Dr StrangeBB

[MADDOG]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

soft tissue + .28's = pain. Its a solution thats worked well for me.

Other than that, well said Brian. In a one-on-one that is a good philosophy to adopt. If you're a doormat or perhaps a sub.


/RANT START
Unfortunately there are instances where you have two or more teams going at it and you have one group exercising that philosophy and the other doesn't and doesn't call hits, and the game collapses because strategic and tactical objectives are lost to playing zen footsy with a bulletproof asshole. And whats worse than one bulletproof asshole is a team of bulletproof assholes. I've seen many strategies to deal with it, but my favorite is to just let Claymore loose on them. Its very satisfying watching a 250lb Scotsman drop his AK, and walk through a hail of fire and grab some guy by the scruff of the neck in order to gain his attention for some one on one counselling. It usually solves the problem fairly quickly. I believe making examples of cheaters and publically HUMILIATING THEM is a good place to start, rather than to condone their behaviour by passively tolerating it. I've said it many times before and I will say it here. TOLERATION IS A FORM OF CONSENT!

This does not mean I presume that if I shoot in someone's direction I will automatically hit them. But after 5 years of this game, when I have to unload a highcap on someone and they still don't call out, I won't tolerate that and I promise to be loud, rude, obnoxious and will do my best to spoil that person's day, because he's spoiling mine. Conservatively speaking, I think I spend between BBs, batteries, gas, game fee, etc, somewhere near the $100 per game mark (amortize out your equipment costs too) and when some asshole deprives me of my pastime because he decides to turn on GOD MODE, I believe that person is spending MY money on something I did not pay for. He paid to be part of a simulation that we all agreed to, and then he chooses to break that simulation and ruin my enjoyment - I didn't sign up for that. That person has no place at a milsim airsoft event.
/RANT END

My 0.02 cents

+1,

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

soft tissue + .28's = pain. Its a solution thats worked well for me.

Other than that, well said Brian. In a one-on-one that is a good philosophy to adopt. If you're a doormat or perhaps a sub.


/RANT START
Unfortunately there are instances where you have two or more teams going at it and you have one group exercising that philosophy and the other doesn't and doesn't call hits, and the game collapses because strategic and tactical objectives are lost to playing zen footsy with a bulletproof asshole. And whats worse than one bulletproof asshole is a team of bulletproof assholes. I've seen many strategies to deal with it, but my favorite is to just let Claymore loose on them. Its very satisfying watching a 250lb Scotsman drop his AK, and walk through a hail of fire and grab some guy by the scruff of the neck in order to gain his attention for some one on one counselling. It usually solves the problem fairly quickly. I believe making examples of cheaters and publically HUMILIATING THEM is a good place to start, rather than to condone their behaviour by passively tolerating it. I've said it many times before and I will say it here. TOLERATION IS A FORM OF CONSENT!

This does not mean I presume that if I shoot in someone's direction I will automatically hit them. But after 5 years of this game, when I have to unload a highcap on someone and they still don't call out, I won't tolerate that and I promise to be loud, rude, obnoxious and will do my best to spoil that person's day, because he's spoiling mine. Conservatively speaking, I think I spend between BBs, batteries, gas, game fee, etc, somewhere near the $100 per game mark (amortize out your equipment costs too) and when some asshole deprives me of my pastime because he decides to turn on GOD MODE, I believe that person is spending MY money on something I did not pay for. He paid to be part of a simulation that we all agreed to, and then he chooses to break that simulation and ruin my enjoyment - I didn't sign up for that. That person has no place at a milsim airsoft event.
/RANT END

My 0.02 cents

Didn't read this before unti lit was quoted, I actually rally like this approach and might actually do it someday. Well, not the 250lb guy thing, but just dropping everything and take a stroll up to the fucker(s) that cheating, and tell them to get the fuck off the field. Might be enough to stir up some nervousness and make them fly straight, if not, at least it'll lead to the next part, outline to the hosts and get their asses banned. Border War was a sight to behold, have never seen that amount of not calling hits before in my 3 years of playing airsoft in Ontario and Quebec. Not that I persoanlly shot someone who didn't call hit (like Scarecrow said, 0.28g + soft tissue = pain), but I witnessed a few times guys didn't call hits even though they had their own personal blizzard around their person.

BTW, I enjoyed hearing the Russian team discussing stuff on the radio, and yelling "*****!!!" into my radio a few times. Still wonder what they thought of that.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

That I believe that blatant disregard of the conventions of acceptable behavior should be tolerated...

What I am Advocating is not "acceptance of Cheating"

I am advocating only a "Shoot to effect" No one should go away from an engagement muttering.. "he should have taken that shot" He should not have a choice as he was shot till he took it.

It is unreasonable to expect a person wearing 3 layers of kit.. including 2 layers of magazines to react the same as someone wearing a t shirt to being shot. It will very likely take more "pressure" to get acknowlegement of the hit. This is often compounded with newer players who are frequently not experienced with discerning hits.

