Fight club custom

[captainafternoon]

thanks

I'm using a systema pinion for now, RED thread lock this time, and lots.

Good pointers from c3sk and macguyver. Will need to clean out the gearbox and re lubricate and i'm all good.

[mcguyver]

Well, today was the day that my FCC 416 showed up, as well as a kit and a bunch of parts to complete an FCC lower with a real Aero Precision monolithic upper.

All I can say is what a load of crap.

My complete 416 has the poorest fit and finish I have seen in a gun more expensive than about $499. It was missing one of the faux trigger pins, it was never glued in place, no glue residue. The piston rod wobbled so much I had to strip the rail off and deal with it, it was incredible. Of course, I received the torque version, so it is like the Supermax from Systema with a large sun gear to reduce the cycle rate to drive the M160. My own damn fault, but at least I will take the opportunity to install a sun gear I have to make the gun usable. None of my other cylinders will work unless I do. PMags don't fit, but they don't on the real 416 neither.

The MOE grip comes with the ridiculous end cap that has 20% of it open, hey, why not get some water, debris or other crap in the motor. This is a dead easy fix at manufacturing, an oversight like this should not happen, and certainly not on a $3000 gun. Now, I get to cut another MIAD to correct this oversight.

The buffer tube is not mislpec, no surprise, my other isn't neither.

The dust cover is a real one. Nice, however, it can only be open, it can never close unless you grind off the lock. Stupid idea, it allows water and debris to enter your mag and gearbox. One more thing to fix, that should never have happened.

The screws on the sights stick out nearly 1/4". They will have to be cut off, and the end painted.

The takedown pin is aluminum (are your F#!*ing kidding me), and it wobbles something fierce. This usually means that the detent will pop out one day and the pin will fall out.

If this were a $500 WE 416, I would expect a few oversights and some fit and finish issues. On a $3000 FCC, it is utterly inexcusable. I have built in excess of 20 Systema kits and another 20-30 guns and not once have I seen this with Systema, not once. And all the parts are dimensionally accurate with their neighbours, I can take a barrel from a Gen 1 systema and install in in a 2012.

Now, the 416 kit. It is impossible to build at this time until I manufacture new screws to secure the gearbox into the lower and grind down the bolt stop. Apparanetly, FCC decided to drill and tap the holes, but they are not 3MM like Systema or their Noveske lower, nor are they 4MM. They were not 6-32 neither. So no common screw would fit. I was forced to tap it for 6-32, but now the head is too large for the countersunk mount and the bolt stop can not be installed.

Now, I received a bunch of parts to complete my other project. In their infinite wisdom, FCC decided to build their barrels with the chamber end much to large to be installed in any gun other than their own. They do not fit Systema nor real uppers, whereas Systema is a perfect fit. It took removal of their cheap roll pin, which crumbled when I tried to pull it with pliers, in order to severely grind the outer barrel to fit a real upper. The roll pin was much too large to have fit the position indent on the upper, so a 4mm set screw had to be tapped in and machined to fit.

The wire pigtail for their selector board had the purple and black wires twisted prior to soldering onto the board and presented great difficulty in installing the gearbox into the lower receiver.

What I have seen thus far for the 416 has been abyssmal in the fit and finish department, and the performance would have to blow me away to salvage my relationship with this gun. But I have seen alot of PTWs, and at best its performance will be as good as a factory gun, and it will require my TLC and upgrades to get it to my standards.

Overall, I would rate this gun at a 3/10, and only because I have the skills and resources to correct FCCs mistakes and oversights. I rate it this low because for a $3000 gun, it has to be flawless, and not built as it was.

It seems that the best in performance and reliability is buy a Systema, get a rewound motor from Tackleberry and get a CNCd lower. The Noveske I have from FCC was well done, but again so were the Prime ones I have had in the past.

This will be my last FCC gun.

[wildcard]

Brad, did you get the full complete gun? or kit and where did you get it? the reason why I asked is what you post here is completely different from what a bunch of other TW owners my self included have experienced, I have both speed and torque and I have no issues with using other systema cylinders or mags, the only one I have issues with fitting are the PTS mags on my 416. I have built 3 416 kits so far and aside from 1 with a mismatch body pins that was shipped with two front pins there have been Zero issues. My finish on the gun both kits and complete gun is flawless in fact I have 1 416 out on loan right now while my buddy wait for his rifle to arrive. There are fake 416 kits out there like the so called systema 416 that some retailers to have claimed as authentic factory build Systema but was made with WE upper and systema lower instead, just want to make sure you didn't get the fake ones like a buddy of mine did. In regards to the buffer tube I have a real non pts magpul CTR Stock off my RS VLTOR that fits with no issue and in regards to outer/inner barrel again it's strange that you are having issues with it, I had mine installed on my former CQBR Max with a RS VLTOR and a secondary Prime upper with no issue. FYI The kits and complete gun comes without sights is your sights a seperate parts that was ordered?

