V2 & V3 Drafting project.

[Kokanee]

I would like to know how large the pile of gold is you sleep on at night that you are talking about having custom gears manufactured and tempered to boot?

[ThunderCactus]

I should add, try to make better use of the torque available, instead of reducing the torque required
You don't actually need an 11.1v lipo to run at 1200-1500rpm, or 30,000 rpm motors
Some people have gotten to 25rps using a 7.4v lipo and high speed gears

PTW's generally get 1BB/mah or better efficiency doing semi only at 420fps. They really take advantage of the motor's torque using the M130 cylinder.

It would be a good idea to get a map of people's battery efficiency so you can see if you're really making an improvement.
I guess the best way to do it would be comparing guns and setups using semi-only, and compare active braking vs non-active braking
Using full auto would be unfair since it's naturally more efficient.

I don't recall the exact number, but I recall being frustrated changing batteries on my old M4 AEG lol
tuned up G&P M140, triggermaster w active braking on, 380fps, heavy prometheus double torque gears, 380fps, bearings, 7.4v 1600mah lipo, running around 900rpm, I think it was around 1.5BB/mah
Would have benefited from using standard ratio gears I think. Was running a 9.6 mini before that's why it had the double torques.

[Bandit50]

Originally Posted by Kokanee

I would like to know how large the pile of gold is you sleep on at night that you are talking about having custom gears manufactured and tempered to boot?

Anyone can temper a metal so long as it's not alloy. Then it gets expensive, there is frequencies involved, and usually some extra steps to ensure the product keeps it shape, and is on the cusp of fusion where the material breaks down into liquid state.

To fabricate a gear box, all it takes is a good knowledge of welding, measurements, and machining. Knowing the basics for an electrical circuit doesn't hurt either, and well what you can't make.(gears) You buy !

What I meant by build or make a gear box. Is I will have to assemble a gear box for my Masada (upgrade from the A&K to something more reliable and efficient), while getting measurements for a current standard V2 Gearbox. There will be nothing custom about it other then maybe some AoE and what pieces I decide to use, Lonex, madbull, Hurricane etc, etc. As I understand the value of precise measurements rather then a used/worn measurement.

Which, can benefit those that do maintenance on there AEG's. As this brings me to my first pieces I am going to pick up.



Update 1:

As I have done some additional hunting for this project, I have managed to pick up a fully assembled box to really get the standard sizes. I switched from an E&C Box to Army Force, as I find the quality for the shell is up, however the Spring guide IMO isn't, I will get the standards form this box to start the drafting part of the project. Which will also give me a base to start messing around with some custom ideas in CAD.

From the build side of the project I am going to start piecing together a strong gear box. Again, I am not going for RoF world records or Highest FPS. I am going for something that's provides long battery life/time, that can be used for either in or outdoor games and is reliable and robust.

Again, it has the simplicity like Lonex. It fits 8mm bearing/bushings and changing wiring layouts. It's also a QD gear box, which means the spring can be changed to suite the game requirements. It also doesn't cost 108$ and isn't forged and then CNC machined, which is a lot of time and money and can weaken some parts depending on how the product is molded and then milled, thus this keeps the price down.

Update 2:

So, I picked up these two little numbers, for the gear box. Now, I am measuring things out off of the original parts from the complete gear box that I have received. Which is an Army One Transform Gear Box. I am changing things as I see the need to, making tolerances tighter and parts more efficient to utilize the full KE of the spring. As well as adding a bearing to the Back of the piston head like many other companies have done. Other things for example, like the PX Piston/Ram. I will be measuring, because I like the overall design. Which is something I do approve of and is things I would do myself to reduce friction. Sadly theirs is polymer. Mine would be teflon.



I am a firm believer of full metal internals, however there are a few pieces “I” feel should be left as plastic.
The air nozzle, which pushes bbs in to the hop-up/chamber of the airsoft rifle. The tapper plate, as this allows the gear box to cycle and act as a good mid ground if there ever is a fatal error inside the gear box or out. The selector plate as this allow almost no current to pass, causing a short and the trigger components for similar reasons like the selector plate.

Knowing that, it should be very simple to figure out what I would like to see made out of metal.

