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November 24th, 2006, 18:35
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#31 |
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GBB Whisperer
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The Phoenix gears self-shim through the use of springs on an axle of each gear. This allows them to independently move up and down as required, but that implies that there is potential for contact at some point. That could be how that one tooth on my spur gear snapped off. It's sad to see that such an expensive gear set is made from pot metal. It would've been nice if they were case hardened steel...
Here's an installation diagram:  The red circled item is a thrust bearing - note, not all Phoenix gear sets come with that thrust bearing. AFAIK, it was only offered when the Phoenix gear sets were first introduced as limited edition items. Full installation instruction located here: http://www.pbase.com/illusive_airsoft/phoenix The SystemA Turbo is the new anodized ones with the neodymium magnets... those motors are awesomely nuts. I had a chance to play with a Magnum motor (the red high torque version of those new motors)... ANY ferrous object within a 2" vicinity will gravitate towards the motor and hang on with a death grip. I installed it in a PSG-1, but the magnets are so powerful that they won't allow the spring/piston to decompress through mechanical release of the anti-reversal latch. The magnets are so strong that it's difficult to manually turn the axle, even by hand. But besides that, I think they're great motors for standard AEG applications. The Magnum motor worked REALLY well for cranking that beast spring I had in that PSG-1. The OEM Marui motor would heat up to the point where it was HOT to the touch. The Relay circuit I installed would also heat up to the point where it would literally burn you if you touched it. The Magnum took all the torque with ease with barely any increase in temps.
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 Advanced Airsoft Armaments and Enhancements Quick to the gun, sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas Accuracy, Power, Speed Last edited by ILLusion; November 24th, 2006 at 18:37.. |
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November 24th, 2006, 23:25
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#32 |
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Here is my "possible" solution to you problem....
It would need a few modifications to you system... but it should be nice in the end... Don't try this unless you have the knowlegde to do it... or it will problably fail/break your gun. Look around on the web to find a Brushless motor. They are around 100$ each usually... One that possibly will work (not tested yet!) is the CastleCreations Mamba 25 motor. I recommend that you stick to 5000'ish Kv (it is the speed of the motor). Then use ULTRA HIGH TORQUE gears, and shim them to the perfection. If not your gears/piston/bearings will wear or break. Also use a 7mm mechbox with ball bearings. The hard part it to modify the trigger assembly to have the Speed controller for that motor to work. You will have to find a servo simulation circuit and some place to have the esc/servo simulator. Then wire the servo simulator using a Boolean switch (logical switch) to bypass the potentiometer of the servo simulator. Then wire the whole thing and you get a 65000 rpm motor with insane torque. This should be helping with your gear dying all the time. Also... these motors only use about 1/3 of the energy of normal motor and have no maintenance whatever. Try using stock spring, then upgrade your spring lightly if it works. *edit* oh and you will have to find a way to fit your motor gear on there... but should not be that hard.... |
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November 25th, 2006, 04:43
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#33 | |
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GBB Whisperer
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Quote:
That doesn't sound like a feasible solution. My biggest question about your proposal is WHY in the world would he need so much torque to crank a spring so light? It makes no real practical sense. A high speed gear set can handle the torque requirements of a light spring just fine. Even System's SUPER high speed gear set can handle the torque requirements without breaking a sweat. Ultra torque up gears is a waste of time, money, effort, and lost ROF. My next question is how putting such a high rpm and high torque motor in to the gearbox will "help" with the prevention of failed gears. I surmise his problem is due to a clashing of the gears and piston. How will MORE speed going in to the gears make it any better? It won't. As already mentioned, my feeling on the issue is that the piston is not returning to battery fast enough before the sector gear comes spinning around. Putting in a heavier spring is the easiest way to make this set up work, but bear in mind that being in Japan, he is restricted to 0.98J as the output of his gun. Making the gears spin faster won't help the issue and will only crash them in to the piston at a faster rate. I would highly recommend the short stroke piston/gear route.
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Advanced Airsoft Armaments and Enhancements Quick to the gun, sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas Accuracy, Power, Speed Last edited by ILLusion; November 25th, 2006 at 04:46.. |
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November 25th, 2006, 04:57
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#34 |
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Delierious Designer of Dastardly Detonations
    Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: in the dark recesses of some metal chip filled machine shop
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Well, he's in Japan. If he wants crazy ROF, go find someone with experience with butterfly gears. There are some sector gears out there for short stroke pistons with two short sets of teeth for two piston pulls per sector rotation. The need special tappet plate profiles to clear two tappet pull pins. Two semi auto cutoff lobes too.
That's a neat looking gearset Illusion. Looks like it depends on a common plane for the spur and sector gear i.e. busing seats that are coplanar for the unsprung end of the gears. I guess they made the bevel gear pinion a bit on the long side to assure full engagement with the spur gear.
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November 25th, 2006, 05:19
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#35 |
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GBB Whisperer
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Correct, the bevel gear's pinion is extended much longer than normal.
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November 25th, 2006, 15:02
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#36 |
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Question - since the bevel gear is the only one experiencing any lateral torque, why would the other gears need to be shimmed accurately?