[Nova316]

Whoa, first bad review I've read from the others saying FCC 416D are good. The FCC HK416D body I found to be quite good compared to the other ones I've seen. The Moe grip does have the end cap and I am sure you could message FCC and replace it with an Tango down grip as they have great customer service. I've assembled and looked at quite a few of these HK416 and didn't see much wobble in them, so having wobble is not common at all. Also quite strange that you'd be expercing so many problem.

I've seen quite a huge change switch from the PTW/Tack motor to the FCC motor, and a bit more when I switched over to the FCC gearbox.

For there outer barrel, I was able to install this into PTW bodies, I've done a few. Never tried Real Steel upper tho so I cannot comment on that.

When you get a new sun gear make sure you get a new bevel gear as well, since the ratios are different they are different size. The pigtail took a while to get use to when installing into the body but its suppose to help the wire bend into the optics board without getting pinched.

Sucks you are having such a negative experience with FCC products as I've used quite a few from parts from FCC and haven't faced what you have.

[Javidan]

Me and My friends have gotten 3 416D from FCC and I haven't had any of the issues that you've had dude. I think the Finish is actually pretty awesome and ive gamed it a good amount and my friends as well and we havnt had any issues with the finish being bad. Like Nova316 said, this is honesty the first post ive seen saying a bad review about the 416D

[swatt13]

The 416 kit brad is talking about is the one I ordered. I was looking forward to having a unique tw. I was at brads last night to assist and was completly and utterly dissapointed.

We got my kit and brads factory built 416 from a reputable systema and FCC retailer however I don't think it's courteous to name them as it may negatively affect their sales. These flaws are not the retailers fault, simply the manufacturers.

As I watched brad work and grind on the pieces he had bought for his 7lbs project I wax thinking "isn't this the egsactly reason I got out of aeg and went to ptw, so I don't have to fiddle modify and Jerry rig a gun together? So why are we doing it now with a modular build tw?" I was extremely dissapointed that it seemed the parts were not made with the same tolerances and engineering you would see on a systema. With a systema any part gen1-gen4 is generably reusable/ interchangeable. More over, any real steel part you like will generally install as is or with minor tweeking. To me it seemed either FCC r&d is not as comprehensive or they are deliberately engineering their products so that they are proprietary.

My initial inspection of the fb 416 was unimpressed. The finish of the body seemed lees than impressive. When you open the box of a ptw you go "wow" the finish is top notch it looks and pretty much glows. You wonder if its real or Airsoft. This 416 I opened it and wondered the exact same thing, "is it real or fake?" But in the sense of is it a real tw or is it a Walmart special. Honestly the we 416 on the wall at splatter paintball in gp looks as good if not slightly better visually and that's a $400 gun. And further more, when you picked the gun up the piston clunked back and forth in the gun, the moe grip doesn't sit flush against the reciever. On that note, why is there an moe grip on there? Where's the 416 grip? Why was there a crane stock that looked like it belongs on a dboys m4 on there? Where's the 416 club foot or le style stock? I didn't say it to brad but I would have been furious if I had spent $3k on this gun. I honestly do not see the point of the purchase. I would rather but a systema and buy all magpul furniture a box of mags and possibly a Daniel defense or Troy rail for the same money or slightly less. Now that bring said maybe it will perform great, but how much better than a mcguyvered or tacked ptw can it perform to make up for all the shortcomings?

Thankfully I didn't jump on the 416 let alone the fcc band wagon and I bought the kit against my better judgment ant pretty much against my choice. However the kit left a lot to be desired as well. If anyone remembers the old ptw kits where you had to literally assemble every component, this is the same. From The furniture to the guide and retention receivers on the rail which the retention bolt go through you have to install the Roll pins in the rail that the receivers mount on and if you don't do it right, you can't slide the rail past the gas block. Thankfully we had a spare ptw barrel shim to use on my assembly as FCC couldn't be bothered to send a few in the kit and we needed one to get the barrel nut spaced right to allow the rail retention bolt to be utilized.
The sights, as brad mentioned, the bolt socks out at least 1/4", ya sure if these were dboys sights I'd understand but these are the famed fcc's sights.
Why did I get a ccw thread converter? Why didn't I get a cw one as well?

