Fight club custom

[kolumbo69]

Oh I just meant sending it back to DTT...

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by kolumbo69

CBSA should have nothing to do with how a product gets threw for a reputable dealer, furthermore a $3000 product I hope was inspected before it left the retailers shop...

You'll be surprised on what they will or will not do to a package under scrutiny trust me, I went through that shit so many times it's not even funny anymore and sometime when you have a lot of package that was held up at customs for a long time and customer waiting you want to expedite that package ASAP unfortunately maybe in that rush some has been sent out missing the final QC inspection, either way FCC and DTT are very reputable dealers and manufacturers an dthey always take care of their customers.

My suggestion Brad before you mod it is to contact Chris and show him the defect, FCC do honor their warranty if its a defective product.

[mcguyver]

Well, tonight I got to put some time in on the 416. As I dug into it, I found a few more things that needed attention.

The hopup sucked. It now has a modified hopup, and later this week it will have Systema adjuster cushions and the spring is history. Neither the 416 barrel nor the 7.5" factory inner barrel assembly could apply enough hop to a .30G BB. My Systema 10.5" inner barrel assembly was miles ahead in range and consistancy. Like 50+ feet and a tolerance of within 5 fps and not 10 fps. The factory FCC adjusters fit very poorly to the inner barrel, and yet I remember a couple of other hopups I had assembled last fall that I noted fit well.

The 416 lower would not accept a Magpul nor a Troy real trigger guard. It does now.

The dust cover was replaced with a real one I had that I had ground the lock off of. And it stays shut, like it is supposed to.

The motor brushes had the wiring run outside the brush hoods instead of inside the spring track. This is a guaranteed motor failure when the brushes wear and are inable to move due to the friction of rubbing over the brush hoods. The brushes themselves do not appear to have any appreciable silver content. Silver is used to add strength to what is essentially pressed carbon, and as such resist excessive wearing. This is a plus and a minus. On the plus side, it is less likely to wear on the commutator. On the minus side, the brushes themselves will wear very fast and are prone to sustain more arc damage, as well as being brittle and subject to breaking in half. Overall, the minus side has more sway here than the positive. I haven't decided yet if I will change them to Systema 30% silver brushes, but I probably will. The motor that came with the 416 was a 2.5, and it suffers from the same poor fitting brush hoods that make installing a grip a son of a bitch. I also noted that FCC has used metal screws to secure the brush hoods with a little insulating washer. I do not like this at all, and the fate of a FET board is contingent on them staying in place x 4. Systema uses nylon screws, a better, non-conductive option.

The buffer cap was, well, ridiculous. It fit poorly, but this was not limited to FCC brand, a Systema fits just as poorly in this gun. They are both loose on the buffer and will wiggle nearly all the way out with little encouragement. When I removed it, there were 8 shims on the cap, which is about twice as many as the most I have ever seen on any gun. But, FCC had no choice, as 1 extra turn of the buffer tube set it too deep to allow the buffer to be installed with zero shims. The only solution was to replace the FCC cap with a Systema cap.

The only remaining items is to cut the screws for the FCC 416 sights and paint the ends and replace the sun and bevel gears to allow use with other cylinders. This is a bitch both FCC and Systema have to bear. WTF was the point of an M160 in an FCC or an M165 in a Systema? Those avenues should never have been pursued, they were a waste of time, money and resources. FCC could have learned from Systema' mistake there.

The MOE grip is going to go. I may cut a MIAD for it later, who knows, that item was reserved for my other FCC hybrid project.

This of course is all before the the gun has itself even seen 1 round, and reliabilty and performance have yet to be judged. I will say now that FCC is going to be subject to my standards the same as Systema, and the primary factor is going to be performance. Reliability will come over time.

Overall, I am meh on the 416. I was not wowed upon box openning and remained un-wowed after going over the gun. I have a great deal of experience with high-mileage Systema guns, and I am just not certain on the longevity of the FCC, there are quite a few little quirks that I am not sold on yet, like planetary tooth pitch and gear lash, as well as material and finish quality of the geartrain as a whole, from rack to bevel. I am also not yet sold on silicone grease in the cylinder, it doesn't work well in Systema cylinders, and there is very little design difference in the FCC to lead me to believe it will work well in their cylinder.

We shall see.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

Well, tonight I got to put some time in on the 416. As I dug into it, I found a few more things that needed attention.

The hopup sucked. It now has a modified hopup, and later this week it will have Systema adjuster cushions and the spring is history. Neither the 416 barrel nor the 7.5" factory inner barrel assembly could apply enough hop to a .30G BB. My Systema 10.5" inner barrel assembly was miles ahead in range and consistancy. Like 50+ feet and a tolerance of within 5 fps and not 10 fps. The factory FCC adjusters fit very poorly to the inner barrel, and yet I remember a couple of other hopups I had assembled last fall that I noted fit well.

