First Airsoft Rifle Purchase! (PolarStar DMR?)

[BenG]

You can bet on it, ajustable FPS goes both ways, up and down, as thundercactus said if I allow you to change your fps then everyone can change their fps, suppose I trust you, I know you wont change your fps above the limit, I dont trust everyone not too which makes it unsafe, therfore I cant let you do it. Secondly everyone has lapses in memory or simply forget to think in the thick of things, ive seen people get shot continue to play for about 15-30 seconds then go oh I was shot sorry guys and call themselves out, thats good sportsmanship, your running and you pop around a corner and just pull the trigger reflexively and injure someone, again as thunder said you forget to swap weights or 2 bbs get stuck in the chamber instead of 1, and on the topic of switching weights, joule creep going either way is so wildly unpredictable it isnt wise, or responsible to bet peoples saftey on your ability to predict the joule creep at every level of PSI that allows you to operate at safe energy levels, a difference of 1 PSI could throw off the amount of joule creeping you think you are doing significantly and the preasure gauges arnt exactly precise, compound that with your adrenaline pumping, and lets be honest we are all in a rush to keep playing your going to make a mistake and your going to hurt someone, Frankly I think your over ambitious and your ignoring tried and true advice from just between thunder and I over a decade of building guns and twice that playing, your attitude is dangerous, and irresponsible. Abide by the rules, if you think they are unfair and can come up with a better solution make one that can be implemented consistently, and tested with ease.

as far as actually solving your problem, get and HPA setup like you want, get a DMR build thingy and get an bingo HPA mp7 the mags are tiny and the mp7 weighs nothing put an air thirsty wide bore on the mp7 so that when you unplug your hose from the DMR and into the mp7 the mp7 shoots under the limit, that way you arnt doing complex maths swapping bbs blah blah blah all your doing is changing a QD hose. In all seriousness the difference between 1j and 1.6j in terms of range is not that great, my 416 shooting 0.97j hits 260ft Thunders m14 shooting 1.54j shoots 280ft it is more but thats a difference of over 100fps the difference between 420fps and 450fps is so tiny its not worth reinventing the rule book over, investing large sums of money in a one way regulator etc.

Originally Posted by PandaAirsoft

@BenG:
Really? You would ban someone from whatever you were hosting for taking actions not to hurt someone. What would you say? "You didn't shoot him at full power. It should have made him bleed at the range, and it didn't make him bleed. Get off my field!" And would the victim complain, "I expected that to hurt alot, but it didn't. Please ban"? I completely disagree with the way you would handle this.

Don't worry, I'm quite familiar with basic physics. I said to decrease BB weight to decrease energy due to the effect of joule creep as ThunderCactus references later in the thread. Losing range and accuracy is fine, since the purpose is for transitioning to close range. Also technically, it's not the impact energy(J) that does damage, it's the impact power(J/s). Like how a push does less damage than a punch with the same energy. So from that, the article which I read along time ago now stating very high fps with similar energy does more damage, seems to make sense. For projectiles which penetrate its target, the terminal ballistics is alot more complicated and involve a balance with momentum.

That 30 feet would be quite useful if the target is 30 feet or less out of range, especially if I'm in range of that target. It would be great if I could easily transition between a gun like yours and his. Also, I haven't sold anything.

@Crowin
Quite quick to jump to conclusions there, yeah? What exactly leads you to believe I have a scary lack of knowledge? Or, what have I said that's incorrect?

@ThunderCactus
Just to clarify, is the point of a chrono test at a field to find the muzzle energy you will be shooting for the duration of the game? Or, is the point of a chrono test to make sure the muzzle energy is within regulation for the duration of the game? I feel it makes the most sense that it's the latter. Correct me if I'm wrong. Additionally for GBB's, is the purpose of the spot check to make sure the muzzle energy is the same as before or is it to make sure the muzzle energy remains below the regulation?

Not exactly, if upstream pressure is constant, downstream pressure can still be decreased or then increased back to upstream pressure, though it can't ever be increased above the upstream pressure. Even though FPS can change, the upstream pressure sets a max FPS.

[PandaAirsoft]

@ThunderCactus

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

I don't care if you're adjusting your muzzle energy between 1j and 1.6j in a game with a 1.6j limit, I don't want anyone changing their muzzle energy at all.

I understand everything you're saying but, why does it matter if people change their muzzle energy if they can only do so under the limit? Say for the sake of argument, the limit is 1.6J and it is impossible to raise muzzle energy above 1.6J, would it still be a problem if the muzzle energy is adjustable from 0 to 1.6J? Why would it be a problem?

I'm really asking just sort of for academic reasoning, in a sense. It's not actually about people getting upset, since yeah everyone signed up to be potentially shot at 1.6J. If allowed the choice, I would prefer to be shot at 1J over being shot at 1.6J by other people. So it feels very strange that lowering muzzle energy is seen as a problem.

