Anyone else longing for a shift to real cap mags?

[ViR]

If airsoft and real steel is apples and oranges why are you taking orange seeds and sticking them in apples?

You have to adjust distance, penetration power, and most importantly tactics when going from RS to airsoft but you dont want to adjust ammo? Everything else is changing, why not change ammo cap?
When you have 300 real bullets you won't waste 30 of them playing peek-a-boo with a person behind a door.. you will use 2 and shoot thru the door. Thats why soldiers carry 300+ rounds, not 3000 because they dont need to. Because they CAN shoot thru the door. We cant.. so we need more ammo..

[Aper]

Originally Posted by ViR

If airsoft and real steel is apples and oranges why are you taking orange seeds and sticking them in apples?

You have to adjust distance, penetration power, and most importantly tactics when going from RS to airsoft but you dont want to adjust ammo? Everything else is changing, why not change ammo cap?
When you have 300 real bullets you won't waste 30 of them playing peek-a-boo with a person behind a door.. you will use 2 and shoot thru the door. Thats why soldiers carry 300+ rounds, not 3000 because they dont need to. Because they CAN shoot thru the door. We cant.. so we need more ammo..

Buddy. In RL when I was in A-Stan, we couldn't say fuck this i'm out, let's go back at our FOB to reload and get back in the fight. Each round counted and only God knows for how long you would be there waiting.

In airsoft, you have that chance to go reload when empty or KIA, so there's your ''we need more ammo'' solution.

[Ricochet]

A: In real life firefights, people adjust by hiding behind more solid objects. "They have automatics, let's hide behind some plywood, or a door, or something."

B: In airsoft, no matter how many rounds you have, you're still not penetrating that door. I waste one magazine of thirty rounds on said door; result, a fail. You waste one magazine of 300 rounds on said door; result, a fail. Ten times the fail actually.

Move closer, move around, move into position. Result, all is still relative.

[ViR]

Umm right.. Check video at 4:44..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSVR...tailpage#t=284

Give me some options regarding how should I move around and get into a position.

The only option I had was to shoot 30 BBs into a barrel of a rifle that was sticking out from the door in hopes enemy switches to secondary..

[targetGspot]

I agree that low-mid caps are far more fun for indoor cqb games (full auto indoor is kinda silly anyway, you'll probably get hit by more ricochets than anything), but out in the bush we usually play mid or hi caps and it keeps things moving better than if everyone is waiting for the perfect shot! having said that, sometimes just going out for a "sidearm only round" (anything single shot or semi auto, low cap only-pistols, grenade, shotgun) can be a whole lotta fun!

[ViR]

Oh Im not saying its not fun to do real cap or pistol only games.. Its all fun..
But.. There is not point of applying hard rules on ammo "just like real steel" since everything else (maybe besides gear and NVGs) is NOT like real steel.. Guns, their accuracy and penetration, tactics.. etc.. its all "modified". So while A, B, C, D.. etc "parts" are modified you will leave "M" (for aMMo) the same?

[Styrak]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

A: In real life firefights, people adjust by hiding behind more solid objects. "They have automatics, let's hide behind some plywood, or a door, or something."

Not really contributing to the conversation but just wanted to make a comment on this. 223/5.56mm (or whatever you're using) would go through plywood and most doors like butter.

[MultipleParadox]

Originally Posted by ViR

penetration, tactics.. etc.. its all "modified". So while A, B, C, D.. etc "parts" are modified you will leave "M" (for ammo) the same?

Why would that be a problem?
I mean, your questioning is legit and all, but if you think about it, there's no real reason why there would need to be a "rule" saying you can't replicate just part of the RS world.

====================================

Thing is, you can easily enforce ammo restriction but you cannot just replicate the accuracy, range, fear factor etc found in real combat situation. You gotta do what you can with what you have yes?

If you look at the games in Quebec (yeah that, again!) it is more and more like it and I'll say I prefer this by far;

Personally, I found that in great quantity, ammo is actually a limiting factor preventing you to enjoy the full experience of the game.

When you think about it, Airsoft is not about shooting people to get points or whatever, nor is most game "a la" team deathmatch. There is no real reward because you gunned an opponent, aside from the satisfaction. Guns and BBs are just part of the whole thing, props if you will, and like anything else, too much of something is not necessarily good.

To get back to the Quebec thing, I'll add that more and more games are going a more toward role play (without going too deep in this) with post-apocalyptic themes where ammo is scarce, and it's more about survival, strategy, wits, etc then again, the Larp community is pretty big over here and a lot of airsofters comes from there too

[coach]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

B: In airsoft, no matter how many rounds you have, you're still not penetrating that door. I waste one magazine of thirty rounds on said door; result, a fail. You waste one magazine of 300 rounds on said door; result, a fail. Ten times the fail actually.

Move closer, move around, move into position. Result, all is still relative.

I'd love to say that anyone who dumps 300 rounds on a door is clearly an idiot, but I must admit that it is a tactic that I have used to pin people within a room or area. This would then allow that the rest of the team to flank/get into position to toss grenades or pop 40 mike mikes

[DrDoUm]

I think it all comes down to the principle of limiting ammo both in the gun and on the operator. Where you put the limit is abritrary. No matter if your ratio is 1:1 or 2:1 bullets or whatever, it will probably serve the same purpose which is:

1) Everyone has to reload relatively often, making the ability to reload fast, to aim accurately, etc. more crucial in battle. This has a positive impact on the realism of the operation and the satisfaction of a large amount of players.