The 416 lower would not accept a Magpul nor a Troy real trigger guard. It does now.

The dust cover was replaced with a real one I had that I had ground the lock off of. And it stays shut, like it is supposed to.

The motor brushes had the wiring run outside the brush hoods instead of inside the spring track. This is a guaranteed motor failure when the brushes wear and are inable to move due to the friction of rubbing over the brush hoods. The brushes themselves do not appear to have any appreciable silver content. Silver is used to add strength to what is essentially pressed carbon, and as such resist excessive wearing. This is a plus and a minus. On the plus side, it is less likely to wear on the commutator. On the minus side, the brushes themselves will wear very fast and are prone to sustain more arc damage, as well as being brittle and subject to breaking in half. Overall, the minus side has more sway here than the positive. I haven't decided yet if I will change them to Systema 30% silver brushes, but I probably will. The motor that came with the 416 was a 2.5, and it suffers from the same poor fitting brush hoods that make installing a grip a son of a bitch. I also noted that FCC has used metal screws to secure the brush hoods with a little insulating washer. I do not like this at all, and the fate of a FET board is contingent on them staying in place x 4. Systema uses nylon screws, a better, non-conductive option.

The buffer cap was, well, ridiculous. It fit poorly, but this was not limited to FCC brand, a Systema fits just as poorly in this gun. They are both loose on the buffer and will wiggle nearly all the way out with little encouragement. When I removed it, there were 8 shims on the cap, which is about twice as many as the most I have ever seen on any gun. But, FCC had no choice, as 1 extra turn of the buffer tube set it too deep to allow the buffer to be installed with zero shims. The only solution was to replace the FCC cap with a Systema cap.

The only remaining items is to cut the screws for the FCC 416 sights and paint the ends and replace the sun and bevel gears to allow use with other cylinders. This is a bitch both FCC and Systema have to bear. WTF was the point of an M160 in an FCC or an M165 in a Systema? Those avenues should never have been pursued, they were a waste of time, money and resources. FCC could have learned from Systema' mistake there.

The MOE grip is going to go. I may cut a MIAD for it later, who knows, that item was reserved for my other FCC hybrid project.

This of course is all before the the gun has itself even seen 1 round, and reliabilty and performance have yet to be judged. I will say now that FCC is going to be subject to my standards the same as Systema, and the primary factor is going to be performance. Reliability will come over time.

Overall, I am meh on the 416. I was not wowed upon box openning and remained un-wowed after going over the gun. I have a great deal of experience with high-mileage Systema guns, and I am just not certain on the longevity of the FCC, there are quite a few little quirks that I am not sold on yet, like planetary tooth pitch and gear lash, as well as material and finish quality of the geartrain as a whole, from rack to bevel. I am also not yet sold on silicone grease in the cylinder, it doesn't work well in Systema cylinders, and there is very little design difference in the FCC to lead me to believe it will work well in their cylinder.

We shall see.

Well Brad, I still think that you should have just returned the items back to the retailer, If you have so many issues with it its obvious you have a flawed product. I presently have 3 Full Factory build rifles and 1 kit with out issues nor do I have to do any "Fluff and Buff" on any of them and some of them have been shot in excess of 50K of bbs in less than a year. I've never been happier other than the day when I got my Tackleberry/prime "Fluff and buff" CQBR.

FCC Rifles are the first PTW base rifle that I owned that I don't have to do anything to them and work great out of the box, that being said are they perfect? no but close, I have NEVER had any issues with their products, service or quality, so much so that I'm endorsing them over stock Systema anyday and their quality speaks for themselves with the amount of players that are very satisfied with their products. Your knowledge on Systema PTW is well respected but the one thing that got me questioning your review is why would you not returned a flawed product and instead voiding the factory warranty by doing the "fluff and buff" on it? and what you post here is pretty much the opposite of almost three dozen other FCC 416D owners that have nothing but great things to say about their 416D rifles.

[mcguyver]

I am really not all that worried about the factory warranty to be honest. If something is going to break, it is not worth my time or expense to send it out when I am likely the most qualified guy in North America to service it anyway. Besides, Systema never offered any warranty to speak of (Wallace's or a retailer's goodwill excepted), and I have had no problem keeping those going for years.

Now, whatever does break, if it does, is not really going to be fixed by replacing the broken item with one of the same, if it is a flaw in materials or design. If not, then no worries.

