Laser Danger (Won't risk my own eyes, willing to risk yours) (̶T̶L̶:̶D̶R̶=̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶n̶e̶)̶

[Black Jack]

I’ve played airsoft for a number of years now, and I work as a health and safety person in my workplace. I’m a certified in Health and Safety through Conestoga college, and have consulted some highly accredited Industrial Hygienists and Safety professionals on the topic of lasers in military games. The answer has always been the same: "They pose no reasonable risk.". Yet over and over I see them being decried in ASC forums and banned on milsim and skirmish game rules. I’m going to try and dispel the myth that these items pose any quantifiable risk to airsofters, and I hope this is informative. I encourage anyone to look the topic up further from creditable health and safety websites to help form their own opinions. We will begin with what exactly were dealing with.

(from FDA website)

A laser pointer, Laser sight or laser pen is a small handheld device with a power source (usually a battery) and a laser diode emitting a very narrow coherent low-powered laser beam of visible light, intended to be used to highlight something of interest by illuminating it with a small bright spot of colored light. Power is restricted in most jurisdictions not to exceed 5 mW…
FDA regulates all laser products, even handheld, battery-powered lasers that are available for purchase from manufacturers, importers, assemblers, dealers or distributors in the United States and its territories. This includes lasers manufactured or obtained on a continuing basis for the purpose of sale or resale.

FDA requires that manufacturers of these lasers limit the power of the laser light to 5 milliWatts (often abbreviated as "mW") or less. The labeling or packaging must allow the purchaser to know the power of the laser, its hazard class, and its wavelength before the laser is purchased. Even online advertisements must display this information for the purchaser.
...

One way to determine if such a laser has been manufactured to regulatory power and hazard class limits is to find labeling. The labeling that comes with the laser (and online labeling) must display the power, hazard class, and wavelength. The wavelength is a number that describes the color of the beam.

The majority of the laser pointers used in the U.S. have either Class 2 lasers with a maximum power output of less than 1 mW or Class 3R diode lasers in the 630-680 nm wavelength (red), with a maximum power output of between 1 and 5 mW.

The label must display the laser power. It must be 5 milliWatts or less. The label must display the hazard class. It must be Class I, Class IIa, Class II, Class IIIa or Class 1, Class 2 or Class 3R.

(from Stanford University website)

Class 1 lasersClass 1 lasers are considered to be incapable of producing damaging radiation levels, and are therefore exempt from most control measures or other forms of surveillance. Example: laser printers.
Class 2 lasersClass 2 lasers emit radiation in the visible portion of the spectrum, and protection is normally afforded by the normal human aversion response (blink reflex) to bright radiant sources. They may be hazardous if viewed directly for extended periods of time. Example: laser pointers.
Class 3 lasersClass 3a lasers are those that normally would not produce injury if viewed only momentarily with the unaided eye. They may present a hazard if viewed using collecting optics, e.g., telescopes, microscopes, or binoculars. Example: HeNe lasers above 1 milliwatt but not exceeding 5 milliwatts radiant power.
Class 3b lasers can cause severe eye injuries if beams are viewed directly or specular reflections are viewed. A Class 3 laser is not normally a fire hazard. Example: visible HeNe lasers above 5 milliwatts but not exceeding 500 milliwatts radiant power.
Class 4 lasersClass 4 lasers are a hazard to the eye from the direct beam and specular reflections and sometimes even from diffuse reflections. Class 4 lasers can also start fires and can damage skin.

Therefore if you own a laser legally, it is class 1, 2, or 3a in some measure, The majority of red or green laser sights are class 3A. and is not harmful. I repeat: not harmful. If there was a laser on the market with serious risk of harming anyone, you wouldn’t have been able to buy it. And even if you could’ve done so illegally or gotten a foreign laser that’s built outside of regulations, a handheld laser powered by AA batteries simply doesn’t have the power output to pose a serious risk. You would have to hold the beam on the same pinpoint spot on a person for such an extended time to cause harm, its not considered a serious health threat in the hands of every day consumers.

Laser pointers make a potent signaling tool, even in daylight, and are able to produce a bright signal for potential search and rescue vehicles using an inexpensive, small and lightweight device of the type that could be routinely carried in an emergency kit.