Some targets are harder than others.. and need to be shot more to get the result expected.. All I am Saying is shoot em till they go down.. I'd rather deal with people complaining about being shoot too much than deal with people complaining about "cheaters"

Personally If you wanna talk about "cheating" I feel it is a greater cheat to employ a bush for cover.. when it is obvious to all that 3 overlapping Poplar leaves won't stop a bullet. However this is common practice that is little questioned.

One thing that I really object to is branding groups of people as "Cheaters" when we all know that one or two boneheads on a field of 50 people is all it takes for the entire game to go a bit sour and rampant accusatons of widescale cheating to be levied.

As a host... I have a responsibiilty to deal with allegations of people ignoring hits.. despite my personal views on the issue.. I have no issues what so ever turfing someone who has been confirmed to be ignoring hits... I'll do it in a heartbeat... if I think the allegations are well grounded.. and I have done it when it was warranted.
I do it to preserve the Community Standard expectations... As any host should.

Rest assured I am 100% behind the .28 full auto solution.. in fact that is exactly what I am advocating.. Make cheating too painfull to consider.

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

I am talking about not flying off the handle over what could very well be an honest mistake.. There is no need to give the benefit of the doubt.. when doubt is absent.. Fortunatly this is rare..

I agree, and honest mistakes are easy to spot compared to blatant cheating.

Unfortunately the last few games I played last summer, as compared to many years past, I've noticed an increase in the amount of God Mode. Its always people I don't know and that nobody else seems to know or be able to identify.

Perhaps I should get out more, I dunno.

[Danke]

Do any of these fellows trundle along muttering "tank tank tank tank" under their breath?

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by CDN_Stalker

take a stroll up to the fucker(s) that cheating, and tell them to get the fuck off the field. Might be enough to stir up some nervousness and make them fly straight, if not, at least it'll lead to the next part, outline to the hosts and get their asses banned.

I was being somewhat bombastic to make a point, but, what I am really saying is if the "cheating" is so bad that the simulation is destroyed already, you have nothing to lose in correcting things by the direct approach. I don't advocate flying off the handle at the first sign of a questionable offense but rather going after those demonstrating a repeated disregard for the conventions that we all as airsofters have agreed to abid by... unfortunately it does not take many bad apples to derail a simulation.

Use the 'reasonable man' test. Is it reasonable to react to this - separating your emotions from it (as hard as it may seem at the time) and say, in an after-action report, would people look upon my attempt to correct the problem as disruptive or constructive. You want constructive obviously, so it really is a judgement call of sorts - not something I think one should make their first reaction - but at some point along the continuum it becomes a necessary response in order to prevent it from continuing.

Look, I KNOW some people at times think Clay and I are or can, or have the capacity to be disruptive at a game because of our intolerance towards this, but its a principled stance that we have decided to take after many years of seeing the alternative possible responses and their results. If it makes me less popular because of it, so be it, but, I do know people signing up for a Scarecrow/WP game KNOW bullshit won't be tolerated, and the game does run smoother because of it.

YMMV.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

I agree, and honest mistakes are easy to spot compared to blatant cheating.

Unfortunately the last few games I played last summer, as compared to many years past, I've noticed an increase in the amount of God Mode. Its always people I don't know and that nobody else seems to know or be able to identify.

Perhaps I should get out more, I dunno.

It seems it is often people who no one know. New players... improperly indoctrinated... Got their gun.. got their gear... and off to a game....with no one taking the time to clue them in. They are excited... and more than a little unclear on the rules...... Who"s fault is it if we let such people to just show up.. and meet expectations that they are not informed about?


This is exactly the reason why I require new players to participate in an indoctrination process at TTAC3. It allows me to put everyone on the same page ... then no one can say " I did not know"

Maybe what we need is a standard Indoctrination course for all new players.

The Sniper course is becoming accepted as credentials for the safe use of Higher power weapons.... Maybe we need to require people to meet a standard to participate? Or at the very least have a mandatory mentoring process.... Aw crap... now I'm talking about the trappings of an Association.

[Griffin]

As a new player I would love to have such an Indoctrination course. Its been confusing enough at times trying to understand the laws etc. I know when I read threads such as this, I worry a lot about doing things right.

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by Griffin

As a new player I would love to have such an Indoctrination course. Its been confusing enough at times trying to understand the laws etc. I know when I read threads such as this, I worry a lot about doing things right.

If you're operating principles start with honor and integrity, there isn't anything you can do wrong in a game that wouldn't be advised on in a friendly manner by an experienced player.

And, yes, Brian with what appears to be the demise of the team farm system (teams are now much more closed entities) there should be some sort of indoc opportunity for new players. CANOP is/was/shall be such an opportunity.

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

I was being somewhat bombastic to make a point, but, what I am really saying is if the "cheating" is so bad that the simulation is destroyed already, you have nothing to lose in correcting things by the direct approach. I don't advocate flying off the handle at the first sign of a questionable offense but rather going after those demonstrating a repeated disregard for the conventions that we all as airsofters have agreed to abid by... unfortunately it does not take many bad apples to derail a simulation.

