New and improved - NIGHT VISION FAQ

[pestobanana]

Originally Posted by EOD Steve

I think one of the main reasons for the disparity is the geographic locations of the various participants in this and other NV-related threads.

Southern Ontario has lately been in a sort of NV frenzy with equating to what feels like an arms race. Local buyers demand Gen3, gated units with no real understanding of what exactly they're buying - they only know that they must get it because "this guy has it so I have to get it too, or something better". I anticipate that we'll be seeing a lot of NV on the field in 2017 where Gen2 will no longer be competitive. The very definition of mid/high-end is constantly being redefined in the GTA. In 2016, thinfilm/filmless green tubes were the high mark, but now with white phosphor floating around, that has become the new high mark.

On the other hand, in Alberta and BC, I can see Gen2 still being quite usable as the handful of Gen3 units in use is still relatively small. Thus the requirements are lower.


The biggest underlying issue currently is prospective buyers' understanding of rudimentary foreign currency exchange and scarcity of supply relative to the quality they see (eg: "I want an autogated, OMNI7-equivalent PVS14 for under $3k") That having been said, if someone is looking for units to run in 2017, I highly suggest visiting the Classifieds right now as there are several very good units up for grabs. If the USD/CAD rate stays high, I don't anticipate being able to reproduce these prices come springtime.

The main reason for the disparity here is that there input from people that do not actually run NODs and people with limited experience with NODs. Problem with the old thread was attempting to sound smart and look like a big deal vs sharing useful information gained through experience and actual academic understanding.

I think the degree of buyer inexperience in Ontario gives you a glimpse into the reasoning behind the arms race and why so many people are looking into NODs. Buyers generally get NODs to be a cool kid on the block. That's the reason so many people around here want Gen 3 autogated: they aren't concerned with maximizing price to performance ratio, they're concerned with being as cool as everyone else. Of the guys that have recently asked me about NODs, none showed any interest in non gated gen 3 units even though they barely even have a vague understanding of what gating is, does, or what it accomplishes. I talked to one guy about high end Photonis tubes, his response was along the lines of "but its gen 2 garbage", which really shows the concern with titles and labeling as opposed to performance.

[nardac]

And then some even buy thermals

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by nardac

And then some even buy thermals

This was the route I wanted to go and looked heavily into it, but the consensus was that thermal under $4,500 plus wasn't even worth looking at because of low refresh rates, crappy visuals and trouble working during the day. That was what actually drawing me towards thermal over NV was because you could use them during the day.

[BenG]

Speaking of thermal prices, pesto what did you pay for your pas 23 before all the modding you did, im really curious as to what one goes for in country, cheapest I was able to find was like 3300US on ebay, so not sourcable.

[pestobanana]

Night vision is a more useful to acquire first because it is used for navigation. With a thermal, you have to deal with annoying stuff like shitty battery life. If you have a helmet mounted thermal that is not a fusion device, you will have a harder time navigating, and you won't be able to aim. You cannot see lasers, you cannot use sights. You're sort of limited to using thermal as a temporary spotting device or dedicated weapon sight. Unless of course you're baller and have a fusion setup.

Thermal under 4.5k is usable, it just depends on what you get. Armasight Predator 336 30Hz is more than usable and is 2.8k USD. I briefly played around with a Pulsar XD series weapon sight a week ago, they are more than usable for airsoft and are priced at 3k USD. Mid-tier thermals are less useful during the day because things are generally warmer - there is less temperature difference between human targets and brush, and the sun heats things up so it is more difficult to see the difference between brush and the ground. You also see a lot of warm and cold spots that are actually just shadows and areas sunlight has heated up. I do not have experience with a true high end thermal.

I got my AN/PAS-23 off a friend for $5300.

[BenG]

I have had nods for 2 years now, im more asking for using as an offset, back when the torry pines came out before we knew they were shit, I was considering getting one to use on an offset rail mount as a spotting device, im still considering it but if the pas 23s can be had for sub 4k then id save for one of those because no matter how good your nods are people can still hide from you just like they do during the day.

[docholiday]

Pulsar XD offerings hands down one of the best if not the best performance to price ratio i mean look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDfsxhNcp9k

And just look at them specs:

-384x288 resolution, 50hz refresh rate
-High resolution LCD display
-950m detection range (human)
-One-shot zeroing with freeze function
-4x digital zoom with picture in picture feature

Used this day and night over the past year - thermal is an absolute game changer... say bye bye to hiding. At certain fields here i can stand on one end of the field and see everything e.g. PRZ. Where before you were worried if you will encounter enemies now you just do a quick thermal scan and are like alright g2g for a casual walk here. And the beauty is flashlights, smoke, fog, mist or anything like that don't even bother you.

Thermal is such a game changer that some of us are selling or sold theirs cause it ruined the game.

[BenG]

Originally Posted by docholiday

Pulsar XD offerings hands down one of the best if not the best performance to price ratio i mean look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDfsxhNcp9k

And just look at them specs:



Used this day and night over the past year - thermal is an absolute game changer... say bye bye to hiding. At certain fields here i can stand on one end of the field and see everything e.g. PRZ. Where before you were worried if you will encounter enemies now you just do a quick thermal scan and are like alright g2g for a casual walk here. And the beauty is flashlights, smoke, fog, mist or anything like that don't even bother you.

