What is your true definition of "Milsim"

[grantmac]

Hours of boredom, moments of confusion, seconds of excitement.

That is milsim for me.

-Grant

[naminator]

Originally Posted by SuperHog

Real cap means the capacity of real steel. 30 rounds is referred to M4 only which is the most popular airsoft assault rifle. If a airsoft gun has a real steel counterpart that has a magazine capacity of 100 rounds then the airsoft version should be limited to that same capacity.

So to answer your post, a airsoft M4 with a 450 round magazine is not realistic. In real steel, I doubt you can stuff 450 rounds into a AR15 magazine.

I am sorry. The MP5 use either a 15 or 30 round magazine. So does the AK47, G36 and really any gun using a Stanag magazine.

And M4 style guns can use a 100 round Beta mag. So can MP5's, G36 variants and AK47 variants (only 75 actually).

What I am talking about is the ballistic difference between 6mm plastic pellets and a 9mm or 5.56 or 7.62 or whatever. You hit a twig or catch a small just of wind and that round is now a huge distance off target. Not to mention real cap mags loose out on the last 3 rounds unless you fire the gun upside down.


I don't think anywhere in my post I talked about 450 round highcap stanag mags. I think that much is incredibly excessive. However I believe 100-150 round mid caps are agreat balance. You can fire in bursts of 5-10 round without having a plastic laser. Limiting SAW players to 300/400 round of ammo to uphold realism is pointless. If you want realism limit them to ONE full box mag. That way they still have the ability to keep heads down without forcing those players to carry excessively heavy weapons.

There is something wrong with a "military simulation" when a person with a M4/AK47/G36/MP5 can stand next to a person lugging a M60 and both can carry the same amount of ammunition. In real life the person hauling that SAW would be a fomidable force but has a significant weight disadvantage. The person with the M4 has an advantage in the sense that they can carry the same amount of rounds as a SAW gunner with significantly less weight.

Unless you start putting weights in you magazines or vest to simulate the weight of real ammunition, you wont have a true milsim experience.

[ThunderCactus]

^except how often are you going to be engaging targets at 200ft or less in open ground with a real firearm?
Comparing a firearm to an airsoft gun at the same range is like saying a lamborghini aventador is better than a pedal car at going around a nascar track.

Engaging a target at 250ft with an airsoft gun is like your maximum range. So compare that to shooting a target with an M4 at 600m. Suddenly all that foliage turns into a real big issue when you're shooting through half a forest to hit your target. Branches and sticks will still cause a real bullet to veer off course at long ranges.

Don't just compare directly because it's completely unfair and makes no sense. You have to scale the ranges to relate the physics of both guns.

[naminator]

I am not saying it is a good comparison. I was comparing relatively short ranges (optimal engagement range for either). But er directly compare magazines sizes as if airsoft should be played with only 30 in a mag.

I am talking about the massive disadvantage saw played have when conforming to real caps versus a normal rifleman. Weight wize the rifleman carries more magazine weight, which doesnt even get considered in most milsims (that i have seen). Most airsofters also play in wooded or atleast semi urban enviroments. Alot of real combat takes place in closer quarters. However i dont know much about active combat so cannot comment. I can comment on the weight of ammunition and the pita it is to lug that weight around.

[ThunderCactus]

In CQB, the ranges are more or less airsoft ranges, so apart from being able to dodge BBs and not being able to shoot through most walls and doors, it works out great in CQB.
Ammo weight isn't a big deal, but it would definitely prevent people from carrying 24 mags lol

In the field it's more annoying to have realcaps, but it's not as bad as you might think. Otherwise nobody would have a GBBR lol
If you ran everyone on realcaps, most people would be really outclassed by high performance guns like tuned AEG's, GBBRs and PTWs. So although it's more realistic, what's not realistic is the fact a stock AEG can't hit the broad side of a barn on a good day.

Given that everyone has a high performance gun, the field can be leveled with realcaps with no complaints.

That being said, if you're looking for fairness, the better your gun is, the less ammo you should be allowed to carry.
I used to carry 18 lowcaps with my M4 aeg, 1224 rounds.
With the ptw I usually only carry 9 mags loaded to 60 each, that's 540 rounds. And I gotta say I refill them a lot less frequently, too.

So to summarize, the shittier your gun is, the more ammo you need to compensate for the lack of accuracy.
The more accurate your gun is, the easier it is to deal with running realcaps.

[naminator]

This is exactly it. This just tells me true milsim has an insane entry barrier for most people, especially newer players. I have never played in a full on milsim, just skirmishes. Honestly getting a bunch of gear together, camping in a field, making a cup of coffee knowing that at any moment all hell could break loose would be fantastic. But going up against guys with ptws or high end gbbrs would suck in comparison.

