What is your true definition of "Milsim"

[Danke]

Those complaints will never change. I've seen players in Hong Kong complaining about the price on the street when it's a tenth of what we pay here.

[J-Man19]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

Every host has to be responsible for their decisions as well. If you hosted a game that was strictly AOR1 versus AOR2, you'd likely have a sparse showing. Slightly more common nowadays is approved camo lists. Things like Multicam, AOR2, marpat desert, A-Tacs AU, multiterrain, etc, versus M81 woodland, marpat, DPM, etc. But then you have guys wearing UCP, or black complaining.

This annoys me to no end, along with people posting weeks before a milsim or themed game saying they don't have a required camo so they'll just show up wearing UCP because that's all they have.

One specific game this year was a Wolverines themed game (civilian militia vs soviet military) Rules were dress the part, no geared out civies in plate carriers, helmets or camo, and soviets were to wear green camo. Fairly simple instructions you'd think. Nope. One guy posted up saying all he had was UCP so that was good enough, while others were going to run helmets and plate carriers on the civilian team. (helmets so they could get sweet footage of them walking through thick scrub brush, and plate carriers because they felt they could do what they want)

I'm all for invite only and minimum kit list games for reasons like this. There are plenty of bb fest games for the COD playing mag ticklers, more serious players shouldn't have to dumb down their games to always cater to those kind of players.

[Abacus]

A slide we used to get around the matchy patterns was we made it that any squad or team had to have matching uniform, thereby making the uniform choices as part of the IFF process. Naturally it wasn't perfect as there of course wound up being more than one squad in Multicam (the pattern of choice here), but it did do a good job of showing to the player WHY a uniform standard was tactically useful.

[Danke]

So it sounds like milsim lives half in the heart of the players and half in the brain of the organizer.

The way to recognize the signs of it is to detect some level of commitment for player preparation prior to the day beyond showing up with exact change.

[Aswayze]

Ricochet said:
"As I understand it in many States, there are more people available for the oddball or specialty stuff due to population. Also, not three, four, ten hour drives to find a game that suits you."

And Brian said: "When you choose to specialize then you have to realize that you cut out the majority of players, and you have to adjust your expectations with respect to attendance. "

I understand exactly where Rickchet is coming from on that. It sounds like you actually had a pretty good thing going in your area for the volume of folks involved all in all. It's not quite as easy here in the states as it may look. For me, I live in Kansas City. There is effectively no milsim play here at all so if I want a Milsim game I need to drive at best 12 hours to Colorado, 15 or so to get up to Wyoming or at worst 18-24 hours to get up to Recondo. I can get funsoft most any weekend, decent CQB at a number of places withing 2-4 hours but not really any serious (non-trigger time oriented) Milsim gaming. If I want to do more mainstream "Milsim" gaming, then I get a game or two a year within about 4 hours of here.

In short, the more focused you end up getting, the more limiting you are for the events you are looking at. I think we all know that...

So how on Earth is East Wind successful down here? If I am in somewhat of an airsoft black hole, how do I get a successful Milsim event together? Well, that's just the thing, if you do not pander to the middle at all and you put together something that is as pure as you can stand then you actually have something that stands out from the crowd. When you have that, people will take the time to travel. Nearly a quarter of the NATO contingent last year were international travelers (Canadians and Brits) and many of our other attendees were traveling from the far extremes of the US like Southern California or the Eastern seaboard. If I was much more lenient on requirements, much more lax on what we were going to do, I might gain some local guys but then what I was going would not be that different than what the guys who are traveling can find locally so I would be doing so at the expense of guys who are willing to travel and I would probably have the same or slightly LOWER numbers. I really do think that producing very focused events is where it is at even when you are in a much less urbanized area.

Danke said:" Going all queer eye and saying fat people or boonie hats are not allowed is probably a bit miss-guided.


Same for re-supply or other administrative details. Guys in the military go back to the vehicle for more ammo all the time."

Nobody said fat people aren't allowed. Hell I am 43 years old now and it's been nearly 20 years since I ran my last marathon. I assure you I am plenty fat. Many of us are that way. Boonie caps are obviously an event specific thing. For US troops they were not an "issue" item so when units got them they were either an individual purchase or a unit purchase. As such, I do not REQUIRE booney caps but certainly don't mind if guys wear period appropriate ones.


Childers in his period appropriate booney wearing the uniform he wore during the East Wind time frame.