Laser pointers if aimed at a person's eyes can cause temporary disturbances to vision. There is some evidence of rare minor permanent harm, but low-powered laser pointers are not seriously hazardous to health. They may be a major annoyance in some circumstances. A dot of light from a red laser pointer may be thought to be due to a laser gunsight, causing outrage and possible danger.[1] When pointed at aircraft at night, laser pointers may dazzle and distract pilots, and increasingly strict laws have been passed to ban this.

This is why there is such a myth of the dangers of lasers. People don’t want you shining them on other people not because it’s a health risk, but because it is annoying and can cause problems for Police and Pilots. But it’s too hard to enforce on people to not be assholes for no good reason. So instead they site the remote risks to someone’s health, so that the ill-mannered or immature can be told to stop doing something that’s not necessarily against any law. It’s just being a jerk.
When someone is shining a laser pointer on someone from the back of a class, or in a theater, or from their balcony, what are they told the reason is they should stop? “It’s a health risk” is the go-to reason. Suggesting you are posing a likely harm to the other person, and are somehow assaulting them, so you should stop. Youre going to rape their retinas with your deadly device, and blind them like a pirate forever. The risks are over inflated as an excuse to get them to stop, because “could you please stop being an asshole, Sir?” is sadly often not enough.

Some unregulated lasers have been sold that have ability to pop balloons or do other burning actions. These are generally able to do so after a feature is removed, or a filter put on or taken off. Or in some cases, people have been able to hack green lasers to increase their focus with use of additional components. These are likely not FDA regulated and may be class 3B or 4 lasers, and are usually the size of a flashlight, or have been tampered with and clearly modified. In any case, the laser you own should be classified in one way or another, and clearly identified as such by its label or manual or both. If it isn’t, then maybe you should consider not buying it or using it in a game. But understand that if yours does fall under the common commercially available classes, it’s because the government is ok with even the dumbest consumer owning it. Every tool poses a risk of harm if misused. In the same way every chemical (even water) is lethal beyond a certain concentration. The question is how likely is that risk, and how often will the circumstances needed to cause harm be created if even by accident.

Even though class 3B lasers pose a more real risk to people, you have to hold the beam steady and uninterrupted on a single point for an extended period of time. Prolonged exposure can be a concern, but this type of exposure isnt likely to happen in the span of any airsoft game. But in any case any powerful enough laser to pose a real risk of harm is not meant for public use and could used irresponsibly. But these classes are not marketed for the simple use of laser sights or illuminators. Those which we commonly use for airsoft will always be the less powerful and safe classes: Class I, Class IIa, Class II, Class IIIa or Class 1, Class 2 or Class 3R.

(from Princeton University Health and Safety dept.)

There have been reports of more powerful laser pointers imported from Russia and China that lack the appropriate warning labels. Some of these lasers emit green beams from frequency doubled Nd:YAG lasers operating at 532 nm and have emissions significantly exceeding the maximum permissible exposure (as per the ANSI laser standard, Z136). One of the lasers has a filter in the cap, which, if removed, allows the laser to emit both 532 nm and 1064 nm beams, in excess of 15 mW, making it an even more hazardous Class 3b laser.
All laser pointers should have a small sticker on them with either a yellow "Caution" or black and red "Danger" insignia, the laser classification (2 or 3R), the maximum output power (in milliwatts mW) and the wavelength. It is prudent not to purchase or use unlabeled laser pointers.
…
Laser Pointer Accidents and Incidents As laser pointers become more ubiquitous, more and more laser pointer related incidents have been reported worldwide. Most of the reports do not concern eye exposure, but outrage. For example, police officers have reportedly drawn their weapons when the light from laser pointers is mistaken for a gun sight. Laser beams projected into airspace and intercept aircraft have caused distractions…

Again, outside of unproven anecdotal reports of temporary injuries supposedly from laser exposure, the biggest threat of misuse is people causing mischief with lasers. Its more difficult to enforce this ideal on the immature, so instead we have to try and make them fearful of their use. One thing a lot of gamers do is shine their lasers or flashlights into the night sky to see their effectiveness. This may be the one most questionable use of these devices that’s often not discouraged. Its actually illegal to shine them at airplanes, and you could be reported.

(from Transport Canada)

If convicted of pointing a laser into an aircraft cockpit, the offender could face the $100,000 maximum fine under the Aeronautics Act, imprisonment of up to five years, or both penalties.
Transport Canada is working with various police authorities, other government departments, and the aviation industry to enforce this law.

