Hello everybody, I am the service guy from Pantac

[ILLusion]

Pantac is better than Phantom.

The materials and build quality have improved since the change.

Originally Posted by dragwindsor

If the Pantac gears are as good as my Phantom CIRAS M in OD, then I'll be looking forward to doing business with them

Do you have 12 shell MOLLE Shotgun pouches in OD? That I can put in place of my Admin pouch?

Thanks alot.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by ShadowNet

Do you sell the new Pantac Multicam CIRAS with all the pouches included too? Where can I get one in Canada?

Don't know if anybody stocks them, but I can order it for you.

Are you looking for the marine version or land version?

[ILLusion]

I've retracted my previous statement on their quality and revised it.

[Pantac Gear]

Originally Posted by dragwindsor

If the Pantac gears are as good as my Phantom CIRAS M in OD, then I'll be looking forward to doing business with them

Do you have 12 shell MOLLE Shotgun pouches in OD? That I can put in place of my Admin pouch?

Thanks alot.

Do you mean this one?

http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...l?prodID=22203

First, I think Pantac products are great. That being said...

Originally Posted by Pantac Gear

Ah, the Phantom Multicam.

It is quite a story.

We started Phatom in 2005, we designed the logo, we marketed them. But in late 2006, the factory who helped us to make those products took the Phantom brand to register by theirselves without noticing us. They started to use our material to built Phantom products and tried to sold them to our distributors. Of course we cut our cooperation immediately, and started our own factory to market Pantac.

This makes me LOL.

Phantom, which ripped off Eagle, got ripped off by the factory ripping off Eagle, and created their own ripoffs to undermine the Phantom ripoffs...so Phantom rebrands their ripoffs as Pantac.

So essentially you ripped off Eagle, and then the factory you assembled to sell Eagle clones cloned your clones. Not to be outdone, Pantac has now expanded to rip off not just the big manufacturers, but the little guys like So-Tech, HSGI, and the niche guys like LBT. Hey, if ripping off one company works, why not steal all their designs? Heck, you don't even hide it...when your products are marketted with the ORIGINAL MANUFACTURER'S PRODUCT NAME under your product code and Pantac label.

Ah, capitalism.

Anyway....the quality is great and the price is right. Even if the product is less than original. As a gear DESIGNER and MANUFACTURER, I'm sure you can understand my frustration.

[Pantac Gear]

Ah, eventually, inevitably, we have to face the accuse from gear designers and manufacturers.

Sure, I am fully understand your frustration. And I am aware of the outrage from those brands we are pirating. I am really sorry about that.

I won't find any excused for our pirating. Actually their won't be any excuses for what we have kept doing.

But the fact is that, there does exist a market place between real thing and crap replica. And we happen to be the most famous replica maker.

We keep trying to solve this annoying issue, for example, we try to make our own design, though it sucks. Maybe, you can help us to solve this by selling us your design, or sell us a lisence to make your product, or we can produce items for you at a very low cost and signing contract for your exclusive products.

After, I know what we are doing is wrong. If it will may you feel better, I will accept any blame. The fault is all ours.

I am sorry, man, I am terribly sorry.

:banghead:

Originally Posted by MadMorbius

First, I think Pantac products are great. That being said...



This makes me LOL.

Phantom, which ripped off Eagle, got ripped off by the factory ripping off Eagle, and created their own ripoffs to undermine the Phantom ripoffs...so Phantom rebrands their ripoffs as Pantac.

So essentially you ripped off Eagle, and then the factory you assembled to sell Eagle clones cloned your clones. Not to be outdone, Pantac has now expanded to rip off not just the big manufacturers, but the little guys like So-Tech, HSGI, and the niche guys like LBT. Hey, if ripping off one company works, why not steal all their designs? Heck, you don't even hide it...when your products are marketted with the ORIGINAL MANUFACTURER'S PRODUCT NAME under your product code and Pantac label.

Ah, capitalism.

Anyway....the quality is great and the price is right. Even if the product is less than original. As a gear DESIGNER and MANUFACTURER, I'm sure you can understand my frustration.

