What is "Milsim" to you?

[scottyfox]

I actually quite enjoy guarding an objective for hours on end without TIC.
But then again, I enjoy pretending I'm a soldier/IO/Contractor unlike ^^^.

[Gptigers]

A greater technical representation. Use of accurate tactical terms (e.g. "Take out" is not a tactical term; seize, secure, isolate, destroy, block, deny, etc are tactical terms). From my perspective MILSIM is more than wearing the gear and going through extended duration operations. It's a mindset and the ability to duplicate (as best possible) the environment, language, and activities of real military operations.

The guys who want short duration events? Fine - treat it just like a direct action raid. Plan and rehearse the hell out of it (using technical terms, graphics, and methodologies). Guys who want longer duration? Fine - treat it like a company-sized extended operation to seize/hold multiple, complex objectives. Do all the pre-mission activities you do in real life. Just how reenactors pride themselves on period accuracy I believe MILSIM folks should pride themselves on technical (and tactical) accuracy both in word and deed.

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by scottyfox

I actually quite enjoy guarding an objective for hours on end without TIC.
But then again, I enjoy pretending I'm a soldier/IO/Contractor unlike ^^^.

I love doing things like that too, just not arbitrarily. If I'm guarding something for hours on end, or even all night, and I have, it's because it was game necessary due the situation, not because we're pretending. Give us the objectives and rules and we'll decide how to win.

Originally Posted by Gptigers

A greater technical representation. Use of accurate tactical terms (e.g. "Take out" is not a tactical term; seize, secure, isolate, destroy, block, deny, etc are tactical terms). From my perspective MILSIM is more than wearing the gear and going through extended duration operations. It's a mindset and the ability to duplicate (as best possible) the environment, language, and activities of real military operations.

The guys who want short duration events? Fine - treat it just like a direct action raid. Plan and rehearse the hell out of it (using technical terms, graphics, and methodologies). Guys who want longer duration? Fine - treat it like a company-sized extended operation to seize/hold multiple, complex objectives. Do all the pre-mission activities you do in real life. Just how reenactors pride themselves on period accuracy I believe MILSIM folks should pride themselves on technical (and tactical) accuracy both in word and deed.

This has long been the argument/debate on; exactly what counts as "milsim"? How much realism must you have for it to count? Whatever it is, the term has been tossed around more than Rob's mom.

[666]

Our group doesn't call it Milsim, we call it reenactment. Once you show up, change, setup - game is on. 3 hour patrols through swamps without seeing anybody, stuffing your boots with straw to dry them up afterwards, spending entire weekend without firing a shot, be it airsoft or blank fire, getting lost for hours during night patrols, crap floating around in your zelt after 24 hours of rain, getting up to a "stand to whistle" and running to you firing position every freaking two hours while you expected nice and quite night, fighting for one position for hours and getting things brought up to up from the rear. Pissing off your sleeping CO really early in the morning with loud noise to the point where he wakes up and sends everyone to reinforce/camouflage the damn trench which is already 5 feet deep People usually stop being part of the action under two conditions - 1. You are really fucked to the point where you cannot function properly for several hours. 2. You need to visit the hospital. Both of those things happened in the past. I guess this is Milsim.

[Metalsynth]

For me it has to be 2 fold

Player level : Proper training in all aspects that involve combat and communications.

Admin level : Proper mission scripting and simulated realistic/probable objectives/consequences a real militairy mission direct action would involve.

You could argue that milsim is possible in a skirmsh setting but that would be at the player level.

Most people seem to agree that more bling is milsim but I disagree, if you are not willing to approch the problem from a military mindset you are still not doing a milsim. You are just playing war with expensive toys.

Originally Posted by 666

Our group doesn't call it Milsim, we call it reenactment. Once you show up, change, setup - game is on. 3 hour patrols through swamps without seeing anybody, stuffing your boots with straw to dry them up afterwards, spending entire weekend without firing a shot, be it airsoft or blank fire, getting lost for hours during night patrols, crap floating around in your zelt after 24 hours of rain, getting up to a "stand to whistle" and running to you firing position every freaking two hours while you expected nice and quite night, fighting for one position for hours and getting things brought up to up from the rear. Pissing off your sleeping CO really early in the morning with loud noise to the point where he wakes up and sends everyone to reinforce/camouflage the damn trench which is already 5 feet deep People usually stop being part of the action under two conditions - 1. You are really fucked to the point where you cannot function properly for several hours. 2. You need to visit the hospital. Both of those things happened in the past. I guess this is Milsim.

People need to embrase the suck. Been a while since I saw a game like that here. Hard to get em to pass 6h now.

[Cliffradical]

The elephant in the room is that a lot of people just don't have the base of fitness for it.

[Metalsynth]

Originally Posted by Cliffradical

The elephant in the room is that a lot of people just don't have the base of fitness for it.

I disagree to a degree, some of the vietnam reenacters here are older and less in shape but because the game is paced better and they understand how to wait for it they can "milsim" better for longer periods of time.