Even with UV or IR lasers used with night vision, the health risk is negligible. The amount of focused UV radiation on any exposed skin is at such a low intensity, it would have to be set on the same exact point of a person’s skin for several minutes to even begin to cause something akin to a sunburn. That being said, you’re at a much higher risk of sun exposure during the course of a daytime game of airsoft than you could ever be exposed to by use of IR lasers during a night game.
Every time I see a ban on use of lasers in a game, Ive never once been able to have someone give a first hand honest account of them ever being harmed by one. Yet we continue to perpetuate the myth of their supposed risk, simply because there is a warning label on the device.

Some other warning labels

and some more

Every day were surrounded by warning labels that suggest risks we know are laughably unlikely. These are put in place to remove liability from a manufacturer due to improper use, under any circumstance they can think of. Its just to keep them out of court if someone does something unpredictable or unconscionably stupid with the item, and tries to deflect blame back at the manufacturer.

Like an echo chamber, the airsoft community continues to spread terror about lasers, and ban them from fields. Not because were unconscionably stupid. But because we are relying on rumor and myth instead of taking the time to research the topic and make informed decisions.

There are possible risks in many things we do on an airsoft field. Chief among them being the risks from shooting plastic balls at each other that travel up to an exceeding 400 feet per second. But we all accept these risks, because the community takes them as matter of fact and part of the game. Yet for some reason an item that poses a far lower risk, is often decried in forums as being too much to tolerate on the field. There’s probably an equal risk of a person suffocating from a plastic bag over their head in the game than suffering damage from a laser sight. But I’ve never once heard a public cry for brown-bagging your lunch to a game due to the health concerns of plastic.
I purpose that if we can collectively agree and self enforce the responsible use of airsoft guns themselves, that everyone can much more easily do so with the use of lasers and sights. Make rules based on real data and experience, not hear-say and fear. Countermeasure poor actions with rules that apply to them case by case, not make sweeping generalizations and bans. We are all playing this game assuming physical risks from activity, environment, and our weapons. I find it hard to believe any of us are terrified of a glorified cat toy, in a game where we can have serious physical injury from falls and exhaustion while shooting high speed projectiles at one another.

Useful links:
University of Ottawa Risk Management page on lasers

Transport Canada on lasers

Health Canada on lasers

[Danke]

So Transport Canada and Health Canada are checking out grey market Chinese IR lasers and blessing them?

It is 2 weeks till April 1.

[lurkingknight]

there is only one thing to say when arguing against your standpoint.

Made in China.

If you don't understand the depth of possibility behind those 3 words, you're a caveman who just discovered how to create fire in the middle of a forest.

Your depth of data and studies ALL assume the product was made to proper exacting standards and have legitimate stickers on them... What about the product that were counterfeit, made with counterfeit parts, or parts salvaged from something else and had part numbers and serial numbers filed off, in fact, some things you don't even know if the part they used is the right part, it just sort of works to present a similar result.

Why risk something for a piece of equipment that has little or no use in the game? cause it looks cool on your fake gun?

I'd rather be shot with 50RPS from 50 feet away than get any laser in the eye, deemed safe or otherwise, because I know welts and bleeders heal. My fucking eyes don't.

[pugs144]

Sheesh, way to take the wind out of OP's sails

[Black Jack]

Originally Posted by lurkingknight

I'd rather be shot with 50RPS from 50 feet away than get any laser in the eye, deemed safe or otherwise, because I know welts and bleeders heal. My fucking eyes don't.

You understand that flashlights over 100 lumins, and the grenades we use that could explode in your hand, and the flamable gas that drive your guns, and any noise over 85 decibels all pose a proven and actual risk to your health but we all accept those risks. But you talk like Id need to be a fool to accept the risk of a chinese death laser shining even momentarily in my eye? What facts back up that type of standpoint? How powerful do you think a laser driven off a flashlight battery is to make you that concerned?

[Cobrajr122]

Non-China Class 1 lasers with proper manufactures documentation ARE permitted at most games, including the large milsim games.

Class 1 is all you need, its not like you need a beam of light, just the dot.

Originally Posted by lurkingknight

there is only one thing to say when arguing against your standpoint.

Made in China.

If you don't understand the depth of possibility behind those 3 words, you're a caveman who just discovered how to create fire in the middle of a forest.

Also, that...