As I said, I like your gear and frankly that's capitalism, isn't it?

You're absolutely right about the price point. If you can do it faster, cheaper, and at similar quality, it's going to sell. It's as much the fault of the big guys for pricing their merchandise the way they do.

[Farmboy]

As I said, I like your gear and frankly that's capitalism, isn't it?

Capitalism is producing a product, better, faster, less expensive or more advanced to beat out the other competitors.

Capitalism is not breaking copyright, patent laws to beat out the competitors.

It's one thing to come close to a design, it's another to do exact copies including logos.

It's as much the fault of the big guys for pricing their merchandise the way they do.

Some have no choice if they want to continue to sell to the US military. They need it produced in the US or no government business.

We keep trying to solve this annoying issue, for example, we try to make our own design, though it sucks. Maybe, you can help us to solve this by selling us your design, or sell us a lisence to make your product, or we can produce items for you at a very low cost and signing contract for your exclusive products.

If you go this route, talk to MadMorbius.

[dragwindsor]

Originally Posted by Pantac Gear

Do you mean this one?

http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...l?prodID=22203

PM'd.

In OD.

[Drake]

Honestly, I have to wonder how much the "big boy" gear manufacturers actually care about airsofters using cloned gear, beyond the knee-jerk "zomfg infringement" reaction. It's not like any of those companies ever produced something with airsofters in mind and the market share they lose to companies like Pantac is a market share they wouldn't have had in the first place.

Those airsofters who do care for the real deal items DO go out and buy bona fide Eagle and whatnot; but for the average player for whom $600+ for a CIRAS is NOT going to happen? Eagle never had that sale and companies like Pantac are offering players an affordable lookalike product for their hobby. Repro gear isn't taking away sales from the real target market, no one in the military or law enforcement switched to Pantac, and it's not like Eagle had a cheaper Consumer-grade line of products. (I actually do support Magpul since they actually bothered to do something for airsofters; IMO they have grounds to complain about knocked off items.)

[dragwindsor]

Originally Posted by Drake

Honestly, I have to wonder how much the "big boy" gear manufacturers actually care about airsofters using cloned gear, beyond the knee-jerk "zomfg infringement" reaction. It's not like any of those companies ever produced something with airsofters in mind and the market share they lose to companies like Pantac is a market share they wouldn't have had in the first place.

Those airsofters who do care for the real deal items DO go out and buy bona fide Eagle and whatnot; but for the average player for whom $600+ for a CIRAS is NOT going to happen? Eagle never had that sale and companies like Pantac are offering players an affordable lookalike product for their hobby. Repro gear isn't taking away sales from the real target market, no one in the military or law enforcement switched to Pantac, and it's not like Eagle had a cheaper Consumer-grade line of products. (I actually do support Magpul since they actually bothered to do something for airsofters; IMO they have grounds to complain about knocked off items.)

+1

Preach it brother.

Originally Posted by Farmboy

If you go this route, talk to MadMorbius.

That's still on my radar but the gear shop frankly has taken a back seat to my family for now. I still intend to get some stuff mass produced at some point.

Originally Posted by Drake

Honestly, I have to wonder how much the "big boy" gear manufacturers actually care about airsofters using cloned gear, beyond the knee-jerk "zomfg infringement" reaction. It's not like any of those companies ever produced something with airsofters in mind and the market share they lose to companies like Pantac is a market share they wouldn't have had in the first place.

Those airsofters who do care for the real deal items DO go out and buy bona fide Eagle and whatnot; but for the average player for whom $600+ for a CIRAS is NOT going to happen? Eagle never had that sale and companies like Pantac are offering players an affordable lookalike product for their hobby. Repro gear isn't taking away sales from the real target market, no one in the military or law enforcement switched to Pantac, and it's not like Eagle had a cheaper Consumer-grade line of products. (I actually do support Magpul since they actually bothered to do something for airsofters; IMO they have grounds to complain about knocked off items.)