On a side note, I am aware that some pieces like the piston ram should be made out of light materials as this allows faster response from the spring and easier friction on the slides. I like the ideas of rams like the Madbull PX, and other Hybrid Plastic rams with metal teeth, but at the end of the day much like a heavier projectile, it will have more KE at the end of the compression, and expansion of the spring.
And much like a car cylinder, metal will force air out of chamber creating higher compression in tighter gaps, through the nozzle and make that bb fly.

[zzzzsleepy8]

Anyone can temper alloys. Steel is an alloy too. Your home oven has temperature ranges that can be used to temper quench hardened steel.

Tempering often refers to a series of lower temperature heat treatment steps to improve strength and toughness of a pre-heat treated or quench hardened component to relieve residual stresses.

I don't know what you mean by frequencies as it refers to tempering. For steels, you just need to look at a TTT diagram to get desired results for creating the desired part for quench hardening. Then you go temper at a lower temperature for a time frame to strengthen the part again. You are unlikely to utilize temperatures that will melt a part down during tempering stages. High temperatures are often for thermal hardening or solutionizing steps. Tempering is often done in 300-450F range for most steels for example.

And plus, I'm almost certain that most AEG manufacturers are not in precision engineering fields. I think the best of them simply hand wavingly harden their steel by heating to a 'very high temperature' and then quench hardened, then tempered. I doubt they go through laborious processes of getting the precise alloy, the precise treatment protocol based on TTT diagrams, and then tempered to provide some kind of precision engineered hardened gearset component that is then ground to designed specs.

The most important measurements you need to make to copy a V2 gearbox are location of gear sets, which need to mesh well. But since you are designing your own eventually, it becomes a moot point. In that case, you will want to know the overall outside dimensions of the V2 gearbox, because they represent your space constraints to fit inside most AEGs. So your own design must satisfy those space requirements. Also, location of holes and screw hols that hold a gearbox into position in the lower, become important to ensure your completed gearbox is located properly once secured into the lower.

[Bandit50]

Originally Posted by zzzzsleepy8

Anyone can temper alloys. Steel is an alloy too. Your home oven has temperature ranges that can be used to temper quench hardened steel.

Tempering often refers to a series of lower temperature heat treatment steps to improve strength and toughness of a pre-heat treated or quench hardened component to relieve residual stresses.

I don't know what you mean by frequencies as it refers to tempering. For steels, you just need to look at a TTT diagram to get desired results for the quench hardened part. You are unlikely to utilize temperatures that will melt a part down during tempering stages. High temperatures are often for thermal hardening or solutionizing steps. Tempering is often done in 300-450F range for most steels for example.

The most important measurements you need to make to copy a V2 gearbox are location of gear sets, which need to mesh well. But since you are designing your own eventually, it becomes a moot point. In that case, you will want to know the overall outside dimensions of the V2 gearbox, because they represent your space constraints to fit inside most AEGs. So your own design must satisfy those space requirements. Also, location of holes and screw hols that hold a gearbox into position in the lower, become important to ensure your completed gearbox is located properly once secured into the lower.

You have never welded with aluminum have you? NiAl requires very intensive things when you temper it.. usually its best to do it in the modeling blocks.

Gear position does not need to be anything close to the standard Ill show you once i get the shell drafted . The only thing that matters is the constraints of the physical size of the shell, that is, if you want to to fit into a standard gun. A great example of this is the Airsoft minigun what Gear box does that use? >.>

and kids I don't recommend using your cooking oven for tempering your steel mom will get mad, and you may burn down the house or yourself.

but thanks sleepy, this wasn't ridiculous at all.

[zzzzsleepy8]

Originally Posted by Bandit50

You have never welded with aluminum have you? NiAl requires very intensive things when you temper it.. usually its best to do it in the modeling blocks.

Gear position does not need to be anything close to the standard Ill show you once i get the shell drafted . The only thing that matters is the constraints of the physical size of the shell, that is, if you want to to fit into a standard gun. A great example of this is the Airsoft minigun what Gear box does that use? >.>

and kids I don't recommend using your cooking oven for tempering your steel mom will get mad, and you may burn down the house or yourself.

but thanks sleepy, this wasn't ridiculous at all.