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November 25th, 2006, 16:31
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#37 | |
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Quote:
Let's see it this way... We have 2 mechboxes.... pushing exactly the same ROF in the end. first one is using ultra high speed motor and high speed gear set. It has to us the stock spring or any other soft one in order to be able to fire. this motor can develop 150 oz/in. torque at 40000 rpm. say ratio is 1.25:1 we want a lot of speed... 32000 rpm and about 187.5 oz/in. torque. the second one uses a higher speed motor. This motor should not be able to be used because it spins too fast. Then you have a infinite torque gear set to speed it down. let's say this motor develop hmm 100 oz/in. torque at 65000 rpm. ration here is around 2:1 so 32500 rpm and around 200 oz/in. torque. since we got a lot more end-torque, we can have a higher compression rate spring in this mechbox. So in the end, the gears endure a lot less of presure because the motor can give a lot more power. We use the same "tricks" in racing to tune the gears of a "bashing" type vehicule (Like a big monster truck). the whole gearbox get's a lot more efficient while using a smaller and usually lighter motor. |
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November 25th, 2006, 19:04
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#38 | |
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GBB Whisperer
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Quote:
b) To reduce friction between the sector gear and spur gear c) To reduce friction between the spur gear and bevel gear. Too much side to side play in a gear set can cause excessive wear in both the gear's teeth as well as the supporting bushings. Kos-Mos: Your explanation makes more sense now. I should've realized what you were trying to explain with the cancellation of ROF with the higher torque gear set. Although, now, that gives me an idea - if the piston were to be modified as a short stroke piston, a full tooth piston can be used with the infinite torque up gear set (rather than a half-tooth piston) and the infinity/max torque up sector gear set can be modified in to a butterfly gear... hmmm..... If the gears still spin too fast, they can be slowed down by providing less voltage to the motor. I've heard of guns using 7.2v, haven't heard of 6.0v, but there is some room that can be played with... |
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November 25th, 2006, 19:11
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#39 |
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Delierious Designer of Dastardly Detonations
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: in the dark recesses of some metal chip filled machine shop
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It's not difficult to adjust battery voltage. Either remove cells or put high amp diodes in series with the pack (0.7v drop per diode).
Having more space for tooth engagement to make shimming easier comes at a tradoff. It means that you throw away engagement area (i.e. one gear could be wider) that could be used to reduce contact pressure and resultant wear. I guess it's ok at the bevel gear as it's a relative low torque end of the gear train. However, you do get some high contact velocity so reducing pressure still helps as sliding interfaces generally have pressure velocity (PV) limits.
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November 25th, 2006, 20:39
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#40 |
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I use nothing but large 7.2V batteries in my AEGs, always have. They provide a rate of fire more equivalent to the real thing and make your mags last longer. They're also far more readily available at R/C hobby shops and they tend to have a large selection of the best race-bred cells. They're obviously not going to be as efficient as higher voltage batteries, expending more mA per shot, but with the capacities available now that's hardly an issue.
I have an Intellect 4200, a Venom 3000, and the store I shop at recently got in some Venom 4600s. If you need more than that in even a couple days worth of gaming, I think you ought to take a long hard look at your trigger discipline. 
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November 26th, 2006, 01:07
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#41 | |
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You idea of modifying the gear set is a good... problably will work.
Quote:
It only take the full voltage of the pack and switch it very fast from on to off. This kind of circuit with a current rating around 250A continuous and 300A peak is about the size of a standard fusebox. Then you could use Li-Po 11.1v packs in your gun and set it to fire like a 7.2v or 8.4v. Since there is always a lot of loses due to temperature, resistance and wear, it is always good to keep power reduction to the max. Because if you drop voltage from 12v to 8v, the current needed to make the motor work properly is way too high and everything starts to build up heat. Last edited by Kos-Mos; November 26th, 2006 at 01:09.. |
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November 30th, 2006, 01:52
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#42 |
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Raising a 2 week old thread. Here's what I've got to so far :-
1) Phoenix Super High Cycle Gears - 12 teeth instead of standard 16 - matching Angel Piston has 12 teeth too - noise is terrible. Agreed with Illusion about this, but so far no durability issues - need a spring between M110->M120 to compensate 2) SystemA High Speed Flat - Standard 16 teeth - seems to be more durable than Helical - not as noisy as Phoenix but a little noiser than Helical - not tried a trigger hold down for 1000+ shots yet 3) [want to try] Custom SystemA All Helical High Speed - shaving off 2 teeth (therefore 14 teeth) - do the same for the piston - See if I can use an M100 spring and drop down to 0.9J (not a big issue for me to go down to that joule) I'm hoping that (3) would give the balance of high cycle, and low noise. Will let you know the results after the weekend. |
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December 4th, 2006, 01:55
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#43 |
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OK, the result for (3) is an ROF of 34bb/sec, approx 0.86J driven by LiPo 11.1/2150mAh. Think I'm gonna stick to this. Noise is lower than flat (definitely quieter than Phoenix), and so far no crash.
Thank you to all who helped! Very much appreciated with the kinda advice you've provided! It's been a learning experience! |
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