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by Cliffradical

The elephant in the room is that a lot of people just don't have the base of fitness for it.

I totally agree and 100% disagree. I've seen super overweight (300 plus pounds) and out of shape guys power through 24 hours hardcore and guys who are fit and healthy go down and need hospitalization. So, what you say is true, but I believe people are more easily mentally defeated and are capable of battling through tough times once in awhile, but many are not, or are and don't prepare because they overestimate themselves. Know your limitations, prepare adequately and don't back down from a challenge. You can do it if you prepare.

You're going to be tired, exhausted, fatigued, sore, hurt, bruised, cramped, uncomfortable, dehydrated, overhydrated, hungry, starving, cold, wet, overheated, sun stroked, frustrated, angry, depressed, etc. worst of all, you may even get bored to tears, so buckle up buttercup!

[666]

Originally Posted by Cliffradical

The elephant in the room is that a lot of people just don't have the base of fitness for it.

It all depends on how organizers plan their events. There is always a way to come up with roles for people who don't have the stamina to be on their feet entire weekend, people who can't run and gun non stop. Everyone is different. Some people have hard time staying awake at night just because they are wired that way, some people can't stay up for more than 15-16 hours etc. but if things are organized in the right fashion, there will be something to do for everyone.

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by 666

It all depends on how organizers plan their events. There is always a way to come up with roles for people who don't have the stamina to be on their feet entire weekend, people who can't run and gun non stop. Everyone is different. Some people have hard time staying awake at night just because they are wired that way, some people can't stay up for more than 15-16 hours etc. but if things are organized in the right fashion, there will be something to do for everyone.

This is another tough one. Some players/organizers don't want a staggered event, they want a push through/anything can happen at any time, kind of event. If you leave the area or sleep at the wrong time the other team may capitalize, etc. It's the organizers responsibility to clearly post the expectations of the event and the players responsibility to only attend if they are prepared to battle through. I've been to too many events where swathes of the other team just up and quit leaving our opponents severely under manned and out gunned. What's that about? Why'd you come if you were just gonna bitch out?

I'll reiterate that preparedness is key. I don't think people prepare. Have a warm layer, good food, lots of water, a sleep system and fresh undies socks and boots on top of your other gear, and be ready to carry it. You can't huff a sleeping bag around with you, so have an adequate plan (ranger blanket), and don't try to just sit around in the rain for hours, then try to rest cold and wet. Pile on to that the fact that your team may be disorganized, frustrated and losing badly and you'll get a snowball effect. That's the reality. If you can't deal, don't go.

One decent option I've seen is full events with multiple drop ins. You can play the whole thing, but they'll have several 6-8 hour part time groups that come and go. So you can sign up for a morning or evening window, then you can leave while the others push on. That way you're only getting a 10-20 player swing, not half of one team walking out because little bitches.

[666]

Ricochet, I agree with every single one of your points. I'm sure event orgs will get some useful feedback posted in this thread and will again re-assess the situation.

P.S.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
If you leave the area or sleep at the wrong time the other team may capitalize, etc.
Damn, this so familiar "Where is evebody??? I don't know, probably went to sleep".

Than, 2 hours later enemy standing there, having smokes at our "main base".

[CR0M]

delta you were at 3 of my all time "milsim" games

jaguar kings (wolfpack)
shallow lake 2 (Ladytresses)
athena 2 (fuzzhead)

jaguar kings, had morse code over the radio, gps coordinates, chill time, drink time, food time, back to game time so much things over 24 hours I loved it.

Shallow lake 2, fuck sakes Im miserable I guess this is what real soldiers feel like lol, oh shit I have tick bites i hope i dont have lime disease , or get eating by a bear or a black widow bite lol

athena 2, had so much going on, constant objectives, tons of game control staff...

---------

basically keep me busy for aslong as you can =milsim, not skirmish me as long as you can, just keep me busy (fighting, not fighting, finding things, helping, rescuing) and I will enjoy it...

but I do have to side with Hectic big time on the GEN 3.... you saved up a whole year and bought some GEN 3, great, your finally a ninja in airsoft, *hand clap* does it make you feel good when half the guys toss in the towel? or maybe putting yourself at a EQUAL disadvantages actually makes the game fun? Im not against them, but when you can see guys walking in the dark knowing they cant see shit, how are you having fun? its like signing up for a game and seeing all VETS on one side, and all NOOBS on the other, how do you expect to have fun at the game when its clearly uneven? was it worth it?

anyways... keep me busy, objectives, ... day objectives, night objectives, fighting, not fighting, searching, building, the other constant theme is limited ammo... unlimited ammo makes it feel like a skirm and fuck those complainers, they arent for milsims... the best feeling in a milsim is "should I try to shoot that guy or conserve ammo" "I need 2 guys to follow me into x... I dont know if I have enough shots" "oh fuck im out of ammo what do we do now were surrounded?" limited ammo and milsims go hand in hand... not that "300" BB limit go back to spawn and reload 300 again... Im talking that 50 BB??? the whole GAME??? "maybe" type ammo limits...

keep the guys on the field, away from their cars, cars are safety blankets, Ive resorted to them myself but each game I like to think I come better prepared each milsim... those 3 games I mentioned have that common thread, every player was still in the game up until the game ended,

[mcguyver]

Lots of butthurt in this thread.