LoL. Yes I have actually.

The guy you were replying to was talking about custom gears. I doubt you'd want to manufacture your gears out of aluminum. Just saying.

Well, you said you wanted this to be a two step project. First is copy an existing gearbox. In this case, you'd want to know gear positions because you will be using commercially available gears that must mesh well. The second step is eventually designing your own gearbox, which as I've said is the only step where knowing the overall dimensions matter more because that is your space constraint. So I doubt we are in disagreement.

I'm more at odds with this quote:

Anyone can temper a metal so long as it's not alloy. Then it gets expensive, there is frequencies involved, and usually some extra steps to ensure the product keeps it shape, and is on the cusp of fusion where the material breaks down into liquid state.

Lets use examples. Steel is an alloy. You can temper quench hardened O2 tool steel at 450F for 2 hours in your average home oven that can reach those temperatures. They are obviously not industrial ovens and have poor temperature stability, but point being you could do it.

As for frequencies, I dont know what this means.

The product will keep its shape if the part does not relax residual stresses in a short time interval, which is what a proper tempering cycle is supposed to do, slowly relieve residual stresses.

Again, tell me a tempering process that is anywhere close to liquidus temperatures for alloyed constituents. It wouldnt be called tempering if you are anywhere close to melting temperature.

Anyway good luck with your project. It will take me maybe 1-2 days max to CMM probe the whole gearbox and CAD it too if I cared to but you like to do your own thing so good luck. Just don't use aluminum for the gears.

[Bandit50]

Originally Posted by zzzzsleepy8

LoL. Yes I have actually.

The guy you were replying to was talking about custom gears. I doubt you'd want to manufacture your gears out of aluminum. Just saying.

Well, you said you wanted this to be a two step project. First is copy an existing gearbox. In this case, you'd want to know gear positions because you will be using commercially available gears that must mesh well. The second step is eventually designing your own gearbox, which as I've said is the only step where knowing the overall dimensions matter more because that is your space constraint. So I doubt we are in disagreement.

I'm more at odds with this quote:



Lets use examples. Steel is an alloy. You can temper quench hardened O2 tool steel at 450F for 2 hours in your average home oven that can reach those temperatures. They are obviously not industrial ovens and have poor temperature stability, but point being you could do it.

As for frequencies, I dont know what this means.

The product will keep its shape if the part does not relax residual stresses in a short time interval, which is what a proper tempering cycle is supposed to do, slowly relieve residual stresses.

Again, tell me a tempering process that is anywhere close to liquidus temperatures for alloyed constituents. It wouldnt be called tempering if you are anywhere close to melting temperature.

Depends on how far you want the temper to affect below the surface and how much of the molecular structure you want to change. In the case of aluminum, when welding. We fuse the two pieces together with stock and electricity, because of the resistance to aluminum in comparison of other conductors, and the thickness of the stock. We need to adjust the frequency so that the stock that is bonding the 2 piece together, penitents and becomes part of the structure.

With tempering aluminum you need to take it up to a specific degree so that the tempered surface bonds with the structure other wise it will flake off.

Some times tempering aluminum is done with electrical current, in the case of (NiAl) as Ni melts easy, and you need to use Freq to temper the stock like welding(above) so that it penitents below the surface farther, like aircraft wiring, but that's just the basic level of it !

[ThunderCactus]

He's talking about induction hardening, which is FASTER than your typical oven heat treating, but requires more intelligence and care to do it properly

And oven tempering works just as well, just takes significantly longer to heat up. Since the temp is coming from the outside in, you have to soak the material at whatever given temperature (tempering is always below 800F, and I've personally never had to go above 450F) for one hour per inch of thickness, and the thicker it is, the slower it needs to cool to be perfect.

The cooling rate should be the same with induction hardening, but the internal temperature should come up much faster since it's essentially being heated from the inside out

The tempering and hardening and aging process differ from alloy to alloy, especially between ferritic and non-ferritic alloys

Originally Posted by zzzzsleepy8

And plus, I'm almost certain that most AEG manufacturers are not in precision engineering fields. I think the best of them simply hand wavingly harden their steel by heating to a 'very high temperature' and then quench hardened, then tempered.

That's why aftermarket gears are the best!


