Indoor CQB FPS POLL

[theshaneler]

Cushak... you say that one point to airsoft is mill sim... but then say that we should wear gear that lets us feel the hits... WTF.... when in CQC, the millitary dosnt wear t-shirts. with alot of full length camo it is hard to tell what is a hit. if you are aiming for mill sim you cant wear gear that alows you to feel it!
and as for the FPS, do you guys really need to complain over 50-30 fps like really grow up... i realize that you might not want to go with full face mask, so just get something to cover your teeth.
just cuz the max is 350 dosnt mean that you will be at any less of a disadvantage if your gun is at 320 or even 300... with short distences like this, if you think that you will be at a disadvantage for range, thats what they invented the hop up for!!!!
with an FPS limit of under 350, you eliminate any new airsofters as most of them can not mod a stock gun to play on the feild. and if you say that you do not want to play with new airsofters, then you are wishing for the end of our sport (please please please do not expand on this idea... there are enough sky is falling threads here) to ensure the development of our beautiful sport we must grow!
i know for sure that i am NOT modding my guns that are well tuned for all events in my province to play in a field with lower FPS limmit that is not necessary!

[CamoGames]

Originally Posted by Arnisador

You'd best be making this quite clear then, my friend. It has the potential of becoming a bone of contention otherwise.


Here's the real deal though. You are hitting on one of the things that makes event planning a big pain in the ass.

You...can't...please...everyone.

Make the rules for your event, and stick by them. By the time you finish compromising, you'll be three months past the event date, and everyone will have found something else.

Those who want to participate under your ruleset will. Those who don't want to, won't.

But you aren't going to come up with a rule-set that everyone can happily agree to. You will get criticized. You may lose potential customers. And its all out of your control, once you set the rules for the event.

The flipside is, if you don't set the rules of the event, you won't get the event anyways.

For the record, I put this poll up with semi-auto in mind. I apologize for not stating that in the beginning, but at this point I don't think it matters.


Now, I know I will not please everyone, and if I had been involved with Airsoft for years I would not even have asked this question because I would have already known the answer through experience. However, I am brand new (started this in January) so it is in my best interest as a business owner to ask and go the way I see fit after I have the info I need.

[Firewalker]

Well, now you've got a mostly official notice that 350 is accepted widely across canada.

As for the Semi/Full debate? Just have two different slots of game time, one with full auto, one without. Alternate the slots. I know that I rarely use full auto. Hell, I've got an AEG that only shoots semi and I'm fine with it. This way people who are playing full auto and want a "break" can hop into the semi slot, while people in the semi-slot who want to give the full auto a try can hop into that.

It's fair, it's going to please the most amount of people, and you've got a standard FPS MAXIMUM (that's the key word, maximum, not all guns are going to be shooting 350, hell, they'll most likely be 320-340) to go by. Setting up semi/full games from there should be easy.

Hell, buy two packs of zip ties, one red, one yellow. The ones that meet the full auto requirement (I believe you mentioned 320) get a yellow zip tie. The ones that go over that, get a red one. Makes life easy for you.

[The Saint]

I think Firewalker's suggestion of alternation blocks of semi/auto is a valid one. Personally, I wouldn't play a no-auto game unless it's a pistol/shotgun-only game. I played CQB this winter almost entirely with just a pistol on semi against people with AEGs on full auto and had a lot of fun. IMO, having people running around with replicas of automatic weapons but limiting them to semi is something of a mood killer, even if one is on the receiving end.

[Bissa]

Originally Posted by dave_e

HACK THE BONE, HACK THE BONE! Hmmm what about full auto? Got an comments on taking a full auto burst at 350 up close?....aside from...body armour lol.

I got shot from 3 feet with a gun shooting at 400FPS and it diddent hurt that much. this was this weekend at a game i went to. that was wearing my camo and my tac vest when it was undone.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Because then you have to actually shoot at your target and not just spray an area.

People with poor shooting skills, get better, People with good shooting skills earn success.

In addition I enforce a "realcap" mag limit.

If you are running a DEagle.. you get 7 rounds per mag,

mp5 has 30

Most people with realcap loads... even if they could fire auto , don't.

[Endymion]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

If you are running a DEagle.. you get 7 rounds per mag,

If you are running a DE, you get faster at reloading more quickly.

[TokyoSeven]

Unless shes a .357 DE then you get nine, but come on! if you got a DE it has to be a hand cannon.