Mislim is what you make it. The guys who can't or won't buy the toys need to step back from shitting on those that do. You are the reason why milsim has fallen into the dustbin of airsoft history, being supplanted by the over-entitled whiners bitching about "fairness" like it's a goddamned human right. Sorry, buttercups, life ain't fair, and neither is conflict, whether in real life or simulated on a nice and safe airsoft field. What we all want is honest play, do not confuse this with fairness.

We have literally abandoned retarded game ideas by admins (soccer ball at RAAT, anyone), wrote our own game on the fly and salvaged a boring skirmish game.

Prepare yourself mentally, equip yourself properly, treat yourself correct physically and do your job out there, regardless what it is.

Whiners have no place in milsim, stick to paintball.

To me, milsim is whatever I make out of any game. I don't care about backstory, like what faction of the Buttfuckerstan Militia stole nukes from the Greater Vaginaville armoury. Just give me an objective, point me in the right direction and let me do my job. Or not, and I will probably do it anyways.

[CR0M]

It's not about the toys and fairness, it's about enjoyment. If you can have fun dominanting a basketball game against a group of midgets that's great. I can't. Lol I don't see how that's hard to understand? Lol...

The player pool is only so big. You might have %20 gunho players, %30 mostly gunho, and the other %50 of the guys are here to have fun only. I don't blame those guys for leaving when it stops being fun to them.

The tough games where expectations are clearly laid out, sure, suck it up, I know what I signed up for.

But other games where anybody can sign up, the expectations sound like a skirm, and the game is loosey goosey, I can see why guys leave

[marac]

Airsoft is a hobby, an entertainment, and airsoft players are paying customers. As such, a certain level of fairness is expected. Comparing airsoft to real life or real combat is ridiculous. A host is an entertainment provider and a player's level of satisfaction should be one of his main concerns. If the player is happy with the game, regardless of the outcome, he will continue to attend. That being said, it is the player's duty to understand the host's expectations. Many people leave early during 18hr+ events. Those that leave due to fatigue or discomfort due to weather are guilty for the outcome themselves, mainly because of lack of preparation or experience. Fixing that problem is up to that individual player. However, there are those who choose to leave strictly because of their issues with the game. Fixing this issue may lay on the host himself.

To touch on the NVGs, they are a part of real military. Those seeking an event that provides an experience closer to the real military shoud expect and accept the use of NVGs. The player's satisfaction, however, still remains a priority. Perhaps the host could demand NVG/thermal users to identify themselves during registration and ensure fair use for both sides? It becomes tricky when only one group has them and wants to play on the same team, though.

Speaking of milsim, seems like just about any event other than a typical 9-4 skirmish game is now a milsim. There are a few issues I have with some games.

I'll start with the story itself. Somehow, nukes, chemical weapons, spies and double agents, combined with emerging factions battling governent forces all thrown into one game seems to be "as close to real combat as you can get" for those seeking feeling like a soldier for a day. Really? The background story doesn't have much impact on the gameplay, I get that. But if you advertise milsim as a game that simulates military, come up with likely scenarios someone serving in the military would face. For starters, treat a 24 hr battle as just that...nothing more. Attempting to throw in all these other world saving activities oversaturates the game in my opinion, and takes away from the realism. Simplicity goes long ways. Seizing a vital bridge or locating and eliminating an HVT visiting a village could be all the game is about.

Use of terrain is vital. Limited use of ammo is a must, I think everyone agrees on that. Have several approved HLS/ground routes as means of replenishing your ammo. It gives commanders secondary objectives they can engage, seize and hold at their own discretion in order to ensure primary objective being met.

Medic rules can be an issue sometimes. I can't stand seeing a guy get hit, only to have medic bandage him and he's suddenly cured and good to go. Not only does that NEVER happen in reality (realism at its finest), but it also elmininates the impact of a perfectly good hit. A casualty must be treated as casualty...period! Yes, have a bleedout time. Have a medic stop the bleeding by applying bandaid to the "wound" - that doesn't mean tapping a guy and you're good to go. That gives the casualty more time but he still needs to be evac'd out of there. Having a guy walk him back to the camp to respawn can to a degree simulate taking away fighting force with treating and evacuating the wounded. It puts commanders in situation where they have to decide when to push and when to focus on the casualties. Failing to keep a guy alive (bleedout) should have consequences. In airsoft, it's time off - that's a significant time off. Having troops killed should put a strain on the command at all levels. Bottom line....there is no way a guy should be able to continue playing from the spot he was hit.

Aaaand it's dinner time.