Originally Posted by Black Jack

You understand that flashlights over 100 lumins, and the grenades we use that could explode in your hand

Has this ever happened? EVER?
I have a lot of flashlights, its like my fetish - NONE have ever exploded. Same goes for gas driven grenades.... are you nuts?

Originally Posted by Black Jack

and the flamable gas that drive your guns

Unless your fucking RETARDED you wont be using propane rifles inside a fire...

Originally Posted by Black Jack

and any noise over 85 decibels all pose a proven and actual risk to your health but we all accept those risks.

We accept these risks, because there is none.
Shit does not just explode or catch on fire, you can wear ear pro if you're really worried that you have sensitive ears or you are going to hear 120db CONSTANTLY for 10+ mins, which simply will not happen.

You can protect against this stuff, you can not protect you eyes against lasers, not cheaply anyways.

FOX_111 has a blind spot from people using lasers, I don't know anybody how has lost a hand from exploding grenades.

[Black Jack]

what if I told you all the lasers FDA approved or not are being made in China?

[Black Jack]

Originally Posted by Cobrajr122

Non-China Class 1 lasers with proper manufactures documentation ARE permitted at most games, including the large milsim games.

Class 1 is all you need, its not like you need a beam of light, just the dot.

Read again: class 1 are in laser printers. The ones on your attachments are higher, but still pose no risk.

[Jimski]

I play covered in ballons to spot the powerful ones

[lurkingknight]

I will not trust fly by night chinese manufacturers that change their company name every 2 months to avoid any sort of repercussions to substandard product causing harm.

You're talking about a culture who will put toxic materials into animal feed meant for pets and livestock to boost protein count to acceptable levels... all to save pennies per metric tonne sold.

[Cobrajr122]

Originally Posted by Black Jack

Read again: class 1 are in laser printers. The ones on your attachments are higher, but still pose no risk.

NOPE - any laser we use on the field are CLASS 1 LASERS.

https://tnvc.com/shop/category/class...frared-lasers/

perhaps you need to do some more research.

[hattrick]

Tell that to my blind spot. If you want to host your own laser friendly game, have fun. I will never partake in a game that has lasers. Ever. Ever. EVER.

I wear ear protection, my ears are safe. I wear gloves, my hands are safe. Continue to tell me other wise oh genie of wisdom.

As you can tell this topic angers me - alex

edit * all directed @ op

[Black Jack]

Originally Posted by lurkingknight

I will not trust fly by night chinese manufacturers that change their company name every 2 months to avoid any sort of repercussions to substandard product causing harm.

You're talking about a culture who will put toxic materials into animal feed meant for pets and livestock to boost protein count to acceptable levels... all to save pennies per metric tonne sold.

.

You do know that FDA approves imported items also? Its stated even right at the begining of the OP here, did you read it? Also you know that its not the goal to shine lasers in anyones eyes during a game any more than it is to shoot people in the face with bbs. But ill take you up on your offer for science to prove if you're right. Ill let you shine an unregulated chinese laser pointer in my eyes for 3 seconds, if you let me shoot you in the face with a hot gun for 3 seconds, and we will see who has the worse day.

Otherwise how about you stop and think about what the hell youre talking about.

[mmmken]

Originally Posted by Black Jack

Even with UV or IR lasers used with night vision, the health risk is negligible. The amount of focused UV radiation on any exposed skin is at such a low intensity, it would have to be set on the same exact point of a person’s skin for several minutes to even begin to cause something akin to a sunburn. That being said, you’re at a much higher risk of sun exposure during the course of a daytime game of airsoft than you could ever be exposed to by use of IR lasers during a night game.

You want all of us to take you seriously when you think the real danger of an IR laser is UV radiation? Please. Radiation is the last of our worries with certain IR lasers.

Not to mention, your introduction sounds really pretentious.

[Black Jack]

Originally Posted by hattrick

Tell that to my blind spot. If you want to host your own laser friendly game, have fun. I will never partake in a game that has lasers. Ever. Ever. EVER.

I wear ear protection, my ears are safe. I wear gloves, my hands are safe. Continue to tell me other wise oh genie of wisdom.

As you can tell this topic angers me - alex

edit * all directed @ op

Sorry allow me to clarify: are you saying you've suffered perminant eye damage because someone shined a laser in your eye at an airsoft game? Can you back tjat up? Cause ill delete this thread if what happened to you was just that.