[kmsakura]

Originally Posted by The Saint

I think Firewalker's suggestion of alternation blocks of semi/auto is a valid one. Personally, I wouldn't play a no-auto game unless it's a pistol/shotgun-only game. I played CQB this winter almost entirely with just a pistol on semi against people with AEGs on full auto and had a lot of fun. IMO, having people running around with replicas of automatic weapons but limiting them to semi is something of a mood killer, even if one is on the receiving end.

this is exactly what i was thinking. isn't the advantage of a long arm the ability to place two or three shots in a target to make sure they go down? besides from my limited experience its harder to corner quickly with an mp5 compared to a pistol so people who buy an AEG should not be put at a disadvantage. there should simply be an cap on the amount of ammunition so people don't go overboard. though i guess some people will abuse auto and start using their guns like paint ball markers. *sits in corner and hoses* :P

[Firewalker]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

In addition I enforce a "realcap" mag limit.

This is one thing that no one has really touched on. Mag limits.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most airsofters use midcaps. At XT they use midcaps, and only allow midcaps (if memory serves me correctly; haven't been in ages).

Midcaps with semi-only @ 5 mags/ person (average) = a lot of unspent ammo.
Real caps with semi-only @ 5 mags/ person = probably need to refill.
Midcaps with full auto @ 5 mags per person = probably need to refill.
Real caps with full auto @ 5 mags/ person = either a lot of chosen shots OR short games.

Personally, I think if it's gonna be a full auto game, it should allow midcaps, for the simple reason that it will let the games stretch out longer. People still have to be smart with their ammo, but they can also be a bit more liberal and have a bit more "Action Movie" moments. Not saying that noobs will be as responsible with their ammo, but most experienced players will have no problem maintaining trigger control.

If it's gonna be semi-only, then real-caps (or mids filled to real-cap capacity) will make it a lot more interesting. when you've got 340 bb's (that's 68 x 5) and are only firing semi, it'll take you a while to run out. Hell, using my SR-25, I have to try hard to go through one mag of 120 in a skrim.

Though I do have to say, I'd love to try a real-cap full auto game sometime. It'd be nice to see what it's like.

Also, another way to limit the ammo, is to restrict the amount of mags allowed on a person. If you, say, do decide to do 350, full auto. You can limit each person to 4 mags and only 4 mags (midcap). This will promote more responsibility. Hell, if people are stuck with only 272 bb's, they're not going to want to spray and pray if that means they've gotta spend ~5 minutes at respawn reloading.

This is all my opinion though. I've not run an airsoft CQB building before so take it as just an airsofter's opinion.

EDIT: And for the record, the "Blocks" concept is not my own, just repeating some very good ideas that I happened to agree with that have been brought up elsewhere.

[Cushak]

Originally Posted by theshaneler

Cushak... you say that one point to airsoft is mill sim... but then say that we should wear gear that lets us feel the hits... WTF.... when in CQC, the millitary dosnt wear t-shirts. with alot of full length camo it is hard to tell what is a hit. if you are aiming for mill sim you cant wear gear that alows you to feel it!

Did I say tee-shirts? No. So don't assume I'm meaning that. At close ranges you can feel a 280 gun through regular BDU's easily. A plate carrier with inserst you aren't going to feel it even if it's going 450 fps.

Originally Posted by theshaneler

and as for the FPS, do you guys really need to complain over 50-30 fps like really grow up... i realize that you might not want to go with full face mask, so just get something to cover your teeth.

I was never complaining about 50-30 fps. I merely said that I'm of the opinion that a high fps isn't necessary in CQB.

Originally Posted by theshaneler

just cuz the max is 350 dosnt mean that you will be at any less of a disadvantage if your gun is at 320 or even 300... with short distences like this, if you think that you will be at a disadvantage for range, thats what they invented the hop up for!!!!

That was never an issue. But yes, you would notice a range difference between a 350 fps, and 300 fps gun, assuming similar quality internals and properly tuned hop-ups. The only issue with range mentioned, was that in the CQC facility camo-games is talking about, egagement distances are so short, it isn't a factor. Meaning you don't need a hot gun to reach out and touch someone.

Originally Posted by theshaneler

with an FPS limit of under 350, you eliminate any new airsofters as most of them can not mod a stock gun to play on the feild. and if you say that you do not want to play with new airsofters, then you are wishing for the end of our sport (please please please do not expand on this idea... there are enough sky is falling threads here) to ensure the development of our beautiful sport we must grow!

Cry me a river. A spring is ~$10-~$20. If you can afford a gun, you can afford a spring if that's what your local rules require. Swapping them out is very is, all people have to do is research, and go slow their first time.

