See through guns and the death of "airsoft"

[Copcarman]

Well, seeing as how i'm technically still a "n00b", here goes;

My first game was an intense experience, anything more than paintball has ever produced(and a lot cleaner, too), and everyone there was quite awesome when they found out I was a new guy. Helping me out, quoting the rules, etc. We did have one or two players who stormed off(but it wasn't cause of me), but the rest who stayed were totally awesome. I was using my buddy's crappy TM M4(shooting 220, so it might as well have been a springer), and got laughed at a bit. But when the big guns broke(some did), I offered to lend them mine, and they used it .

I am in no way kitted out bigtime, but I have spent a good deal of money so far on this hobby, and more will be spent. But it's money i'm going to enjoy spending, because this is something I'm going to enjoy doing.

As for clearsoft; If you want to go to games with it, I say do it! Again, who cares if they laugh at you? When their guns break, and you would rather use your pistol, who do you think is the first person going to offer them their rifle? You. And who do you think will gain their respect? You. Also, who cares what kind of gun you have, as long as you're having fun doing this? I was planning on getting a Crossman shotty soon, i'm told it shoots quite hard for a gun under 60$.

[Wilson]

Keep fighting. Never, ever give up. Do not give ground on this issue, guys.

People use cheap shit because it's available to them. Usually they aren't aware that higher quality airsoft guns even exist - spread the word. The fear of going public on the sport of airsoft is partly what is causing this issue.

[Mr.Shiney]

Again, I do understand that we would prefer that people show up properly kitted out. My first AEG was all black, and I intentionally did not by clearsoft, just to get into the sport. I wanted what I wanted, and got exactly the AEG I wanted. This is my first season in Airsoft, but I have years of Paintball and Military Experience.

Yes, lower priced Can/Clear Soft will allow those who may not have been able to afford "Real" Airsoft gear.

However in some cases, it will provide an excellent starting point, for those committed players.

I am still in the process of collecting all my kit. Yes it is expensive and yes it does take time. And I will not by second rate gear. Buy cheap, buy twice and/or often.

As long as the person showing up has a drive to learn the correct rules and practices. That they take the time to show that they care about the sport and the follow the Normal Safe Handling Procedures. And that they are willing to purchase the gear needed. Let them play.

If they are willing to kit themselves over time, make a commitment to learn and develop their skills, and willing to admit and learn from mistakes.
Let them play.

If they over time prove themselves to be a douche - well BAN them.
If they cannot or will not operate in a safe manner - well BAN them.
If they are just to immature to be playing out there - well BAN them.
If they cannot/will not kit themselves out for your events - well BAN them

[Ace12GA]

Without reading this whole thread, only the first couple of pages, and the last couple of posts, I have a comment as an old fart. I've been into airsoft for over a decade, but I haven't played in 4 years or more, largely because of the lack of local interest where I live. I've owned and sold dozens of GBB's and TM AEG's over the last 10 years. At this point I'm really a collector. When I want to enjoy a scenario style game I play paintball now; I know, terrible me. The preamble is just to give you an idea of where I'm coming from.

Paintball went through something just like this in the mid 90's when Brass Eagle started putting out cheap plastic markers. Suddenly you had kids showing up at the local field with a $100 stingray thinking they could go up against seasoned players with automags and autocockers. There was a lot of bad feelings around this time.
The younger crowd with the cheap markers looked at the older crowd with the expensive markers as elitist, stuck up, snobbish, etc.. From the opposite point of view, the seasoned players with decent gear looked at the kids with plastic markers and were disgusted and embarrassed to play against such players. Other companies brought crap into the budget market, some companies brought good equipment into that same market, and paintball almost died in the late 90's, early 00's.
Now its stabilized, with players still buying crap, but at least more accepted, because that crap is at least field-able compared to the crap of old. There is still a divide, there is still lots of bad feelings exchanged, but its a lot better than it was. I regularly play with a variety of people ranging from 14 to 65, and I have found the same thing over and over. Its not the gear, its the person; its how the rules are explained. How you tell them what is expected of them. I have kicked more than one person out of my games in the last few years for not following rules, for not being respectful of other players, for a variety of safety issues (one guy shot himself in the foot 3 times in one day while in the safe zone.) It happens, but more often than not we have a good day, and no one bitches about the other guys gear.