My lower....
Well as brad said while installing the mechbox the front mechbox retention screw is significantly larger that the rear. Like really!? Are you fucking serious? How the fuck does that happen? Aren't they drilled via a machine and a jig? I could understand maybe done 8 year old factory worker doesn't want to loose their .50$ a day job and maybe used the wrong bit or stripped it while tapping the threads, but no. It's bigger and cleanly tapped. Well maybe theyre proprietary? well wouldnt you think they would thtow the proprietary hardware in as well? It's probably in the same bag as the barrel shims. Go fuck yourself FCC.
Another thing I noticed, most everyone has dealt with a broken lower reciever on their ptw, so why is it FCC would feel the need to drill a small hole on each dude of the back end of the lower reciever- right where the lower breaks on a systema- weakening the integrity of that particular area. Why? Is it to allow adapter airflow? Allow rain, or must in there to cool down my mechbox, clean my gears and clean my optical sensors? Can't be the last one, that is clearly why they sent me a dust cover that I can't close so you can look inside past and below the hop chamber to see your mag. Thankfully rain or must can get in to keep my optics and switch clean and lubed. I think FCC forgot the point of this piece. Or no body told them its called a "dust cover" not a "trap door" for a reason.

All in all, I don't understand why
A) anyone would but a $3000 416 when you can buy a systema and add the items you like. Or even buy a systema and the FCC kit for slightly cheaper.
B) for $1000 why buy the kit? With that ammount of money you could do any number of unique options to you tw platform. From a monolithic upper, to full magpul, to anything else.

Essentially these are for fanboys and wagon jumpers. This isn't a quality item this is a cash grab item poorly made, poorly engineered and poorly finished. I can't see myself selling my ptw over this 416 and unless I somehow get struck by cuspids arrow I don't see myself running this unit on a regular basis or unless I decide to become a reenactor and want to model my team after zero dark thirty.

[c3sk]

Since I made the switch over to FCC, I have openly posted up my problems with the products complete with photos here on ASC. That being said, considering what I have paid in parts/rifles I have also exercised my warranty with FCC and have had outstanding success with that avenue. Not to beat an already dead horse, but as PTW owners/users we already know that if something fails on our Systema PTW, good luck talking to Systema about it.. time to go buy a new one. (Evolution Motors anyone?)

Everyone knows I'm gear whore, and that I demand a certain level of retarded quality from the items I purchase. I can say that I have had none of the fitment issues, or quality discrepancies you have encountered, with the exception of the faux body cosmetic body pins. Luckily I had some adhesive kicking around.

My recommendation:
Since it's all covered under manufacturers warranty and quite possibly a store warranty, exercise your right to a non defective product. Take photos, contact FCC, and ship it back.

[swatt13]

Ya I guess I should clarify that. I don't hate FCC, your entirly right c3. FCC has immeasurable warranty compared to systema. Anything on your systema goes wronge and its a trip to dtt, mcguyver or tackleberry. FCC is easy to get ahold of no qualms replacing defective parts as I've seen with follow members.
They have gorgeous items like their noveske lower, the 7" barrel brad got the list goes on. FCC is great, these products not so much.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by swatt13

Ya I guess I should clarify that. I don't hate FCC, your entirly right c3. FCC has immeasurable warranty compared to systema. Anything on your systema goes wronge and its a trip to dtt, mcguyver or tackleberry. FCC is easy to get ahold of no qualms replacing defective parts as I've seen with follow members.
They have gorgeous items like their noveske lower, the 7" barrel brad got the list goes on. FCC is great, these products not so much.

That is so weird Swatt My 416 is a complete build and Spartan177 416 is a kit and from the hi res pics he posted and some of mine thats been floating around it's byfar the best ones I've played around with without the issues you an dBrad are experiencing, I'm not a machinist so I have no qualification as to say if their CNC body is of great quality but my factory build CNC 416 is precise with no blemish, misallignment or any other issues, shit I even lost it for 10 minutes submerged in deep wet snow only three days after I got it. I was expecting a quick shipping to DTT for warranty repair on mine and all I did after i found it was shook off the excess snow and played on (to my surprise) I'm curious with the issue because a buddy of mine bought a Systema 416 from a certain retailer out your end because he could'nt wait for the FCC from DTT and only to discover that it's a WE/Systema/Iron airsoft hybrid and not a authentic Systema as the retailer claimed.

