause optics failure.

I run a 512 on my AR, and the twos compliant I have had was the battery life isn't as high as they advertise even with Lithiums, and the mount can be cumbersome for QD, thus why I use a LaRue riser. Moreover, keep in mind I don't have a full-auto lower, nor do I do put a high sustained rapid fire secession to get the barrel/upper end so hot that I need neoprene gloves to shoot. So I really haven't seen nor heard of the problem with high temperature causing EOTech failure or problems. Interestingly enough I do remember that high temperatures causing 30mm scope rings to come loose and thus shifting of the Aimpoint, part of the reason why the CompM4 has an integrated mount opposed to a tube. However, the primary problem I have heard from about the EOTech users was that the spring/rubber housing inside the the battery compartment sets after time, and that combined with recoil can cause intermittent on/off of the HWS. This problem is being addressed by L3, with the introduction of that XPS series, (http://www.eotech-inc.com/products.php?id=1). Lastly I remember correctly both the Aimpoint & EOTechs are rated somewhere between 5 to 160 degrees celcius, so whatever gets placed there with a gas-piston system will get fried equally.

Again I just don’t see how it would cause a problem with a direct-impingement system, well unless it’s under a long-sustained full-auto fire, but then your more worried about the barrel warping. I’ll see if I can find that DoD PDF where they did a study comparing the M16 v M4 gas length system along with the torture test to get an estimate on approximate life-time of the weapon under sustained full-auto fire.

EDIT: Just realized most airsofters probably have never shot a real gun.

Here is a great link that demonstrates how an direct impingment AR works:
http://www.barnesengineering.com/AR1...tion/index.htm

However with the gas piston, replace the gas tube with a rod & spring, and instead the 25 to 30 thousand PSI is thrown on a piston which pushes the piston/rod, which in turn pushes against the BCG to cycle the gun, and the gas get deflected out of the gas block.

[Blackthorne]

Barrel radiates heat.

Heat soaks into front end (especially on a nice Swiss cheese aluminum free float)

From the front end the eat migrates into the EOTech. I don't think he mean gas actually comes out of the rifle and directly hits the optic.

Mounted on the upper its protected from the majority of that heat.

[Drake]

All those pics seem to want to use the optics in a co-witness setup.

But the reason optics are mounted forward is usually what's called a Scout Mount. It works with red dots and low magnification scopes with long eye relief (like handgun scopes), and once you get used to it, it makes aiming a lot faster (if slightly less accurate) by keeping your focus in the distance.

It's slightly odd seeing real OEtechs mounted that way, since one of the advantages of the system (which is the same technology as fighter aircraft HUDs) is the aiming reticule "follows" your focus (i.e. it'll almost always appear on the same plane you're focusing on)

[Crunchmeister]

Originally Posted by Ming_the_Merciless

EDIT: Just realized most CANADIANS probably have never shot a real gun.

Fixed. Most Canadians will have never shot a gun. Of those who have, a high percentile will be only hunting rifles and / or shotguns.

Airsofters are probably far more likely to have at least some hands-on exeprience and knowledge about restricted / military weapons than the average Canadian.

[Danke]

Originally Posted by Endymion

"Grows" in what way? With the real EOTech holosights, the reticule is calibrated to appear focused at a set distance. i.e. regardless how near or far the physical sight is from your eye, the reticule appears to remain the same size on target. Naturally if you're focused on the physical sight itself, then the reticule appears to "grow" in the window.

The reticle does not grow, but appears to.

The target is far away from your eye and appears to stay the same size if you step back five feet.

The reticle stays the same size relative to the target if you step back.

The body of the sight gets smaller as you step back so the reticle "grows" and fills up the window.

[Lakonian]

Originally Posted by Crunchmeister

Fixed. Most Canadians will have never shot a gun. Of those who have, a high percentile will be only hunting rifles and / or shotguns.

Airsofters are probably far more likely to have at least some hands-on exeprience and knowledge about restricted / military weapons than the average Canadian.

LOL......The "average" Canadian believes that bullets are equipped with a baby-seeking homing device...

[Ming_the_Merciless]

Originally Posted by Blackthorne

Barrel radiates heat.

Heat soaks into front end (especially on a nice Swiss cheese aluminum free float)

From the front end the eat migrates into the EOTech. I don't think he mean gas actually comes out of the rifle and directly hits the optic.

Mounted on the upper its protected from the majority of that heat.

No argument here about radiating barrel heat, made me remember a dumb ass move I made, running shorts in the summer while conducting a failure drill, went to the secondary, and ouch was that muzzle hot up against my leg. Hard lesson learned there, don't wear shorts...while conducting a transition drill.

Back on topic I just assume Ace of Spades, is talking about a AR gas piston system (re-read his post about AR gas system), if so, I agree that would present an issue. But was just highly doubtful with a direct impingment would get so hot as to result in failed optics. even with a rapid fire drill with an AR, I never found the hand guard, both the OEM CAR hand guards or Troy Ind. MRF, so hot as to make it unbearable touch, whereas with an AK, whew neoprene gloves are a must, especially if you left the gun out in the sun. I just don't see the temperature getting so high to the point it causes optics failure as a reason not to mount an EOTech or other optic forward on a direct impingement system, but on again on a gas piston, yes I can see that presenting issues.