Also, important note; don't be like FCC and make the bearing holes too far apart lol

[zzzzsleepy8]

Originally Posted by Bandit50

Depends on how far you want the temper to affect below the surface and how much of the molecular structure you want to change. In the case of aluminum, when welding. We fuse the two pieces together with stock and electricity, because of the resistance to aluminum in comparison of other conductors, and the thickness of the stock. We need to adjust the frequency so that the stock that is bonding the 2 piece together, penitents and becomes part of the structure.

With tempering aluminum you need to take it up to a specific degree so that the tempered surface bonds with the structure other wise it will flake off.

Some times tempering aluminum is done with electrical current, in the case of (NiAl) as Ni melts easy, and you need to use Freq to temper the stock like welding(above) so that it penitents below the surface farther, aircraft wiring, but that's just the basic level of it !

You can homogenize the temperature of most parts fairly quickly. You can do simulations or back of the envelope calculations to estimate time to equillibriate a part to the oven temperature. Obviously smaller parts are pretty quick. If you throw a bunch of gears into a thermal cycling oven, a few minutes will do it. So its mostly non-issue. Even most half clam shells of the V2 gearboxes, you throw that in an oven and you will get an equillibrium temperature part to the oven temperature in a few minutes. Aluminum has fairly good thermal conductivity and fairly low heat capacity so it will reach oven temperatures pretty quick. THis is also why people like to use aluminum for heat sinks.

It looks like you are discussing use of some kind of cast aluminum for your gearbox clam shells and or use of welding of aluminum parts. For what its worth, I personally wouldn't even bother with casting anything unless its a really intricate geometry that cannot be CNC machined, in which case it often means you should run back to the drawing board anyway to make it machinable. But I'd simply use and machine out of a block of 6061-T6 aluminum as is and it should suffice for the gearbox outer shell for its purposes. 6061 T6 is already tempered. Machine it, anodize it, maybe re-machine critical features post-anodizing, and you are good to go.

[Bandit50]

ThunderCactus, someone who understands my level <3

PS, we all know if the bearing had a guide to help the spacing, it would have survived and probably been better, as there would have been a specific gap for grease, but.. china.. is a wonderful place that skips things.

@zzzzsleepy8 Yeah, that's probably how it would get done if I was making it out of aluminum, but that doesn't change the fact. That above I said, "Anyone can temper a metal so long as it's not alloy. Then it gets expensive, there is frequencies involved, and usually some extra steps to ensure the product keeps it shape, and is on the cusp of fusion where the material breaks down into liquid state."

Or to mean, "otherwise it will get expensive". Steel: is an alloy of iron, with carbon. Which is a lot easier then say Aluminum, when you say alloy... I think dendrites, which can be found commonly in Titanium. Which... let not talk about tempering that >.< because this isn't a class room, nor is it a metal forum. Steel, is something that is so easy to temper much like cast, and considering most steels are % of carbon, really your tempering the iron so that the carbon and steel at similar rates which results in a more woven structure much like carbon fiber. This also, tends to make the iron more brittle and easier for it to be broken in small just hence why high carbon tool steel chips and doesn't bend and flex.

Lawl at tempering Carbon, XD... Its so robust! Until it meets the slightest impact, like glass..

We weaved it into fibers, to replace fiber glass, and added polymer to allow it to flex.... Withstands heat and its super strong, still cracks when it hits a rock.

[zzzzsleepy8]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

He's talking about induction hardening, which is FASTER than your typical oven heat treating, but requires more intelligence and care to do it properly

And oven tempering works just as well, just takes significantly longer to heat up. Since the temp is coming from the outside in, you have to soak the material at whatever given temperature (tempering is always below 800F, and I've personally never had to go above 450F) for one hour per inch of thickness, and the thicker it is, the slower it needs to cool to be perfect.

The cooling rate should be the same with induction hardening, but the internal temperature should come up much faster since it's essentially being heated from the inside out

The tempering and hardening and aging process differ from alloy to alloy, especially between ferritic and non-ferritic alloys



That's why aftermarket gears are the best!