[c3sk]

If you do contact them, and I sincerely hope you do considering the amount of money that was dropped... please post your results/updates here. I am sure I am not the only one anxious about seeing the resolution regarding the product you received.

We're currently seeing pinion gear's failing, but are facilitating warranty replacement and repairs on behalf of FCC so that people don't need to wait weeks for their replacement parts. However again the communication with FCC has been outstanding, and everything is being covered.

[mcguyver]

Mine came from Chris at DTT, along wth all the parts and the kit.

I had a thought this afternoon. I am wondering, since these guns sat at Customs for several months, if the CBSA/RCMP did an inspection on it. The rail retainer pin uses a a flat "+" shaped driver, and I notice mine had been installed with a flatblade as it had marks from where the screwdriver cammed out. I had to use one to remove it, and that os what I noticed. If the Firearms tech disassembled the gun, it mit explain a couple things. But that doesn't explain the kit issues, nor things like the missing faux pin, or the grip end, which has been a noted issue since last summer.

Regardless, this an issue I will have to fix, as sending a gun out to Chris to fix or back to FCC is not necessary when I can do the work myself. My biggest bitch is that I should not have to.

Now, temper this with the fact that even with a Systema you have the motor to deal with, but this has been known for years, it is no surprise to anyone. And my Systema cost me 60% of the 416's price.

I will be speaking to Chris about it.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

Mine came from Chris at DTT, along wth all the parts and the kit.

I had a thought this afternoon. I am wondering, since these guns sat at Customs for several months, if the CBSA/RCMP did an inspection on it. The rail retainer pin uses a a flat "+" shaped driver, and I notice mine had been installed with a flatblade as it had marks from where the screwdriver cammed out. I had to use one to remove it, and that os what I noticed. If the Firearms tech disassembled the gun, it mit explain a couple things. But that doesn't explain the kit issues, nor things like the missing faux pin, or the grip end, which has been a noted issue since last summer.

Regardless, this an issue I will have to fix, as sending a gun out to Chris to fix or back to FCC is not necessary when I can do the work myself. My biggest bitch is that I should not have to.

Now, temper this with the fact that even with a Systema you have the motor to deal with, but this has been known for years, it is no surprise to anyone. And my Systema cost me 60% of the 416's price.

I will be speaking to Chris about it.

Well that depends how long it has been sitting at customs the last time customs held some airsoft rifles of mine when they released it they broke the metal body as if they were trying to dismantle the upper and lower but instead of sliding it out they pop it like a normal AR and the body was scratch to shit, looked like as if they were using a very strong magnet to test the body to see if it is a RS lower. In any case you should have taken some pictures and contact FCC before you mod it, they have a 3 month end user warranty on their full factory build guns and if there were anything missing in their kits I'm sure they would like to know about it as it could be just CBSA tinkering with it and what is with the sights you mentioned? The full gun and kits don't come with HK sights.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by wildcard

Well that depends how long it has been sitting at customs the last time customs held some airsoft rifles of mine when they released it they broke the metal body as if they were trying to dismantle the upper and lower but instead of sliding it out they pop it like a normal AR and the body was scratch to shit, looked like as if they were using a very strong magnet to test the body to see if it is a RS lower. In any case you should have taken some pictures and contact FCC before you mod it, they have a 3 month end user warranty on their full factory build guns and if there were anything missing in their kits I'm sure they would like to know about it as it could be just CBSA tinkering with it

This gun is unmodified, but I did fix the loose piston rod. It hasn't even been cycled yet

Mods for the other gun have been extensive however, but it is a custom one of a kind piece.

[kolumbo69]

CBSA should have nothing to do with how a product gets threw for a reputable dealer, furthermore a $3000 product I hope was inspected before it left the retailers shop...

McGuyver: I really don't understand the point of holding on to it if its truly that bad, all your going to do is continue to hate yourself for excepting a 3000 dollar piece of garbage 416 or not

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by kolumbo69

CBSA should have nothing to do with how a product gets threw for a reputable dealer, furthermore a $3000 product I hope was inspected before it left the retailers shop...

McGuyver: I really don't understand the point of holding on to it if its truly that bad, all your going to do is continue to hate yourself for excepting a 3000 dollar piece of garbage 416 or not

I could never sell it someone. I would have to bring it up to my standards first. Besides, after the bitching I just did, who in their right mind would buy it?