All those pics seem to want to use the optics in a co-witness setup.

But the reason optics are mounted forward is usually what's called a Scout Mount. It works with red dots and low magnification scopes with long eye relief (like handgun scopes), and once you get used to it, it makes aiming a lot faster (if slightly less accurate) by keeping your focus in the distance.

It's slightly odd seeing real OEtechs mounted that way, since one of the advantages of the system (which is the same technology as fighter aircraft HUDs) is the aiming reticule "follows" your focus (i.e. it'll almost always appear on the same plane you're focusing on)

Its not odd if you accept that EOTechs have unlimited eye-relief so you don't have to get right on top of it like some high power or some variable resolution scopes. Whereas co-witnessing is great way ensure you eliminate any parrallax issues by putting the dot on the front post, though technically EOTechs and Aimpoints don't have parrallax. Personally, I am still unsure if I like the 1/3 co-witness with the LaRue riser, or prefer absolute co-witness, but after more testing I'll see if its a go or no go.

In retrospect, it makes it seem like I've been defending or advocating mounting optics forward. I myself prefer the optics on the upper receiver and not the hand guards. All I was doubting was the explanation of heat from an DI AR for the reason not to mount an optic foward.

I am not sure how much a factor this is, but some people were mentioning the balance would be off, with the mass of the optic forward. I wonder if this would also make it more difficult to drive the gun from target to target, without over shooting, leading with the eyes, drive the gun so it catches up, etc.

Other than that, I also wanted to test this setup of mounting an optic forward, in conjunction with a high-powered or variable scope:

I don't see this causing issues either:

Fixed. Most Canadians will have never shot a gun. Of those who have, a high percentile will be only hunting rifles and / or shotguns.

Airsofters are probably far more likely to have at least some hands-on exeprience and knowledge about restricted / military weapons than the average Canadian.

I digress...nothing against airsofters, hey I airsoft on occassion, something more dynamic than dry-fire practice, nice way to do force-on-force, but for an average airsofter how much of that knowledge, about military weapons, is not internet based/video game based v. real-world/practical experience. Hang or lurk around multiple real-steel gun forums and theres an almost universal disdain for airsofters, we are frequently miss-generalized/characterized as being "mall-ninjas", they tend to dump us into the same category as people whom claim to be from the 82 Airborne, Delta, SEAL, uber-death-touch group, but are actually from the "67th Chairborne Division".


(Infamous patch from AFCOM.)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ming_the_Merciless

I digress...nothing against airsofters, hey I airsoft on occassion, something more dynamic than dry-fire practice, nice way to do force-on-force, but for an average airsofter how much of that knowledge, about military weapons, is not internet based/video game based v. real-world/practical experience. Hang or lurk around multiple real-steel gun forums and theres an almost universal disdain for airsofters, we are frequently miss-generalized/characterized as being "mall-ninjas", they tend to dump us into the same category as people whom claim to be from the 82 Airborne, Delta, SEAL, uber-death-touch group, but are actually from the "67th Chairborne Division".

You're also from the US, where everyone and their grandmother owns firearms and the bulk of your airsofters are 13 years old and posting retarded videos of themselves on YouTube.

The situation elsewhere in the world is often quite different.

[Ming_the_Merciless]

Originally Posted by Drake

You're also from the US, where everyone and their grandmother owns firearms and the bulk of your airsofters are 13 years old and posting retarded videos of themselves on YouTube.

The situation elsewhere in the world is often quite different.

Oh I wish...if everyone and their grandmother owned a firearm maybe there wouldn't be such a gun panic state-side.

The situation here is getting absolutely ridicilous post Nov. 4th!

1.) Ammo
Ammo prices were already on the rise, first due to increasing cost of materials plus the WoT, even though material prices have dropped somewhat given the current status of the economy, the prices are still going through the roof, due in part by a fear of ammo taxation, or fear of a requirement to imprint serial numbers on shell-casings. I remember when it first started with .308, all the surplus stuff disappeared, then 5.56 because of the GWoT, and now some places its impossible to find 9mm locally. Its so difficult that even the local Walmarts, where I live, don't have a single box of 22 LR left.

2.) Guns
Certain guns are difficult to purchase now, back-ordered for up to half a year or even more. These include guns that might be listed on a new AWB (Assualt Weapons Ban), AR15s, AKs, and such. The fear also goes to a chance of a semi-automatic weapons ban. I myself was eyeing to get an M1A, probably Springfield Armory, or to jump on the bandwangon & get a gas-piston AR.

3.) Gun Parts
Because of the difficultly in getting guns, some have went the route of building their own AK or AR15. Making it damn near impossible to find a LPK (Lower Parts Kit), a good mil-spec BCG, Bolt, barrels, upper receiver groups/assemblies, and more.

4.) Magazines
Along with the fear of an AWB, there is a chance there will also be a high-capacity magazine ban. So gun owners are also stock-piling on magazines that can hold above 10 rounds. For example I had a order for Magpul PMags for a couple of months now. Also items that just get in stock are ussualy sold in a matter of hours.