Also, important note; don't be like FCC and make the bearing holes too far apart lol

Induction hardening isnt suitable for all applications & geometries. They are OK for doing case hardening of cylindrical-like parts, but if you want through harden a complex geometry, you'd best go old fashioned route with ovens. And plus, some tempering processes require precise temperature control and time management. Its just not an advantage to be using induction heating. Ovens are most often used for this as you control the temperature and time directly and more precisely.

Yeah exactly. Higher temperatures are often solutionizing treatment steps. Tempering, even for non-ferritic alloys with lower melting temps, are often still well below liquidus temperatures. 450F is often as high as you need for most alloys.

LoL. I've never owned an FCC PTW. Well its still just a toy company making AEGs, so wouldn't expect precision engineering stuff. They probably source out some of the manufacturing to contractors that probably have the specs off for a certain batch.

[zzzzsleepy8]

Originally Posted by Bandit50

ThunderCactus, someone who understands my level <3

PS, we all know if the bearing had a guide to help the spacing, it would survived and probably been better, as there would have been a specific gap for grease, but.. china.. is a wonderful place that skips things.

I'm sure 'your level' is great with an educational version of Autodesk Inventor. But you actually don't want 'gaps' in between gears for precision gearsets 'for grease' because that introduces backlash. They should be precisely located, with parts machined to tolerance, and you use other strategies like crowning the teeth to optimize contact for a given design tolerance and grease retention.

[Bandit50]

Originally Posted by zzzzsleepy8

I'm sure 'your level' is great with an educational version of Autodesk Inventor. But you actually don't want 'gaps' in between gears for precision gearsets 'for grease' because that introduces backlash. They should be precisely located, with parts machined to tolerance, and you use other strategies like crowning the teeth to optimize contact for a given design tolerance and grease retention.

Pretty sure we're talking Bearings, but thanks. I am glad we can all agree tighter gears are better.

Please read this, you may like it.



I also have a tool design book, but lets no get into that. Right now, I want to do this for fun. I want to get a refresher on the program I am taking, help the community and provide some measurements to track wear on components. I want to try some direct approaches to save efficiency, and some different gear ideas, within the constants.

[zzzzsleepy8]

Originally Posted by Bandit50

Pretty sure we where taking Bearings, but thanks. I am glad we cal all agree tighter gears are better.

Now does this project involve machining your own bearings too (perhaps with a dash of aluminum welding and tempering)? Btw, commercially available bearing parts from reputable manufacturers are fit to tolerance too.

Not sure what the weather is like at your level, but pretty sure I would personally just buy the bearings from a commercial source for what its worth. And then I'm pretty sure I will pick the correct style of bearings and choose whether or not I'd want it to be sealed and internally greased or not. I'd probably go with a sealed one. So again, don't see how greasing bearings becomes an issue I'd have to worry about, or the 'leaving of gaps' for the grease as far as commercially available bearings are concerned.

[Bandit50]

Originally Posted by zzzzsleepy8

Now does this project involve machining your own bearings too (perhaps with a dash of aluminum welding and tempering)? Btw, commercially available bearing parts from reputable manufacturers are fit to tolerance too.

Not sure what the weather is like at your level, but pretty sure I would personally just buy the bearings from a commercial source for what its worth. And then I'm pretty sure I will pick the correct style of bearings and choose whether or not I'd want it to be sealed and internally greased or not. I'd probably go with a sealed one. So again, don't see how greasing bearings becomes an issue I'd have to worry about, or the 'leaving of gaps' for the grease as far as commercially available bearings are concerned.

If I could, 8mm SKF bearings, there made in France and a Swedish company, Not china. Sealed would be nice since airsoft guns do get wet, but that is almost impossible. So, ill go with UK, Element or Kanzen. Probably Kanzen and considering the gear box I linked a page ago... I think it's pretty obvious what I am doing and that I know what I am doing.

However, you can keep telling me I don't, I like it

To add to this train wreck of posts. A sealed bearing has a flaw with this size and that is greasing. Unlike an automotive bearing, where you can take the seal off and pack it with new grease to keep it maintained. An air soft 8mm sealed bearing can not. Thus, I would go with an open bearing because, dry bearings are no good either, and will fail over time. Grease reduces the friction and keeps the balls spinning and at that size redtek is more then enough to repel the water.