2) Everyone has to take in consideration his global ammo loadout when attacking or defending a position. This makes some positions harder to defend from repetitive attacks, it also forces players to refine their strategies, etc. In other words it cranks up the challenge which, again, increase the satisfaction of players.

I believe it is legit to limit ammo to realcap considering some GBBRs have this limitation to begin with. Now, if most of the players in your area/group of player operate with AEGs and lowcaps/midcaps... I believe you would end up with similar results having an higher BB to Bullet ratio, as long as there's a reasonnably low limit for everyone.

In our area, we moved from a point based system where lower capacity mags were worth less points and the sum of your mag points was limited to 10, for example. At the time realcap games emerged, many teams and players were already using realcap only to their own disadvantage, although the amount of BBs on every player was quite the same.

[ThunderCactus]

Yeah, paradox gets it lol
And Coach, I didn't wanna say it outright, but yeah.

As for penetration through objects, yeah it's a problem. But how would you deal with that problem if you had a bolt action rifle and were forced to carry a limited number of rounds?
You'd deal with that problem the exact same way you'd deal with it if you had a real M4 and the target was behind a concrete wall.
You either re-position to get a better shot, or you wait until the target pokes out and then shoot them.

Solid objects that can't be shot through occur more frequently in airsoft, but they also occur in the world of real steel. So just because they occur more often doesn't necessarily mean we should handicap ourselves to deal with it lol

As for scaling ammo, if all the physics are scaled back, the ammo remains constant, because the amount of ammo you have doesn't affect how accurate or how far the gun shoots.

Now I've been a noob myself and I remember all the frustrations I had with all of what you're saying and I see it with all the new people coming in. But I can't help but get the feeling your argument is based more on you being a bad shot, than the actual concept here.
I've had to shoot plenty of people bobbing up and down in windows, hiding behind doors, trees, pallets, you name it. But I never felt like I needed more ammo to deal with it, and that's a critical lesson that I only learned from using both an M249 and a bolt action rifle. It's absolutely possible to accomplish with 1 BB what you could do with 20.

So scenario; Guys in a plywood building we made out of 2x4s, sticks, pallets and deck screws. He's bobbing up and down in the window and you can't seem to get the timing right.
It's easy to just say, if you had a real M4, you could just shoot through the building.
But if you had a real M4, he'd be in real danger, and that shitty corrugated plastic sided building would probably be something like....a shit-mud reinforced shack, that's actually difficult to shoot through.

And let's be realistic, what would be the challenge in just shooting THROUGH a building? Real operators RARELY have that choice. They either blow the building apart with heavy weapons or go in and clear it.

So you say you should be able to shoot through the building, the reality of the situation is with real combat, you probably wouldn't be able to shoot through that building.

So in terms of realism, airsoft still remains quite accurate, given a much shorter distance scale.

I would totally accept your complaints about shooting through brush though, definitely do not mind 70 rounds a mag when someone has successfully taken cover behind a shrubbery lol

[Scouser]

lol, stupid shrubbery, i distinctly remember a couple years ago at ivangrad amos and i both went through a hi cap each just trying to get each other through some bushes that had us seperated by maybe 15 feet

we had a good laugh about it afterwards though


edit:

that being said, i usually end up just running 75 rd midcaps, i havent gotten to take part in any realcap games yet mainly because ive been out of airsoft for 2 years now and am just getting back in

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by Styrak

Not really contributing to the conversation but just wanted to make a comment on this. 223/5.56mm (or whatever you're using) would go through plywood and most doors like butter.

I guess it's hard to express sarcasm through text.

Thundercactus touched on a good point, you wouldn't necessarily try shooting through something just because you can. And let's not forget, your enemy can likely return fire through the same object back at you. At best, we are going to get to simulation aspects, and that's the point. Who gives a shit if you can shoot through an object. If you're that concerned about certain sim aspects, build your doors and shit out of cardboard.

Tactics are what change the course of a game. A very small portion of airsoft focuses strictly on the fire fight. A crack airsoft player can shoot a player with one or two rounds, sometimes without an engagement. Your biggest weapon should always be your brain.

On that video, if your referring to that guy behind the door, I'm seriously not seeing the issue. Most fields, games, teams use a crack shooting rule. Basically it's a sportsmanship rule that states you cannot shoot through, at close range, a hole or space, in a single solid object, that you cannot fit your fist, or head, or whatever through. This has been common in airsoft since its inception, due to the lack of accuracy, precision, and consistency of earlier airsoft guns. Now, it isn't a problem to put a BB through a very small space with relative accuracy, at up to a hundred feet or more. To deal with that guy, lay down heavy suppressive fire, and flank, attack, or retreat. There's always an option, don't get stuck on, "I have to shoot this goof, right now, even if it means pushing a bad position , or expelling all of my ammo on him". There's also team tactics, grenades, calling him names and crap, ...ya know, whatever work.

As far as role playing goes, I only enjoy limited amounts, directly based on game dynamics. Most military involved elements are to enhance tactics, and effectiveness. Due to the fact that this is a combat style game, the military would have the most effective and relative tools.

[Wrath144]

If your #1 goal in an airsoft game is to shoot people, you do not belong in this conversation.

[CR0M]

Originally Posted by Wrath144

If your #1 goal in an airsoft game is to shoot people, you do not belong in this conversation.

end thread