21 feet to save your life!!!

[Rickshaw]

If you're close enough to push the persons arm against their body, you're close enough to grab the persons wrist and punch them in the throat as well. I couldn't see someone inflicting much damage to a person while trying to keep his foe's arm pressed against his body, but I don't really have much experience in unarmed combat to begin with so I may be wrong.

[DrDoUm]

Originally Posted by Rickshaw

If you're close enough to push the persons arm against their body, you're close enough to grab the persons wrist and punch them in the throat as well. I couldn't see someone inflicting much damage to a person while trying to keep his foe's arm pressed against his body, but I don't really have much experience in unarmed combat to begin with so I may be wrong.

What you're saying is true... you do have the option to punch him in the throat or do whatever fits your needs on the moment...

While the principle is a bit hard to explain in a short text, the idea is to act fast and prevent the attacker from even taking the weapon out (if possible) or to keep it in a weak position if the weapon is already out.

1)While pushing you can use the weight of your body against the strenght of his single arm... sure, he could contre-attack but all you need is a few seconds to neutralize him, break out and run...

2)Holding a wrist with one hand is quite hard... the weak point is the space between the tip of your index and the tip of your thumb. The attacker can break out of your grasp forcing with the strenght of his whole arm against only the strength of your fingers

Sure this might sound hazardous, but remember this is a survival situation, something that you should not be exposed to that often... Again, this is a self-defense technique teached to unarmed civilians. I'm sure peace keepers are taught other technics since they can rely on weapons.

[Rickshaw]

Controlling the wrist is actually very simple, you just bend the whole hand inwards and you have complete control over the person, a quick tug or a twist can set them right off balance, plus their entire side is open to your attacks.

I get what you're saying though, but in a life or death situation your options should only be kill or control. Running from your attacker is the complete opposite of what you want to do when confronted. It exposes your back, leaves you defenseless, and if the attacker is at all faster or has more stamina then you you're totally screwed.

[battlerager]

Something a lot of people seem to over look when they talk about knife v. gun. The gun is still a weapon even if you don't/can't pull the trigger. A handgun can be used as a set of brass knuckles for instance, Or could be used to block the knife (Put a group of martial artist in a room with knives and training guns and watch what happens) and shoot in almost any direction.

And while it is a over simplification. There really is only one rule that makes a knife fight different.
Control the knife (or any weapon).

There is no superior weapon. Only a weapon that fits the situation better. A hammer drives a nail, but can still put a screw in wood. Just not the best way.

[Cortex]

Originally Posted by Viking

How would you know that?

I was in the Reserves for a year and a half and have several friends in the Regular force (from Infantry to Air Force Aerospace Engineering) as well as a couple friends in the Calgary Police.

Obviously a year and a half in the Reserves isn't a lot to base anything on, especially since we don't get the same amount of training on firearms as Infantry. I'm going back this year and will look into it more if you really want, but I can almost guarantee you that its not something that is taught to the majority of gun-wielding government employees.

[DrDoUm]

Originally Posted by Rickshaw

Controlling the wrist is actually very simple, you just bend the whole hand inwards and you have complete control over the person, a quick tug or a twist can set them right off balance, plus their entire side is open to your attacks.

With that description I picture what you mean. I have to agree this is also a plausible technic, depending on the situation (is the agressor a lot stronger than you, is he reaching for his back where the knife is hidden, etc.) One would want to practice various technics to have as many options as possible.

However, a technic such as shown in the OP's video at 1:45 which is a typical martial art technic needs a lot more training, reflexes and coordination than what I mentionned in my previous post.

Originally Posted by Rickshaw

I get what you're saying though, but in a life or death situation your options should only be kill or control.

There are various life or death situations, depending, among other things, on who you are. The OP's video concerns mostly peace keepers... Now the situation they are faced with differs from civilians since we assume their role is to control the aggressor, killing him as a last resort.

However, for civilians, many agressions resulting into death were not necessarily meant that way by the agressor. I don't have official statistics, but other kind of agressions such as rubbery, bar fights or sexual agressions can possibly escalade in violence to the point where the victim's life is in danger. By breaking out of such an agression before it gets to that point, the victim reduces its exposure to danger.

Now you will ask: What does it have to do with the self-defense drill I mentionned in a previous post? If you are able to neutralise the hand of the agressor before he takes out his weapon (no matter if you have identified if it's a weapon or not) then you are reducing your exposure to danger.

Originally Posted by Rickshaw

I get what you're saying though, but in a life or death situation your options should only be kill or control. Running from your attacker is the complete opposite of what you want to do when confronted. It exposes your back, leaves you defenseless, and if the attacker is at all faster or has more stamina then you you're totally screwed.