Besides, I committed to buy one from Chris back in December, and good or bad, I am not going to return it. I will fix it and make it better. But I will update this thread periodically if need be, and good or bad, FCC should heed what I have to say on this matter. I am a service guy, my job is to investigate faults, perform forensics, fix what is broken and keep it from happenning again. FCC is not perfect, nor am I, but together we can find common ground to make their product better. And trust me, it does need improvement.

And I am 150% certain nobody has looked at these rifles from the perspective I approach them with.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

And I am 150% certain nobody has looked at these rifles from the perspective I approach them with.

^^^ THIS ^^^ is exactly where I am seeing the disparity in the opinion of quality of the product in this thread.

Not to say your opinion is invalid, Jay, but I know Brad scrutinizes his products down to the detail outside before usability takes place... as well as after. Whereas I know for yourself, as well as 99% of other users out there, they only care about the product working as it should - particularly since I know you beat your guns pretty hard.

As a service guy and builder myself, I can totally see where Brad is coming from. I have not fully molested an FCC rifle inside and out, but have worked on my PTW extensively, and have been in agreement with Brad's findings, always.

Anyways, my point is simply to say, that neither of you are wrong, and Jay, you should try and see where Brad is coming from as well. It really can help to create a better product at the end of the day, especially when the opinion comes from someone who has dozens of these products go through his hands each year. There is loyalty, and then there is taking constructive criticism when it's offered. This is the best kind of advice/criticism that any product/service provider can receive, as it is positive.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by ILLusion

^^^ THIS ^^^ is exactly where I am seeing the disparity in the opinion of quality of the product in this thread.

Not to say your opinion is invalid, Jay, but I know Brad scrutinizes his products down to the detail outside before usability takes place... as well as after. Whereas I know for yourself, as well as 99% of other users out there, they only care about the product working as it should - particularly since I know you beat your guns pretty hard.

As a service guy and builder myself, I can totally see where Brad is coming from. I have not fully molested an FCC rifle inside and out, but have worked on my PTW extensively, and have been in agreement with Brad's findings, always.

Anyways, my point is simply to say, that neither of you are wrong, and Jay, you should try and see where Brad is coming from as well. It really can help to create a better product at the end of the day, especially when the opinion comes from someone who has dozens of these products go through his hands each year. There is loyalty, and then there is taking constructive criticism when it's offered. This is the best kind of advice/criticism that any product/service provider can receive, as it is positive.

Well I do admit I beat the crap out of my gun but on the other side of the coin If I paid $3K for my toy gun and it has all the issues that Brad got I would certainly return it before I mess around with it especially when the manufacturer are willing to back their products no matter how good you are with repairing you can't beat the knowledge of teh manufacturer. When I received my 2012 PTW and it died after 3 mags trust me Wallace got an earfull after Systema refused to acknowledge the issue and unfortunately he can't do anything about it except sending me another motor. My point is I'm not doubting Brad's expertise in the matter but in his decision to fix the issue itself instead and not telling the guys at FCC or in this case Chris at DTT, both of them have excellent CS and coms. To be fair Brad's issue with the 416 is the first I've heard and also the first FCC have heard even from their more hard core user in Sweden and Europe. They are listening and they(FCC) are constanly changing their design to better and distanced themselves from Systema. The method they test their products is in the field and not in the factory, there are limitations as to what they can or cannot produce due to firearms law in HK but they always try to make the best products for example the motor, using more silver in the brushes is good however the more its used the faster the contact on the rotor is going to be worn.
Brad may take the details very seriously and he certainlybreak it down to the last part while guys like me will take the performance factor very seriously that is why we have a constructive disagreement if you will about the quality of this FCC product. In any case both of us have a very different constructive review or maybe Brad just got a lemon, as I stated before I have RS and Systema parts in my 416 that fit with no issue, I got FCC Built rifles that has been shot in excess of 50K rounds with out an issue except missing fake body pins, no issue with buffer tube fitments nor do I have issues fitting Systema cylinders in my torque or speed gear box set. I mean buffer tube is buffer tube and I'm sure Systema didn't make that much of a difference in their cylinder design especially the diameter and the CNC body is byfar the best one I have seen in almost over 23 years playing airsoft, there are HD pictures and video of other owners 416D from FCC with Systema gearbox in this review not just mine with almost a 1000 units sold world wide (kits and full rifles) without issue and all of a sudden Brad have all these issue with them it sound quite strange and unusual, if it were someone else other than Brad this would have been turned into a systema fan boy shit slinging fest. There are small issues with motors and MOE grips etc but not in the capacity that has been reviewed here, my 416 with the MOE grips was lost in deep snow while playing three days after i got the rifle for 10 minutes before it was found and all I did was shook off the excess snow and its shooting fine.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

And I am 150% certain nobody has looked at these rifles from the perspective I approach them with.

