Airoft sniper test

[Drache]

our MED is 20 feet for anything shooting up to 400fps with .2 and further for FPS over 400....

[Dracheous]

Originally Posted by FOX_111

MED are mesured in order to have an impact energy of less than 1j. MED should be used for guns shooting 350fps with .25g. In that case, a MED of 10 feets is required to have an impact of 1j at 10feets.

Guns shooting bellow 350fps don't require MED since their impact energy is less than 1j.

Shooting 350 with .25 would be a 400 fps gun with .20's. You saying a 400 fps gun should only have 10ft MED where a 450fps gun should have a 60ft MED? Quite the leap there.

[FOX_111]

Originally Posted by decoy

wank.

If you have nothing interesting to contribute, keep your comments to yourself.

[Drache]

Originally Posted by FOX_111

If you have nothing interesting to contribute, keep your comments to yourself.

dont feed the trolls

[FOX_111]

Originally Posted by Dracheous

Shooting 350 with .25 would be a 400 fps gun with .20's. You saying a 400 fps gun should only have 10ft MED where a 450fps gun should have a 60ft MED? Quite the leap there.

400fps gun shooting .25g require a 20feets MED
450fps gun shooting .30g require a 40feets MED

An 60 feets MED is required for guns shooting 525fps with 0.30g.

There is a widespread misconception about snipers and MED. I often hear that 60feets ish MED for snipers shooting 450fps. It's recycled bullshit used by people that don't really understand how it work. I can't blame them, before doing my research for the clinic, I was in the same fog as them.

[Lawdog]

The idea of a test is kind of neat, but I think it would be low on the priority list. Basic safety, courtesy etc are much more common issues.

Your other problem is that airsoft is a completely unregulated sport, and while there are some common rules of the thumb that are accepted all around, rules vary from field to field, host to host, and game to game. This is a completely non-uniform pursuit, and many people like that about it.

Sha Do runs a very good sniper clinic, and some teams do their own internal training, and some people just have the common sense not to shoot someone who is close with a 450 fps weapon. A uniform approach is impractical and unneccessary. Responsible hosting keeps the issue regulated locally, which works pretty darn well.

As to the original post I don't think any of the subjects suggested for testing have any place in an "overall" sniper rule. Who gets to determine who trusts who. And to be frank if I want to think I am Tom Beringer and sit in a bush and miss my shots all day because I can't estimate range or windage, that is my problem. The only thing the host/community really needs to be concerned about is will I be safe to play with. Anything more is like saying I can't play center in rec hockey unless my slap shot goes X kph.

Ld

[Dracheous]

Fox_111, I think you're CLEARLY misguided on some key issues when researching impact and safe practices. First, even Stalker has been pushing you guys for making sure you chrony with .20's only, there is a huge difference between FPS of a .20 and .30 in the same gun.

Second, even Stalker pushes for 100ft MED on a 450-500 fps gun, I personally would contemplate a shot at 60ft with a 450 gun if I have clear shot of chest/gear, first sign of that round off kilter and injuring player my rags out and I'm walking up to check his status.

Like I've said, I've gotten bleeders and serious welts/bruises that have lasted several weeks from guns shooting under 400 fps, and still think that its really not simply a BA rifle or sniper platform ONLY when the case of MED comes up. A round from a 450-500 fps gun firing .20's at 40 feet is going to do some damage, ask Testtube he had the round embed on his head from a shot made at aprox 35 feet.


EDIT: Agreed 100% with LD, he's saying exactly what I'm trying to say on the concern of "qualifications" to play.

[Sha Do]

The BIG difference between a BA and any other airsoft is the ROF, or more specifically, the lack of a ROF. It was therefore decided a long time ago that a BA was allowed a higher FPS to compensate for the lacking ROF. It was also decided that any BA was allowed 450 FPS with .036 weight BBs. Yeah, 0.20s are what we chrony with now, but no one uses 0.20s in their BA for ballistic reasons (unless the BA is stock, and even then Marushin made 0.29 grand master BBs specifically for Stock BAs).
Anyways, there are those in our community that other people trust implicitly, regardless of what FPS their BA is at.....and that is because those people have been around a fairly long time. No one is going to a complete no body to use a 400 plus FPS airsoft, regardless of what it is. We tell new players who wish to utilize "hot" BAs that the MED with a 450 FPS (wt 0.36) is 200 feet. This is well beyond a safe limit, but it not only challanges the new players, but it also allows them time to build up their repore with the rest of the community while maintaining a "clean" record (refering to not injuring other players with a hot gun).
Everyone has their own opinion of what sniping is in airsoft, and most of the players really don't care, but there are those of us who have been around long enough, and are experienced enough to be allowed to use rather insane FPS with our BAs. Getting good clean kills at over 500 feet while hiding in plain sight, is when sniping comes into its own, and the real threat of a sniper on the battle field looms in the back of everyones mind.
But no one is going to allow people on to their field who has not put in their time, showing the community that they can do this SAFELY.
It is not an eliteist way of thinking......anyone is allowed to host a "hot" game as long as the FPS limit is posted for all to see, and all safety precautions have been taken for player safety, and as long as everyone agrees on a MED, thing should be good.