Limited ammo and resupply really is the answer. When done correctly, the point is not so much to limit the amount of shooting a unit does but to build in the need for the battle to actually be managed. When you have the event set up such that a defeated enemy cannot just run back, tag a tree turn around and hit you 20 seconds later with another Yosemite Sam charge then it's a little easier to manage things a bit. For us, that usually means consolidating after the contact, trading ammo back and forth if needed, a quick LACE report called in on the section/squads radio, a medevac call if required, then back at the HQ the leadership determines if a resupply run is needed or is practical. That's a snap for us, since we have period vehicles and a big enough AO to make use of them, other planners have differing challenges administratively and/or may have different scenarios in mind than well supplied first world armies in Europe.

I think that in most cases, when event hosts are trying to keep players away from their cars it usually has a LOT more to do with keeping the game flowing and keeping everyone immersed in what's going on rather than having 50% of the event vanish to go to McDonalds at lunch time or sitting around in lawn chairs having the Henny Penny social hour while others are having to do double duty to keep the event running.

Danke also said: "When the game admin decides to intervene and tweak the rules on the fly because the game has tilted the wrong way they better have a plan and a reasonable way to do so. Otherwise it's just bullshit."

I could not agree more. In my opinion the heart of this is the feeling that it is bad for one side to absolutely pound the piss out of the other. I personally prefer to pretty much let things come as they may. If I am getting face stomped than that means that I am being challenged (which is good) and in my opinion, I would much prefer to level the playing field myself than have it leveled for me by some admin act of god. The best way to level the playing field is to get the side that is losing to step up to the challenge rather than put annoying obstacles in the way of the side that is doing well.

Ricochet said: "A lot of work goes into these events, and changing everything on the fly to compensate is a pain. Many hardcore game organizers have resorted to either inviting teams/players that they know will tough it out, and help the game keep rolling, and others say straight out not to bother attending unless your prepared for a long game. This also gets people upset, but not understandably. Why should they want you there if your just coming to do things your way, and not to be a part of the big picture? Many game organizers are players. It's not about the money, they want to hold a specific type of event, and throw their blood, sweat, and tears, into it, but can only pull it of if everyone chips in and comes prepared. But then they get called elitist."

Well said. I will add one thought about longer "endurance" games that I feel is a shortcoming I see many game hosts falling into. As usual, there is a tendency to feel that players need plenty of trigger time to validate their existence so the pace of operations remains pretty high. As such, before too long guys start to wear out, tempers flare, guys head to the cars, unit cohesion dissolves. Next thing you know the 5% of players who paced themselves are out walking all over the AO unopposed. As a host, you need STRONG leadership that has the sense to cycle units in and out for rest and spends a great deal of time working on the logistical aspects of keeping guys in the field. If you just expect guys to show up able to run 24+ hours with no plan or upper end support you are just asking for it.

Riccochet said: "What really frustrates me is how gear and guns keep getting exponentially cheaper, and yet people still bitch about the price. I guess that'll never change. Sigh*"

I don't think it's a price issue for most of the guys who are bitching, it's mostly because it will require effort. Hell, you should see the things people whine about on the East Wind gear lists. "What, you're pissed about the USGI angle head flashlight requirement? I have some of those for sale in the classified section for $3 each!" One of the things I have noticed in many years of doing East Wind is that the guys who are pissing and bitching about gear requirements are not looking for a solution, they are looking for a reason to justify not coming. Jump through hoops and fix one problem then they will just invent another one. Easiest answer on any of this is to be polite, offer solutions and if they are not that interested, just don't spend that much time worrying about it.

J-man19 said: "This annoys me to no end, along with people posting weeks before a milsim or themed game saying they don't have a required camo so they'll just show up wearing UCP because that's all they have."

See this has an easy solution. I do not care how far you come, how exciting you are, how big your belt buckle is, you show up to East Wind in the wrong stuff you are not getting in. I do not kid about this in the least and have sent people packing (generally they just drive off to a surplus store and buy the required gear locally). If you set the standard, then have the balls to enforce the standard you'll put an end to that really damn fast. Again, those guys will bitch up a storm and fill the internet full of hate towards your event for giving them the boot and again, that is the best advertising you could possibly ask for since you'll not have to explain again that you are not kidding on gear requirements.

Danke said: "The way to recognize the signs of it is to detect some level of commitment for player preparation prior to the day beyond showing up with exact change."