Limiting ammunition would probably solve this issue nicely. But allowing SAW gunners to carry one full magazine of rounds (1500-2000) allows them to spray a bit more. At the.end of the day it all comes down to the rules put in place and how they are enforced. Thats the hard lart about this.

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

In CQB, the ranges are more or less airsoft ranges, so apart from being able to dodge BBs and not being able to shoot through most walls and doors, it works out great in CQB.
Ammo weight isn't a big deal, but it would definitely prevent people from carrying 24 mags lol

In the field it's more annoying to have realcaps, but it's not as bad as you might think. Otherwise nobody would have a GBBR lol
If you ran everyone on realcaps, most people would be really outclassed by high performance guns like tuned AEG's, GBBRs and PTWs. So although it's more realistic, what's not realistic is the fact a stock AEG can't hit the broad side of a barn on a good day.

Given that everyone has a high performance gun, the field can be leveled with realcaps with no complaints.

That being said, if you're looking for fairness, the better your gun is, the less ammo you should be allowed to carry.
I used to carry 18 lowcaps with my M4 aeg, 1224 rounds.
With the ptw I usually only carry 9 mags loaded to 60 each, that's 540 rounds. And I gotta say I refill them a lot less frequently, too.

So to summarize, the shittier your gun is, the more ammo you need to compensate for the lack of accuracy.
The more accurate your gun is, the easier it is to deal with running realcaps.

[ThunderCactus]

Thus the 3 circle graph, fun vs realism vs objective based game

However, to blow your mind, true milsim is not "fair" either.
When was the last time the Canadian military went toe to toe with an opponent of equal skill and equipment?
Having 5 guys with ptw's wreck 20 guys with crappy stock AKs is still realistic. Wherein the crappy stock AK's would represent crap aim.
If you're fighting a battle on equal terms, your tactics are shit.

So then you move further out of the realism circle and into the fun circle, and balance out the teams based on player skill.
fairness is fun, it's certainly not realistic.

[naminator]

No Milsim is fair. Ever. Mainly because you don't die. Unfortunately airsoft is a far cry from true 'milsim'. The closest to milsim I can imagine is simmunition and real military tactics.

Airsoft in itself is not realistic enough to approach true military tactics because of the ballistic limitations of the 6mm bb. We can get close, but no matter what our tactics will be different because our guns are different.

So to summarize Milsim for me is something airsoft can come relatively close too, but never touch. But I honestly believe that Milsim should incorporate fun stuff to make the whole experience more enjoyable. You can do night time patrols, camping in the mud and crawling through and acre of underbrush, but I think that needs to be carefully and realistically balanced with fun.

[Ricochet]

You guys do realize that simulation is just simulation, right? Realism is a good aspect, but people don't have to actually die and the guns don't have to be real for it to be simulation. The purpose of simulation is just that, to simulate. For instance you could be carrying weights to simulate the weight of real gear, you don't actually have to wear the actual gear. To be truly a military simulation all depends on the purpose of the exercise's primary dynamic. A game doesn't have to be twenty-four hours, have one-hundred or more combatants or even take place on an old army base to count. It's all about the experience and the goal. Gear, time, role-playing, etc, can all play a part, but they must exist in an appropriate balance with the main idea in order to actually be a simulation. All gear must be mission appropriate or recreate that of the appropriately involved parties, such as Delta. Time has to be appropriate for the simulation, and any role-playing must strictly be fantasy free. You are a soldier on a specific mission, for the purposes of concluding the exercise. You aren't imagining your someone specific or you're either in fantasy land or you're doing a reinactment of something that actually happened.

Here's an example; five members from a terrorist cell have taken reporters hostage in a fortified building, and have given twelve hours for thei colleagues to be released or they will begin to execute hostages. Unable to agree to their terms the Canadian military command decides upon force intervention. A small group of Arrowheads will be flown in under cover of night, gain access to the building without detection, neutralize the threat and if possible, save the hostages and possibly take the enemy leader alive. Once boots are on the ground they'll have four hours to complete their objectives.

So let's say that the above is the basis of the simulation; you'd need appropriate Number of members for each side, hostages could be dummies because they don't have to shoot, obviously real people make it better, but are hardly necessary. Next the gear on each side should be mission appropriate. It doesn't have to be exact but it must serve the purpose of the mission. Obviously wearing exactly what SSF would bring on such a mission would be best, but similarly functioning gear would suffice, as long as it does the same job just as well. A time limit would be appropriate here, as well as a plan and tactics necessary for this type of operation. There's be no reinforcements, so if you are shot, then you are out. Etc, etc.