I'm sure nobody aside from you have done it, but I'm pretty sure no one has used the rifle like the way I do. lol

[ILLusion]

Consider, that Brad hasn't even fired the gun yet, versus someone like yourself who probably took it right to the field and started using it right away. There's the difference. His expectations of the very little things are quite different from an end user.

Likewise, where I specialize in 1911's & Hi-Capas, I work on a little things in the guns that end users would never care to think about, nor know to look for it till 5k or 10k rounds later, an issue would have popped up because of it. Not a single one of my pistols are ever fired, before I've completely gutted it and built it up to what I would expect to be "acceptable." (and you CAPS guys know how many times I've showed up at a match, firing a gun that's never had a round shot through it before... LOL)

Brad's not saying his gun wasn't working right out of the box. He made no mention of things blowing up. He's just saying that in his particular application, several parts weren't compatible (due to non-standard dimensions), and there were a number of annoyances that he didn't find acceptable to his standard.

His point still stands, that he can tell FCC or DTT about the issues, but if he's one of the most qualified technicians in North America to get it fixed anyways (he's not saying he couldn't get it fixed... he's perfectly confident in doing so), then he might as well do it himself. At the end of the day, he just wants to get THIS gun up and running. I'm sure DTT and FCC have, or will, see this thread and see what issues he has with it. Neither him, nor myself have any doubt otherwise. It could very well be the first time they've heard of these issues, but it's also the first time Brad's got this kit in his hands.

[mcguyver]

I ahev spoken to Chris about it. I have not spoken to FCC. I don't expect that I ever would. I never spoke to Kumi neither, not like she would have cared really anyways. But that doesn't mean FCC can't listen to what I have said and contact me if they need more info.

I was pretty thorough with this gun, but there is more to come. I have not openned the gearbox yet, but it is going to happen.

These issues are mainly small. There are a couple that could become huge if the circumstances were right, or time and tide take their toll. None of them are difficult to remedy at the manufacturing stage, some are tolerance issues, some are simply QC.

I may even try to game the 416 this week. Then I will have a feel for performance.

[Karma_]

Thanks Brad for the very thorough review. While it's disappointing to hear a customer who isn't satisfied with a product, it provides very important feedback to the retailer as well as the manufacturer about areas that need to be improved upon. I have had many customers who have been thrilled by their FCC products and a few who have had some problems. While I would love to hear that everyone has the same great experience, knowing there are areas of improvement helps FCC in making their products better. And that for me is the big difference between Systema and FCC. In my experience, FCC listens to the feedback put out there and makes the changes necessary. They offer a 3 month warranty on their products because they are confident in them. These are the main reasons why I promote FCC over Systema these days. Their reputation is extremely important to them so don't think that this information is going to be ignored.

Keep the discussion going.

[Win@FCC]

Hello Mr. Mcguyver:

On behalf of FCC, we are highly appreciate your valuable feedback but deeply sorry to learn your bad experience. Please accept our apology.

I have well noticed the topic discuss here, we have sold lots of 416 complete rifle / set but have not receiving so many issues as mentioned. However, I believed back and forth comments here may not resolve the case. We are open to discuss with you, may you please contact us at service@ptwcustom.com? Our customer service team will follow up your issue and exchange if photos on situations mentioned. Thank you

Await your email soon.

Best Regards
Team FCC

[destinys_curse]

the question i have it is have anyone talk to the FCC team for warranty service?
I have they gave me proper directions and support.
Fight Club Custom is so far the only manufacturer that so far that offers a warranty or even SUPPORT for their product. Yes a good retailer would help out but thats out of their own pocket.
so far I have yet to see a retailer that is able to go back to the manufacturer and get warrantied parts.
I have own a PTW for many years now and first time using their product and i am very happy.
mcguyver you have even worked on my gun before. I'm pretty hard on my stuff. I have yet to have a a failure.
In closing contact the retailer and or Fight club custom where you got the product from. They are good people and willing to help if you give them the chance.

[ceazer]

Fight Club Custom is so far the only manufacturer that so far that offers a warranty or even SUPPORT for their product.


Kwa does offer a warranty and there support can be very helpfull at times too. Probably not comparible to fcc but still good to have when its needed

[Javidan]

This is honestly the first time ive seen such terrible reviews on the 416 platform. I own 3 FCC rifles and beaten them up bad and have never had any issues, especially the motor. Ive gone through multiple motors including ones with the tackleberry mod as well. Honestly If i ever had this many issues with a gun i would have returned it and gotten it warrantied. FCC is really good for that.