Bingo. That is what we are all looking for. When the players pull their part of the load then your successes will number like grains of sand. Good milsim requires good players.

[Kimbo]

It's some comfort I suppose to see that game organizers all over have the same issues.

When you start airsoft you generally have no expectation from a game so your expectations are easily met. When you've been playing for a while and the excitement of shooting lots wears off, finding more serious milsim games to keep you interested becomes more difficult. Or rather, finding players who want to play more serious milsim games (before they quit out of boredom) becomes more difficult.

Even the milsim games that we run, we end up watering them down a bit so that they are more accessible to our player base. We'd love to make them more strict, but then we'd be out there with 20 guys. Probably not such a bad thing. ;P

It seems to be a bit like the airsoft holy grail...a quest to find a real milsim game. I suppose we'll have to make the trek to East Wind *cough* Mecca *cough*

Great discussion, BTW

[J-Man19]

Originally Posted by Kimbo

It's some comfort I suppose to see that game organizers all over have the same issues.

When you start airsoft you generally have no expectation from a game so your expectations are easily met. When you've been playing for a while and the excitement of shooting lots wears off, finding more serious milsim games to keep you interested becomes more difficult. Or rather, finding players who want to play more serious milsim games (before they quit out of boredom) becomes more difficult.

It seems to be a bit like the airsoft holy grail...a quest to find a real milsim game. I suppose we'll have to make the trek to East Wind *cough* Mecca *cough*

Great discussion, BTW

I'd build a necessary kit for a drunken road trip to east wind.
I might even be able to be convinced to do a Russian load out so Gish can finally play in his gear at a big game.

[Ricochet]

Kimbo and his camp put on some good events actually. Usually a solid a turnout matched with good game dynamics. I think something many games suffer from is recycled play areas, though it can be challenging to find new and exciting venues.

A special shout out goes to the guys who were mix and match gear to events, even something as simple as green versus tan. A lot of people say that perhÃ*ps it was all they can afford, or it was all their friends could lend them. To be honest, I sympathize with this, but when I come into a room and see a multicam arm, and then get shot by the guy because I hesitated, and now I see he's wearing OD pants with a UCP rig, I feel like going all Hulk smash. I actually witnessed this happen to an admin at Mason Relic, as the guy was wearing mix and match, he was pretty upset. Also, if the game is green versus tan, and all your buddies are wearing A-Tacs FG, but all you had is aridpat; guess what? You're on the other team numbnuts. You always see those guys who try to silently shuffle over by their friends, but are wearing opposing colors.



Back on the milsim note. There are always differing trains if thought, that live within the same world; things such as ammo/magazine limits, camo restrictions, mandatory safety gear, etc. Any player worth his salt will willingly adapt to attend an event they are interested in. For example, we run Systemas for the most part, and standard Systema magazines, which are the best in my opinion, hold about 120 rounds. We only load out magazines halfway as a rule of thumb, so approximately 60-70 rounds. These magazines, no matter how you slice it are considered mid-caps. When an event only allows blank number of mid-caps, that's all we carry, and we still only half load them. We don't carry extra because we use them as low-caps, and we do not ask for a reprieve. Rules are rules, get over it. One game I attended was a single high-cap allowance only. One gentleman was carrying two, and claiming he only used the second one to load his primary magazine, basically a BB holder. Even if that is true, and he is being honest, he still broke the rules. Same with comms. If the rules state not to jam or scan enemy frequencies, them just plain old don't do it.

[xpartano]

For our grouping ANURANS, the MILSIM is a military exercise (can be tactical, combat, or basic training) performed with or without the level of demand that occurs in the military, in a longer or shorter, but done by people who do not necessarily have education or military training and using sports as a tool playful electric weapons. This exercise unlike an airsoft game has much more preparation actions for achieving its goals. In participants MILSIM not seek a recreational activity, what motivates them is more personal and group achievement of objectives.

[Aswayze]

That is very well said.

I do not think that it is at all the norm in regular Milsim play styles but one of the aspects of how we run East Wind that really seems to stick well is mission planning and prep. We have the luxury of time that most events do not and in addition to that, we have enough (barely) staff to actually develop an intel picture of what is going on so that players are able to work with real rather than scenario imagined intel when working out mission plans.

This means a good hour or so sitting around the table working out the plan, perhaps another hour getting kitted up just right, perhaps some time running some rehearsals etc before you step off for "action".