I bring this up, because it sure seems like the same thing that is happening with airsoft now. Of course there are more reasons for the current issues; the law being a big one. I look at clearsoft and really don't like it, and I look at cansoft, and don't mind it. I think people hosting games need to be clear (no pun intended) that clearsoft is not acceptable as serious gear. Its a toy at best. Educate the players, let them see why saving a few hundred dollars up front will just cost them more down the road. But hey, let them play with that crossman stinger and get beaten up by the other players. Don't lay a judgement against a player because of his/her age. Take your time and help new players out, even if they have that Kraken instead of a $1000 full metal monster. You know what, a lot of airsofter's are snobbish and elitist, they seem to forget this is about having fun while playing a game. Yes, its a game. I know a lot of the concern about younger players stems from irresponsible use of airsoft/clearsoft/cansoft, but that's as much the communities problem for not helping educate that person. Paintball suffers the same problem.

I don't see this as the death of airsoft, but as a transition much like what paintball went through. Its going to change, that's for sure, but is that really such a bad thing? The elite serious players are going to see their games get smaller and smaller, until they rejoin the mainstream community and bitch about how the old days were better, but hey at least they get out to play still.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Ace12GA

. Yes, its a game. I know a lot of the concern about younger players stems from irresponsible use of airsoft/clearsoft/cansoft, but that's as much the communities problem for not helping educate that person. Paintball suffers the same problem.

I don't see this as the death of airsoft, but as a transition much like what paintball went through. Its going to change, that's for sure, but is that really such a bad thing? The elite serious players are going to see their games get smaller and smaller, until they rejoin the mainstream community and bitch about how the old days were better, but hey at least they get out to play still.

Thanks , good post and speaks to the issue.. which is not about the gear or the guns .. but about the players.

The point of this thread was to foster a discussion about some of the issues facing participants today.

From the Field owner game host position.. more players and and inexpensive cost to start bar is a good thing .. more players = more money = better attended games = more money

From the standpoint of the players... due to the lower cost to entry.. many of the new players have less commitment to the community .. or its traditions and standards and regulations.. the demographic of the player population shifts to be Novice heavy ... more players are new and there is more turn over in this population as guns are cheap enough and available enough that people will try out the activity with little desire to really get into it. More seasonsed players find it frustrating to go to games and find 1/3 to 1/2 of players with less than a season experience. Lots are generous with their time.. and will help new players out... but in some cases the volume of new players outstrips the ability of vets to provide that guidance.

the perception becomes.. There are too many NOOBs ... let then go and play by tlhemselves .... and the vets withdraw to enclaves ... new people get selected carefully to make the transition into the old guard.. the best run and organized games go private or semi private.

and the new players are left with little or no guidance... resulting in slipping safety.. poor adhernace to standards .. and an "anything goes" environment.

The point of this thread was to foster a discussion.. and guage the position of the vets and the new player community..

and to make some suggestions as to how this can be addressed.

I know that indoctrination courses work... I've done them for 4 years at TTAC3 and produced a lot of good players out of that environment.

I also know that informal mentoring works.. I've seen lots of great players come out of that process.

But what do we do if there are so many new players that informal mentoring breaks down?

Running New players days is a great idea.. and I see lots of action on that part .. it's a step in the right direction.

What I propose is a "national standard" for the introductory information that new players are required to get before they can participate in open public games. I also propose that new players be REQUIRED to participate in a new player indoctrination event before they can sign up for any public game.

Local field owners/ Hosts would be encouraged to hold regular New player indoctrinations to ensure that the new players in their area are prepared to participate.