Thermal is such a game changer that some of us are selling or sold theirs cause it ruined the game.

Ill look into them, I know very little about thermal, other then it cant see through glass, lens protectors cost a fortune

[docholiday]

Originally Posted by BenG

Ill look into them, I know very little about thermal, other then it cant see through glass, lens protectors cost a fortune

Lens protector I ran for the past year was <100$.

[ThunderCactus]

So I guess the real question is; Has Chris tried the adams industries color NV yet?

[BenG]

http://www.adamsindustries.com/

link for the interested

[pestobanana]

I think this thread has been sufficiently derailed, if you want to talk about thermal it would be best to make a new thread.

[c3sk]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

So I guess the real question is; Has Chris tried the adams industries color NV yet?

No, sadly I have not. I went the White Phosphor PVS-31 route instead. I'll hopefully get a chance to mess around with the Adams color NV set in January.

I think this thread should be relabeled and simply marked as a NV Discussion thread. Nobody has all the answers for NV related stuff, so a definitive guide just won't be possible, other larger forums have tried and failed. I believe an open ended NV discussion (like above) with users combined experiences could give great insight to anyone considering getting into Night Vision, or provide experienced Night Vision users with some alternate perspectives.

Originally Posted by pestobanana

I think this thread has been sufficiently derailed, if you want to talk about thermal it would be best to make a new thread.

I would agree with you there Z, but you know the two are very much paired up on other major forums... they almost go hand in hand now. In 5 years digital SWIR imaging will be the new go to device, and then they will need to be combined anyways. :P

[Derpystronk]

Originally Posted by pestobanana

That's the reason so many people around here want Gen 3 autogated: they aren't concerned with maximizing price to performance ratio, they're concerned with being as cool as everyone else. Of the guys that have recently asked me about NODs, none showed any interest in non gated gen 3 units even though they barely even have a vague understanding of what gating is, does, or what it accomplishes. I talked to one guy about high end Photonis tubes, his response was along the lines of "but its gen 2 garbage", which really shows the concern with titles and labeling as opposed to performance.

I think this paragraph here is actually one of the most important nuggets in the thread thus far. There are certain conceptions and misconceptions in the Night Vision "game" that people have. My favorite is getting asked whether or not something is Gen 2, or Gen 2+, and when I ask them what that question means I get a very confused response.

I have, on occasion, demonstrated this by throwing high end-ish Photonis tubes inside of a PVS-14 housing and showing them to people. At first I will explain they are Gen 3, to which they are usually satisfied as being an alright unit but not top of the line. When I explain it's actually a "Gen 2" unit there is genuine surprise.

This is to say nothing of the silly Photonis Intens tubes that apparently can match ITT/L3 quality, as well as having capability for using out of band devices... Even though it's effectively still "Gen 2" technology.

The real issue with Night Vision is that there are so many sources, so many tubes, so many raw details and many of them can be wrong on a number of fronts. It really comes down to price and value. The go-to for the last half a decade was "buy a PVS-14 on the classifieds" - those are slowly drying up while demand is simultaneously increasing. People have started looking more and more to buying retail solutions. We currently can't get top of the top of the line here in Canada at retail, but we can get something that is competitive... You will see at night, kill your enemies, and feel good.

But we have a new problem. The Dollar. Prices on "decent" units have gone up by over 50% in some cases. What was once a flat 2,000 dollar proposition is now in the 3,000+ range. At that point you are better off getting a full fledged OMNI 7, and for now, you have that option. In a few years? Once everybody is nodded up with the entire markets supply and there are still hungry buyers? Kind of like Steve said:

Originally Posted by EOD Steve

If the USD/CAD rate stays high, I don't anticipate being able to reproduce these prices come springtime.

This market is blowing up, the exchange sucks, the supply is drying up, and the rest of the country is going to slowly turn into NVG town. The situation is going to get real bad, real fast.

I foresee a return of the dank Photonis toobs, to be completely honest.

[Ricochet]

"Meh". By that time there'll be something else out there to worry about and serious players will buy NV or thermal like players now by radios, it's pretty much a necessity.

I'm glad you guys are sharing all the technical and brand info though because people are buying without understanding and NODs are a big investment/step. The same thing we used to do with guns and crap back in the day, but now it's thousands of dollars.

Besides, with the way mainstream airsoft is going I see the community permanently splitting into two, and although some may say that this has already started happening, I mean it'll schism into two very night and day (classifiable) types. The first would be the casual/weekend warrior skirmish players with less emphasis on gear (high-caps everywhere), and an overall "just for fun" feel, and then of course the tactically competitive type where skill/athleticism, team/squad and gear/technology will all have to be in balance to stay competitive.

This is by far the biggest disparity right now and always has been in my opinion. People keep trying to say there's several groups (COD'ers, Milsim'ers, etc, etc), but unless you belong to a specialty group like WWII reinactment, then you likely belong to one of the two groups I mentioned above. It's those two groups who don't get along the most to be honest because their goals are different. Some people want it to be casual fun and others find their fun in hardcore competitiveness.

Casual players aren't going to buy NV, or don't want to have to, and won't want to play when everyone has them. But if you are gonna buy something like this it's important you get the right product for what you need.