I tell you of all the industries still doing great, if not better, is the gun-industry, I can't imagine what their profit margins are. Let's not forget the people/companies that are scum for price gouging the customers. I've seen as high as $40 for PMags, that normally run $14.95 for non-window. I know I can't blame the "O-siah", idiots blame Obama, honestly its fellow shooters that are making this panic buying worst, but eh...had to vent.

Back on topic, I couldn't find my manual for the EOTech, but someone mentioned that L3 said not to specifically mount on the rail fore-end. I didn't recall off the top of my head if it did, so found a PDF version, re-read it, and don't don't see a manufacturer warning about mounting it on a foreend. I checked the my box the EOTech came in, which I saved just in case I were to sell it, and saw a orange card that just mentioned don't use Loctite on the threads with the Knurled Weaver Bolt. Um, opps...I blue Loctited it already - I always blue Loctite fasteners for scope rings/optics (screws always seem to shoot loose), don't understand how that could damage something, over-torque when removing perhaps - but how often would you move your optic off its rings/mount after you went through the ordeal zeroing it?

Anyhow for those interested here is the manual, in case your also lost yours:
http://eotech-inc.com/documents/511-552_User_Manual.pdf

[Crunchmeister]

Ming, no offense intended, but I don't think you have a clear idea of what kind of restrictions firearms are under in Canada if you're comparing it to how "difficult" it is to get guns in the US. The gun crackdown here is more severe than you can possibly imagine. The amount of time and effort it takes to acquire a Posession and Acquisition License (PAL) to allow the purchase of a basic hunting rifle or shotgun is fucking ridiculous. If you want a Restricted PAL to get handguns and select semi-only "military style" weapons, the process is even more complicated and the restrictions on the licence are retarded. You can't even leave your house with your restricted gun without a transport permit, etc. It's insane. It's far beyond what any laws are in the US. And gun dealers are few and far between. You can probably find more gun dealers in any of the smallest American states than all the gun dealers in Canada combined.

Originally Posted by Ming_the_Merciless

I digress...nothing against airsofters, hey I airsoft on occassion, something more dynamic than dry-fire practice, nice way to do force-on-force, but for an average airsofter how much of that knowledge, about military weapons, is not internet based/video game based v. real-world/practical experience. Hang or lurk around multiple real-steel gun forums and theres an almost universal disdain for airsofters, we are frequently miss-generalized/characterized as being "mall-ninjas", they tend to dump us into the same category as people whom claim to be from the 82 Airborne, Delta, SEAL, uber-death-touch group, but are actually from the "67th Chairborne Division".

While I agree that much of the info that many airsofters have on guns are from media of some sort or another, you'll find that many of the adult airsofters on this forum are also real firearm owners, many with RPALs. In many cases, collectors who would LIKE to get the real guns are unable to get a PAL or RPAL for whatever reason, and the closest they'll get to adding the gun of their dreams to their collection is airsoft. Again, it goes back to our ridiculously strict laws. And in some cases, RPAL holders are unable to get the guns they want because they are prohibited in Canada (like MP5, AK, etc), so again, airsoft will fill the void in their collection. It sucks, really.

[Capt.Flan]

Originally Posted by KND

The is reason that my Eotech on the handguard but I might be wrong, don't quote me on that.

You might want to your optic is far from your eyes sight for practical use. The point is if you put optic close to you eye then you can't reach any target else that not on you optic and you will only concentrate only one target in optic but if other target coming from another position so what you will do, your point is to get the first target and react to the second target or the third target, in addition to get all three of them together. That's mean, your optic can't be close to your eye that you can't have eye release on other target. That's the point.

Originally Posted by Ming_the_Merciless

Why this particular PSD (Private Security Detail) guy runs his EOTech far forward I can't know. But I do know that depending on the shooter, as some people before eluded to, you can get a slightly 'faster' sight picture/acquistion, and shoot in more awkward/difficult positions. From the drills I've conducted on the ground, roll-over-prone, reverse-roll-over prone, supine shooting, or whatever else it helps tremendously getting the optic forward.

However there is a down side to this. If you run your optic on a non-FF (Free-Float) rail, then any pressure on the hand guard/rail forward for the receiver can send rounds that are off by several inches in any direction. This is probably a moot point for this PSD guy, that operates or expects to engage threats up-close. If you don't believe me, I suggest any real-steel shooter go out to the range place a non-FF rail or the barrel on a barrier/object and see the shift in grouping.

If you mount it for airsoft use, this is definitely a non-issue, and whatever floats your boat.

While speaking about optics position, on a side note, we want the optic as low to the bore as possible, thus your hold-overs/off are not as dramatic. However the trade off is speed/comfort, low to the bore makes it difficult to acquire the dot with gear, helmet, and the like.

All the above is correct.

The 2 main reasons are

1-Better field of view. Better to seek threats close-mid range while aiming.

2-If broken can be quickly release to use the iron sight. No flip up shit that do not keep zero well.

And you think those guys really care about braking by heat or whatever any optics they mount?

No. Not really. If it can be usefull for "the" situation they will face, they will use it the way they see fit.