This would be a system like the current AV status .. once you have completed the indoctrination course you would be granted access to the games posted threads .. otherwise new players could only access the "intro course threads in their area.

I know that I would have NO Issue with running monthy intro courses in Toronto.

And I suspect that other owners/ hosts would feel the same.

Such a procedure would reduce the number of ill prepared and potentially unsafe players.. it would also flatten out the learning curve for new playes and possibly reduce the intimidation factor of getting involved.

This is a procees already in place in other AS communities .. that works well
I don't see why we can't do it here.

[pusangani]

I vote yes to required indoctrination.

[ShelledPants]

Originally Posted by pusangani

I vote yes to required indoctrination.

I agree.

[Daiviet]

I also vote yes to a required indoctrination.

[Rock 'N' Roll Outlaw]

Tack another one up for required indoctrination.

[HGI]

Required Indoctrination to skirmish Bahahahaha, go join the military if you guys want the real thing.

Maybe a BootCamp training thing requirement for attending a milsim like there already is but a Required Indoctrination to just play a skirmish! Highly dout it cause all of that can be explained in a 15min tailgate meeting at the start of the day if handled in a proper manner. Sounds like a field owner's dream excuse to make more money charging everyone a extra $50 and a day in a classroom before they can even play their 1st game, who know's if they'll even like the sport or not.

A 1st timer day is most that would happen, or require new people to show up 2 hours before game time giving you time to handle them 1 on 1 in person and go over everything.

[pusangani]

Originally Posted by HGI

Required Indoctrination to skirmish Bahahahaha, go join the military if you guys want the real thing.

Maybe a BootCamp training thing requirement for attending a milsim like there already is but a Required Indoctrination to just play a skirmish! Highly dout it cause all of that can be explained in a 15min tailgate meeting at the start of the day if handled in a proper manner. Sounds like a field owner's dream excuse to make more money charging everyone a extra $50 and a day in a classroom before they can even play their 1st game, who know's if they'll even like the sport or not.

A 1st timer day is most that would happen, or require new people to show up 2 hours before game time giving you time to handle them 1 on 1 in person and go over everything.

so that's a nay vote then? no one asked for your opinion, just say yes or no.

[Amos]

The CQB Buisness around here takes all the new players and makes them watch a 15 minute training video on the do's and don'ts

Perhaps more places should adopt this method

[ex]

Originally Posted by Amos

The CQB Buisness around here takes all the new players and makes them watch a 15 minute training video on the do's and don'ts

Perhaps more places should adopt this method

Is this Video Publicly available/for sale. I would love to have something like this at our fields disposal.

[HGI]

This thread was never a vote pus.. If you really wanted this system put in place that means everyone including you would have to Pay the, who knows how much the field owner would charge, and Attend a Required Indoctrination in the classroom before you could go to any games regardless when you started playing airsoft.

I've heard of the video a while back, it should be uploaded and available for download if not already.

[SockMonkey]

+1 old crabby fart!

Well the one thing you can always count on in an anonymous setting is the keyboard tough guy!

I have just tried to come back into airsoft after a 4 year break due to illness and life in general and it was such a shock the state that it has degenerated to. In my area most of the "vet" players moved on and only a handful of old hats were there to try and herd the cats as I like to say. Most of the new players wont use anything but highcaps and bitch and moan in a milsim when ammo limits are imposed.

I dont think it has to do with the guns and kit as the lack of direction and mentoring as has been pointed out.

I showed up to my first 2 game wearing a paintball jersey, though in my defense it was some what subdued green and black jeans. I also went to EVERY boot camp (training) offered by my club (BCAC) for the first year rain or shine -20 dgrees when I found out for the first time that cold was bad and about totaled my TM M4 (mechbox and upper).

I try and mentor new players and make sure they are not left out based on kit and gun, because we all have to start some where and as long as they make the effort so will I. That being said as I have found out recently you cant help people who dont want to help themselves.

Sock