On the outside looking in, that seems entirely tedious. When you are in the midst of it though, it is very engrossing and gives you a great deal of personal ownership of the mission and a good dose of confidence when you walk out past the wire.

Think of it this way. Have any of you ever done a mission and when you were done thought "if only we had thought to do X instead!" Or rather have any of you ever NOT thought that? Sitting there, gaming it out before hand, working out the details, the route, actions on the objective, etc makes things just roll once you hit the field.

I am not sure how easy this is to integrate into more mainstream Milsim but it is something that works well at East Wind, it might be worth some thought.


Company OPORD going out at East Wind 5, squad/section leaders get their part then start working out their part of the puzzle.


Individual sections work out their mission plans.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

This is something that I call "mission based" organization. I have been integrating this into milsims I host , both small and large.

The next step is eliminating "respawn" so that for each mission it is a 1 life event.

[Trev140_0]

These are examples:

PATCOM American Milsim Operation Blue Grey DA Mission - Ballahack Airsoft - YouTube


MilSim West Presents: Breakout Birbaria - Featuring: Rushing Russians - YouTube


Op Blacksheep At Skirmish 7/6/2013 Frago Mission 1 - YouTube

[Aswayze]

@Brian, I would think that eliminating respawn would be a hard sell on a shorter term event. We have a 2 hour dead time back at camp which is not a big deal at all on a longer game (in fact most of us are GLAD to have the enforced break) but I'd think that would be tough to do normally.

To me, the biggest issue is not having the same guys returning to the same fight. There is a tendency to use attrition (More specifically to abuse Noobs as cannon fodder rather than work with them) to achieve goals instead of fighting right and if you can manage the structure such that the opposing sides do not have an unlimited supply of bodies to pile up then you basically achieve that goal.

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by Aswayze

@Brian, I would think that eliminating respawn would be a hard sell on a shorter term event. We have a 2 hour dead time back at camp which is not a big deal at all on a longer game (in fact most of us are GLAD to have the enforced break) but I'd think that would be tough to do normally.

To me, the biggest issue is not having the same guys returning to the same fight. There is a tendency to use attrition (More specifically to abuse Noobs as cannon fodder rather than work with them) to achieve goals instead of fighting right and if you can manage the structure such that the opposing sides do not have an unlimited supply of bodies to pile up then you basically achieve that goal.

This I'm mostly in agreement with. Short shot, objective games, you can do the one death scenario, but then smart teams focus on enemy elimination rather than objectives. If the other team is wiped out, they can't win, and you win by default; unless of course you'd make the winning team carry out the objectives for no reason. Also, part of the draw of airsoft is the ability to keep playing. You think no hit calling is bad now, at a longer event with no respawns, it would become a plague. Not that I wouldn't avoid it strictly for this reason. I'd still look for cheaters, and toss them out. A tough sell indeed.

[m102404]

With Milsim games I'd like to see a much longer "you're dead" timing...but we've done some 1-life type scenarios and they're quite fun. Really depends on the guys and how much space you've got to work with.

In 1-life type scenarios with enough space to negotiate a precise mission objective is really fun if guys keep their heads. The scenario may span many hours or may finish up really quickly...it just depends on how it plays out. For the ones I've seen like that...even the "losers" are ok with it because really things could have gone either way.

TBH...in games with medics and quick respawns I'd admit to throwing caution to the wind with my "life" since the game dynamics turn more to who can "resupply" most efficiently to overwhelm the other side. Reminds me more of 1918'ish tactics of throwing guys into a meatgrinder and wearing down the other side until they tire out. Sure there's still consequences to getting shot...but they're either minor or readily managed tactically.

Points taken that you want to keep things fun for guys and burning them out endlessly with hiking back and forth to respawns really sucks the wind out of guys, especially in the latter timings.

It all comes down to the guys though. Some can get their heads around the intent of the rules/game...others can't or willfully disregard things because it's "hard" or "not fun". Aside from the latter guys, from all the games I've seen (of any type) the only issues that arise are ones when the expectations aren't clear and common.

Setting the rules so that you cannot go to respawn (or start your "bleed out" timer with medic rules) until the immediate firefight has completely finished is a good way to accomplish things. It also supports games where you're collecting "kill cards" or whatnot...since the dead guys don't get up and walk off before the fight is done. It might be a long wait if the area is strongly contested...but that's the cause and effect part of things. Having medics kick in afterwards will help with avoiding long hikes and losing people on respawns.