As long as all dynamics are realistic and appropriate for the simulation, then so be it. It must simulate properly, not necessarily be exactly real to count. An airsoft gun can simulate a real gun, hell, a banana could do it though it wouldn't do as good of a job. Perhaps that's too far off base to seriously be considered a simulation, but you get the idea. In most airsoft games, even the bigger more realistic and complex ones, there are great elements of simulation present, but they are too open-ended to be true simulation. They are more like war games, the team with the best organization, training, gear and tactics will likely dominate. To be fair, better military stylization such as weapons, gear, and training are the best tools for the job and will help with success. I have been to games that had enough simulation aspects to fairly be called simulation, and I have been to others that are way off base. If you are simulating then it's a simulation, if you aren't, then you're not. Military is an open ended word in itself, depending on country and timeline, the word military can mean several different things.

How much simulation does there have to be at an event for it to count, well, good question? In every simulation there will be unrealistic dynamics, that's the purpose of simulation, you can only pretend to recreate something. I don't know exactly how precise or what percentage needs to be there in order to count, but I'd say it would have to be the vast majority. Simulation by its nature isn't designed to be fun, not that some people don't find it fun, but its purpose is altogether different. Crawling through mud and taking very few shots is a player's choice, and hell, it may be simulation appropriate, but there have been very long battles where thousands of rounds have been expended.

So the real question is; what are you trying to simulate? Saying military means nothing, but saying a modern Taliban attack is something. Does you event bring the realism and feel close to that actual event? Does the area and gear bring the right look? If you answered no to any of the previous questions, then no, it is not a simulation.

Some mention that it is strictly frame of mind, and that's important, but not the only thing needed by far. If you are doing a proper simulation then the appropriate mind set will help you to bring it to life, I'm not talking acting or pretending, just taking it seriously for what it is. If on the other hand you are at a large airsoft game based around a complex capture the flag scenarios, and you believe you are really in the military, then you are a nut and are probably single. In fact, I might be concerned that you own an airsoft gun.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

That was an excellent post, thank you

[SuperHog]

Originally Posted by naminator

I am sorry. The MP5 use either a 15 or 30 round magazine. So does the AK47, G36 and really any gun using a Stanag magazine.

And M4 style guns can use a 100 round Beta mag. So can MP5's, G36 variants and AK47 variants (only 75 actually).

What I am talking about is the ballistic difference between 6mm plastic pellets and a 9mm or 5.56 or 7.62 or whatever. You hit a twig or catch a small just of wind and that round is now a huge distance off target. Not to mention real cap mags loose out on the last 3 rounds unless you fire the gun upside down.


I don't think anywhere in my post I talked about 450 round highcap stanag mags. I think that much is incredibly excessive. However I believe 100-150 round mid caps are agreat balance. You can fire in bursts of 5-10 round without having a plastic laser. Limiting SAW players to 300/400 round of ammo to uphold realism is pointless. If you want realism limit them to ONE full box mag. That way they still have the ability to keep heads down without forcing those players to carry excessively heavy weapons.

There is something wrong with a "military simulation" when a person with a M4/AK47/G36/MP5 can stand next to a person lugging a M60 and both can carry the same amount of ammunition. In real life the person hauling that SAW would be a fomidable force but has a significant weight disadvantage. The person with the M4 has an advantage in the sense that they can carry the same amount of rounds as a SAW gunner with significantly less weight.

Unless you start putting weights in you magazines or vest to simulate the weight of real ammunition, you wont have a true milsim experience.

I wish my M4 could shoot through twigs and walls, but then it wouldn't be a replica and no one would play with me.

Unfortunately regardless what you use in airsoft, either a 9mm beretta, 45 1911, Barrett .50 cal, they are all a spherical 6mm bb.

Also GBBR can shoot all 30 rounds, as well there are AEG mags that have extended followers you can shoot the magazine until it is empty.

[SuperHog]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

No, but they do have 100 round midcaps now

Oh....my bad.

I would hate to lug those in my vest if GBBR M4 had mid caps.

[Zack The Ripper]

Originally Posted by SuperHog

as well there are AEG mags that have extended followers you can shoot the magazine until it is empty.

Other than the PTS ERG RM4 mags which only work in the KWA ERG RM4; what AEG magazines do you speak of? Serious question. I use TMAGs right meow but would like something a little more realistic

[Spike]

G&G makes them "totally not Pmags"


Or you can get extended followers somewhere, I remember seeing them, just 3D printed, but my search-fu is weak today...

[Gato]

Originally Posted by Zack The Ripper

Other than the PTS ERG RM4 mags which only work in the KWA ERG RM4; what AEG magazines do you speak of? Serious question. I use TMAGs right meow but would like something a little more realistic

I've been running stock metal mags, either ARES or MAG, unsure, they were a gift, but they feed every last round through every gun I've put them in