Use the 'reasonable man' test. Is it reasonable to react to this - separating your emotions from it (as hard as it may seem at the time) and say, in an after-action report, would people look upon my attempt to correct the problem as disruptive or constructive. You want constructive obviously, so it really is a judgement call of sorts - not something I think one should make their first reaction - but at some point along the continuum it becomes a necessary response in order to prevent it from continuing.

Look, I KNOW some people at times think Clay and I are or can, or have the capacity to be disruptive at a game because of our intolerance towards this, but its a principled stance that we have decided to take after many years of seeing the alternative possible responses and their results. If it makes me less popular because of it, so be it, but, I do know people signing up for a Scarecrow/WP game KNOW bullshit won't be tolerated, and the game does run smoother because of it.

YMMV.

Not saying I'd take that approach and let my temper fly (of which I have none really, as shown when I met Sha-Do, he yelled at me in the face that I have an attitude, and my reaction was "HUH?", Drake who was there as well and knows me went "HUH? Stalker with an attitude? Not fucking likely!").

I shoot a guy, he doesn't call hit, if I saw the hit, I yell at the guy, 95% of the time they realize they got spotted not calling hit, they raise their hand and walk off. If I have to shoot a guy again, fine by me. But the once in a while approach you presented, just drop out of your position in the game and walk up to the guy and tell him can be very effective. I understood your words as just that, face to face "Smarten up!", not literally grabbing the guy and pinning him to a tree. Tempers should never be allowed to fly at any airsoft game. That is MUCH more of a stain on anyone's reputation than repeated not calling hits.

[Zeonprime]

Originally Posted by Ronan

Hit my finger or all around me i always call the hit.

One thing i don't like tho, people shooting high up in the tree's so that the bb's hit people on their way down... doubt real bullet will do that but heh.

shh wanker the adults are talking haha

Wildcard, I heard about that Old fart convention holding you back... speaking of which get your liverspotted ass out to splatters in the new year.

there are no cheaters.. just hard targets.. there are no "invunerable" players.. just armoured combatants

Lol..that's great!

The idea of keep putting rounds into the guy til he does call hit is wise advise indeed (recall telling a person that on thursday as we had a minor case of NCHs in one skirmish)...just part of the piss off with "Armoured Combatants" is that the good players do call their hits even when dealing with ACs and in the end I think that is what is most annoying about the ACs...is that they keep pushing forward and the players who do call hits are sitting out.

Brian you and I deal with small enough groups with indoor games that we can do something about the issue with ID'd cheaters, inform other hosts. I put that warning on the Splatters games this year... You break my rules and cause problems I'll make sure all the other hosts in the area know about you. Maybe we should start doing that with cheaters? ( I know it won't eliminate the problem since indoor venues attract different players and less players overall)... ok now I'm rambling in hopes I can avoid shoveling snow at a house that is not mine..

Maybe not an association of players cause in the number of attempts over the years it has never happened... maybe an association of HOSTS... smaller group. There's what..7 of us in Ontario (primary hosts, not "minions")

[Kingafk2008]

Originally Posted by Ronan

Hit my finger or all around me i always call the hit.

One thing i don't like tho, people shooting high up in the tree's so that the bb's hit people on their way down... doubt real bullet will do that but heh.

Yes real bullets just fly up to heaven......I guess you have never heard the term...."what goes up must come down"?

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by Zeonprime

Maybe not an association of players cause in the number of attempts over the years it has never happened... maybe an association of HOSTS... smaller group. There's what..7 of us in Ontario (primary hosts, not "minions")

I thought onf that a while ago, and as long as you're okay with setting yourself up with being accused of running a star chamber, or being elitist, no problem. I don't have an issue with it. I also had some ideas for a sign up system hosts could use to manage attendance at games and rate players, similar to an eBay rating. At a certain level you could ban or temp ban certain people from signing up when they reach a certain threshold, or, bring them to the attention of a group in charge of dealing with players like that (other players who are not the 7 hosts so we don't get accused of nepotism or anything). We would just need a good PHP programmer to make that app, I had it designed a while ago...

[Capt. Tyco]

I remember the first hit I scored with my sniper rifle. I hit the guy in the leg during an ambush scenario and he just kept going and preceded to kill me. I dont usually call other peoples hit because I feel like an asshole when I do. I went up to him after the game was over and told him that I had actually hit him and that he was out. He preceded to deny it even after I told him that I watched that BB hit him with a 7x scope. It was kind of sad that after the fact he still refused to admit that he was hit. However if I had had my AEG with me my polict would have been to keep hitting him until he call his hit. Like mcguyver said: "You show up to a game with a head, arms, legs and a torso, expect all of them to get hit."

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by King

Yes real bullets just fly up to heaven......I guess you have never heard the term...."what goes up must come down"?

Those rounds don't count as hits in airsoft. Why retards consider them to is beyond me.