In terms of other airsoft, there should be a MED for various FPS, but that's for the community to decide.
With that being said, it was the senior airsoft community that decided that we should have a uniform guideline for snipers to follow. Upon completion, they have one year to remain clean before they can "upgrade". If one of the snipers injures someone they are to be reported, and will be publically striped of they certification for one year. This way, a level 3 certified sniper who has invested two years to qualify, goes back to a stock level for a year, and must re quallify each year for the next two years to get back to level 3. But this only works if the community enforces the banned to stock BA limit on that player. It is up to the community as a whole.

Now enough of my ramble...
SHA DO

[SCG48]

Nicely put Sha Do.

I guess someone didnt get their morning coffee.

[Drache]

Personally I always said if you're good enough to sneak up on a deer close enough to spit on it then you're 1/8th there!

[twsmith]

Personally I don't have a real problem with the snipers fps or engagement distance as long as they're within the limits set out in the field rules. What bugs me is when some guy with a sniper rifle stands up just out of AEG range and starts shooting like he's invincible and complaining that people aren't calling their hits. I'd rather the occasional hit weren't called than have some asshat standing there "sniping".

[Drache]

Originally Posted by twsmith

Personally I don't have a real problem with the snipers fps or engagement distance as long as they're within the limits set out in the field rules. What bugs me is when some guy with a sniper rifle stands up just out of AEG range and starts shooting like he's invincible and complaining that people aren't calling their hits. I'd rather the occasional hit weren't called than have some asshat standing there "sniping".

Thats actually happened in a game I was in. The guy with the gas sniper just stood up and the stock AEG couldn't reach him. The "sniper" waited for about 200 rounds and then fired off a single shot that took the AEG owner in the chest. It was funny as hell to watch!

[twsmith]

I know, Busters 2, I remember... I was hiding in the bush watching the entire exchange but I was playing against the "sniper". Next time I'm taking my KJW mk1 carbine. No guarantees on where it hits but it shoots hot so he'd better stay in cover!

Originally Posted by Drache

Thats actually happened in a game I was in. The guy with the gas sniper just stood up and the stock AEG couldn't reach him. The "sniper" waited for about 200 rounds and then fired off a single shot that took the AEG owner in the chest. It was funny as hell to watch!

[Drache]

Originally Posted by twsmith

I know, Busters 2, I remember... I was hiding in the bush watching the entire exchange but I was playing against the "sniper". Next time I'm taking my KJW mk1 carbine. No guarantees on where it hits but it shoots hot so he'd better stay in cover!

The main reason Im switching to a Marksmen! Gas sniper rifles are pissing me off!

[FOX_111]

Originally Posted by Dracheous

Fox_111, I think you're CLEARLY misguided on some key issues when researching impact and safe practices. First, even Stalker has been pushing you guys for making sure you chrony with .20's only, there is a huge difference between FPS of a .20 and .30 in the same gun.

Second, even Stalker pushes for 100ft MED on a 450-500 fps gun, I personally would contemplate a shot at 60ft with a 450 gun if I have clear shot of chest/gear, first sign of that round off kilter and injuring player my rags out and I'm walking up to check his status.

Like I've said, I've gotten bleeders and serious welts/bruises that have lasted several weeks from guns shooting under 400 fps, and still think that its really not simply a BA rifle or sniper platform ONLY when the case of MED comes up. A round from a 450-500 fps gun firing .20's at 40 feet is going to do some damage, ask Testtube he had the round embed on his head from a shot made at aprox 35 feet.


EDIT: Agreed 100% with LD, he's saying exactly what I'm trying to say on the concern of "qualifications" to play.

Oh, I forgot to mention that my fps are mesured with .20g (always use .20g as a benchmark). The BB weight mentionned is relative to the MED, as the BB weight modify the amount of joules transfered on impact.

So let's say you have a 500fps rifle (chronied with .20g). It would shoot at 408fps with 0.30g and with a .30g, an MED of 55feets is required to have an impact of 1j.

MED should be mesured for 1j because it's the general energy needed to break skin.

100feets MED is useless IMO. It's should only be used as a general engagement distance or GED at wich it is generally safe to hit any parts of the body with 450fps.