True, unless you neutralised the agressor before escaping. Self-defense training is meant to get you to the point where you can judge what's the best option you have, do you have a safe window of opportunity to escape? If not, what else can you do?

Self-defense drills are often based on the statistic that agressions typically last a few seconds, and agressors are most likely to abandon if the victim manage to escape. Making the fight last longer exposes the victim to more dangers and hopeless acts of violence... for example, let's say the victim manage to throw the agressor to the ground and disarm him and decide to control him to the ground until someone else calls the cops. Not a good idea, since you have no clue how desperate the agressor is and how he may react. Again, this is if your job is NOT to arrest the agressor, but there's a reason why peace keepers have weapons, radios and handcuffs.

EDIT: Now, there are various approach to self-defense, I just wanted to share that this kind of approach is taught in some self-defense schools. Altought I praticed martial arts for several years, I don't practice neither teach self-defense at the moment and some people might want to correct me on some point. I was surprised by some none orthodox technics when I was taught them a couple of years ago, but was mostly surprise by how effective they may be.

Originally Posted by Cortex

Obviously a year and a half in the Reserves isn't a lot to base anything on, especially since we don't get the same amount of training on firearms as Infantry. I'm going back this year and will look into it more if you really want, but I can almost guarantee you that its not something that is taught to the majority of gun-wielding government employees.

LOL and I can guarantee you at least one person in the discussion knows a fuckton more about the subject than you do

Anyone else who wants a reality check on knife fights...tell your girlfriend / wife / whoever to put a sharpie in their hand and tell them to use it like a knife; they try to "kill" you with it, you try to defend against it. Count up the number of marks on your arms, chest, shoulders, face and head....and let me know how that disarming tactic worked out for you. ....

[FoxhoundNB]

The rule may apply to handguns; but I think the most important aspect is the alertness of the individual.

If it was between a rifle and a knife though... the rifle is a better weapon. You'd be amazed what kind of stuff you can do with a rifle.

[Rickshaw]

I've only been to a couple classes run by an instructor who teaches private corporations, various militaries, law enforcement, and who studied in Israel with the IDF so the direction I'm coming from is thinking that the attacker with the knife is trying to kill you, not rob you, sexually assault you, or whatever. Thus the techniques would be different, plus the technique I described is mostly for if someone has already drawn their knife on you and is holding it at their side where you can simultaneously take control of the wrist and punch them in the throat, following it up with a myriad of techniques all with the goal to take out the attackers will to fight.

So DrDoUm we're discussing two different perspectives, therefore there's really no right or wrong, and I can understand where you're coming from with wanting to break the confrontation and escape. I just feel that someone under attack would be safer in neutralizing the attacker. For instance pinning him to the ground and holding his own knife to his throat until help arrives.

[DrDoUm]

Originally Posted by Rickshaw

So DrDoUm we're discussing two different perspectives, therefore there's really no right or wrong

Still an interesting discussion.

Sorry, but I must have missed the "two different perspectives" one can be considering while being approached by an individual armed with a knife. I mean, usually my Jedi powers let me instantly determine an individual's intent, but sometimes I have to rely on my fall-back magic 8-ball. One good shake, and it can tell me if this guy's gonna kill me or just rob me and then let me go, or maybe slit my throat just for shits and giggles.

My subscription to Popular Ninjitsu is also expired, so I'll leave the martial arts mastery to someone else. I don't like getting stabbed all that much, and even if I do manage to pull off some kind of Chuck Norris move, which is fucking unlikely, I'm probably gonna get skewered anyway.

[Rickshaw]

I guess you never watched the video in the first post.

Edit: Also if you believe that grabbing something with your hand is a fine motor skill, I'd like to see you try to tie your shoelaces.

Let me know how it works out for you.

[pancakedestroyer]

I've been involved in a couple knife calls and the first thing we were always told, expect to be cut. The second thing we were told, disengage if at all possible. All that shit they show you I videos goes right out the window. First time you deal with a situation like that you get tunnel vision and lose focus on whats happening around you. Saying you can grab the wrist and take hold of the persons hand and gain control of them that way...maybe in a classroom setting or in theory but hate to say, it just doesn't work like that. Rushing the guy, also stupid. You put yourself in his area.

The best defense to a guy pulling a knife is run. If he runs you let him. I hate hearing about people chasing a subject with an edged weapon only to get hurt because they didn't wait for backup or they thought they had super human abilities.

[Deadpool]

This should be use to train all officers who respond to knife calls.

Shocknife - YouTube