Originally Posted by theshaneler

i know for sure that i am NOT modding my guns that are well tuned for all events in my province to play in a field with lower FPS limmit that is not necessary!

Than you'd be choosing to not play there. Whoop-de-doo. I for one feel that these games are worth being flexible for, so if I had to take my gun down to 280, I'd do it.



Semi/Auto - whatever, both are fun and present unique challenges.

[Firewalker]

Originally Posted by Cushak

Than you'd be choosing to not play there. Whoop-de-doo. I for one feel that these games are worth being flexible for, so if I had to take my gun down to 280, I'd do it.

So, a person should have to reduce the life expectancy of a perfectly working stock gun by half just to appease a clear minority (based on this poll) of people who are afraid bb's going barely fast enough to break bare skin?

Perhaps what needs to be done is everyone needs to find out what the community at large uses and use that across the board. Set a standard for everyone in the country as far as FPS goes. Standardization is the problem, not "ouch factor" or anything like that. All our CQB places are different. Some have corridors that don't accommodate the lower fps (in that a shot from a pistol doing 280 sometimes even drops off before reaching the end). That's why we have the higher FPS, on top of that, all the gear people wear, some that's going 280-300 when it finally hits someone isn't going to be felt. It's barely going to be heard in the raucous rooms of a CQB arena.

My question is why lower FPS because of some perceived threat that doesn't actually exist? Please, if you can find evidence showing that 350 is significantly more dangerous than 300 when following safety precautions, I'd love to hear it. Is 350 more dangerous than 300? Not if you're wearing the proper protection, so any point on that is moot.

The only way ~350 FPS is going to hurt someone is if they have a T-Shirt and Bermuda Shorts on and aren't wearing safety equipment (eye/face protection). If you show up in that, you're begging to be hurt. The honus is on the player, not the location, to protect themselves adequately from any threat, real or percieved, to their safety and comfort.

Besides, the poll speaks for itself. The community has shown that 350 is an acceptable limit. And that's what it is. A L-i-m-i-t. It's not a target. No one has ever said we're all going to show up with guns shooting 350 on the button. But reducing to 320 or even 300 when a stock gun is shooting 340-345 is just ludicrous. Literally, it's 70 dollars and half the life expectancy (or more if the user is inexperienced) of the gun vs 15 dollars for a face mask and a free pair of testicles should they decide to grown them.

[Cushak]

So, a person should have to reduce the life expectancy of a perfectly working stock gun by half just to appease a clear minority (based on this poll) of people who are afraid bb's going barely fast enough to break bare skin?

Most guns these days newer people are buying have a short life expectancy as it is, and many need to be opened to give them good performance.

The only way ~350 FPS is going to hurt someone is if they have a T-Shirt and Bermuda Shorts on and aren't wearing safety equipment (eye/face protection). If you show up in that, you're begging to be hurt.

I've witnessed a lot of dumb, stupid things at games. Last year a group of us went to alberta for a big game, while there, somebody held a pistol against one of our our guys' skulls and pulled the trigger.

So if the situation allows for a lower fps (no need to worry about range etc), why not?

The honus is on the player, not the location, to protect themselves adequately from any threat, real or percieved, to their safety and comfort.

The honus is also on the shooter, and gun owner to use it in a reasonable, responsible manner. In CQB, having a hot gun does not affect skill. So, why? Because some people out there won't spend $10 on a spring, and a few hours learning how to take apart a mechbox. (once you do it the first time, it takes about 20-30 minutes to clean, re-grease, and swap a spring.)

Literally, it's 70 dollars...

$70? fps issue aside, who charges $70 for a spring swap? Who pays for that either?

half the life expectancy

If it's a TM, it's 280 stock anyways. If it's a clone, you could even accidentally increase the life span.


My point isn't about "not having testicles", it's about what's the point? If it was about "having the balls", why doesn't someone just enlist and go over to the sandbox to get shot at with real bullets?

I'm not arguing against people who's opinion is that 350 is a good limit for this CQB building (Ultra tight engagements). I'm only asking for a reason other than a) "Grow some balls" or b) "I'm too lazy to change my springs". Other than those two, why would you say is a good reason. (I don't consider "life expectancy" a good reason. The only two mech boxes I can see this affecting are TM's (280 anyways) and PTWs)

[TokyoSeven]

I miss my testicles.

EDIT: Stupid spam bots, they do go after polls!

[BBS]

that is the longest bot post i've ever seen. "now includes fake youtube links, and pornographic pics!". Reported.

back on topic: i prefer 330 fps and under for cqb.