If you designed a product, went to the trouble of having it tested and the production templates made, then sourced the production and managed the entire marketing cycle of that product, it doesn't matter one iota who steals it and who they sell it to.

Not *exactly* the same thing, but "Wyvern" did this to me a few years back with a chest rig I modded for a customer. The basic rig was fucking useless, but cheap. I reinforced it, added molle panels, enhanced the shoulder straps, added all kinds of funtionality to it and wouldn't you know it, a few months later the "Improved" model showed up in eBay stores, with all my modifications "standard" on the new model.

FYI, the only place I posted those photos was...ironically, here on ASC.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Farmboy

Capitalism is producing a product, better, faster, less expensive or more advanced to beat out the other competitors.

Capitalism is not breaking copyright, patent laws to beat out the competitors.

It's one thing to come close to a design, it's another to do exact copies including logos.

Some have no choice if they want to continue to sell to the US military. They need it produced in the US or no government business.

If you go this route, talk to MadMorbius.

Many companies don't bother with international patents.. and with the manufacturing and economic boom in China.. its not surprising that the enforcement of Patent laws will lag behind the drive for profit.

The West has a refined legal procees for maintaining design and Patent integrity..These laws are literally centuries old. in the "wild east" of capitalism no such traditions exist...

Without the internet to open up international markets for every producer of manufactured goods none of this would be an issue. But thanks to Globalism and the internet Everyone competes with everyone planet wide.. and in some places its not a level playing field.

For consumers this means wide selection and lower prices.. which is good.
For manufacturers it means serious threats to profitiablitly. Which is bad..

For me.. I prefer "real gear" from top end companies.. but I have to admit the PANTAC stuff is approching that quality.. I would not call it "repro gear" as much of that is costume... PANTAC seems to be making real gear suited for real use. but at prices that are hard to ignore.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by Drake

Honestly, I have to wonder how much the "big boy" gear manufacturers actually care about airsofters using cloned gear, beyond the knee-jerk "zomfg infringement" reaction. It's not like any of those companies ever produced something with airsofters in mind and the market share they lose to companies like Pantac is a market share they wouldn't have had in the first place.

Those airsofters who do care for the real deal items DO go out and buy bona fide Eagle and whatnot; but for the average player for whom $600+ for a CIRAS is NOT going to happen? Eagle never had that sale and companies like Pantac are offering players an affordable lookalike product for their hobby. Repro gear isn't taking away sales from the real target market, no one in the military or law enforcement switched to Pantac, and it's not like Eagle had a cheaper Consumer-grade line of products. (I actually do support Magpul since they actually bothered to do something for airsofters; IMO they have grounds to complain about knocked off items.)

The reality of the matter is this:

The main reason why Pantac representative is here, is because they need to expand market exposure in to this side of the globe. Why do they not have exposure here? The big reason has to do with legalities, and as you've all mentioned, there is this big issue of patent law on intellectual property that is being outright copied. No store is willing to sell these products for fear of repercussion from the owners of the copyright.

There HAVE been cases of North American distributors being prosecuted by the big boys of this industry. I'm not going to mention who the players in that case were, but let's just say one such defendant was an ASC member.

Truth is... Pantac has GREAT workmanship at an unbeatable price. They may not have the most original designs and concepts, but that's where the designers come in. China's greatest resource is labour and manpower. Just look at the value that went in to the Beijing Olympics opening and closing. TENS OF THOUSANDS of people were doing it voluntarily, and that was China's ways of showing to the world: "We have manpower, and we can use it."

Are they the most original? No. But one thing they're good at is building the stuff. If you have ideas for gear and want to look in to getting it mass produced, look towards Pantac - they have the resources: manpower, labour and material AND their build quality is top-notch considering the price. Many contractors and operators around the world DO use Pantac gear. For the price to workmanship ratio, it really is hard to beat. If it's good enough for real world use, then it's good enough for an airsofter.

Original gear designs CAN make it to North America, where dealers are SAFE from legal issues and will be able to sell your product on this side of the globe. If you have ideas, pitch it to them.

Now THERE'S capitalism for ya.