Also, don't you feel having to change weapons detracts from realism? If in a real scenario where an enemy wanders in close proximity to the muzzle of your DMR, you wouldn't worry about causing too much damage to the enemy and spend vital time switching to a side arm.

In addition, I could permanently lower my muzzle energy far below limit but, since I cannot increase back to limit, I'd rather not put myself in a disadvantage.

@BenG

Originally Posted by BenG

your running and you pop around a corner and just pull the trigger reflexively and injure someone

But, what makes that different than holding a long range weapon, ready to snipe, an enemy pops around a corner and reflexively pulling the trigger? It's probably much faster and easier to reflexively turn a knob before firing over, switching weapons and firing.

Originally Posted by BenG

Frankly I think your over ambitious and your ignoring tried and true advice from just between thunder and I over a decade of building guns and twice that playing, your attitude is dangerous, and irresponsible.

Obviously, I'm not ignoring what you're saying if I'm currently discussing that with you. The exact opposite, really. And, so you think asking about and questioning something is dangerous and irresponsible, huh? This point, I disagree with you on a fundamental level. To question, is the basis of science and progress. It is to be encouraged.

Your solution still requires carrying a second "primary" weapon and having to do a switch. I think an AEG would probably be better if I was to do that though. Also, no new regulator is required, only 2 normal regulators. A locked upstream regulator and a variable downstream regulator.

[ThunderCactus]

[quote=PandaAirsoft;1996682]@ThunderCactus

Originally Posted by PandaAirsoft

I understand everything you're saying but, why does it matter if people change their muzzle energy if they can only do so under the limit? Say for the sake of argument, the limit is 1.6J and it is impossible to raise muzzle energy above 1.6J, would it still be a problem if the muzzle energy is adjustable from 0 to 1.6J? Why would it be a problem?

I have no guarantee that it can only be adjusted under the limit, and the amount of time I'd have to spend verifying such a system in a big game would stretch chrono times out by over an hour. It takes long enough to chrono everyone with a fixed velocity and lock HPA regulators. Now I also have to bring a gun through multiple pressures, verify it can't be bypassed, and test the gun on several weights to make sure it's not joule creeping. It's a lot of work on the admin side for a problem that, quite frankly, nobody cares about.

Originally Posted by PandaAirsoft

I'm really asking just sort of for academic reasoning, in a sense. It's not actually about people getting upset, since yeah everyone signed up to be potentially shot at 1.6J. If allowed the choice, I would prefer to be shot at 1J over being shot at 1.6J by other people. So it feels very strange that lowering muzzle energy is seen as a problem.

I would prefer getting shot at 1j up close as well, but just because it's a preference doesn't mean I'm going to be upset if someone shoots me in the left butt cheek from 2" away at 1.6j. I've had to shoot people in the face from 5ft before with a 1.6j gun. Yeah it sucks and yeah I didn't particularly WANT to shoot them in the face, but I had no other target and no other opportunity to hit anything else.
Sure it hurts, but people understand WHY it happens and no one gets upset about it unless you're bonus balling them.

Originally Posted by PandaAirsoft

Also, don't you feel having to change weapons detracts from realism? If in a real scenario where an enemy wanders in close proximity to the muzzle of your DMR, you wouldn't worry about causing too much damage to the enemy and spend vital time switching to a side arm.

Not necessarily. If you had the choice of clearing a house with an M16A3 or a pistol, you'd go with the pistol every time.
If we were engaging outdoors at realistic ranges, you'd actually want a long barreled rifle for increased accuracy and velocity.
Outdoors, yes, it's unrealistic, but it's a safety concern since DMRs and bolt action rifles often have higher MEDs.
And if 1.3 seconds is too long of a time to draw your pistol, I'm curious to know how you plan on dropping 20-30psi from your regulator in a shorter time span?

Originally Posted by PandaAirsoft

In addition, I could permanently lower my muzzle energy far below limit but, since I cannot increase back to limit, I'd rather not put myself in a disadvantage.

If you just run your gun at 350fps, you lose about 20ft of maximum range, and a bit more time on target. But you can use it with a clear conscience that you're not hurting anyone too badly.
OR you can run it at 1.5-1.6j and realize that nobody cares that they're getting shot at the muzzle energy up close as long as you're not bonus balling them.


You're arguing a moot point here. Your dedication to wanting to not hurt people is commendable, but this is *REALLY* a non issue.
But in all seriousness, a gun with adjustable muzzle energy is never knowingly going to be allowed on any field in Canada for all the reasons I've stated. So please just drop the subject, and just run your muzzle energy like everyone else does.
Either run below 1.6j (or whatever your local max limit is), or run a DMR setup above that and just switch to a pistol or SMG to targets within your MED.

If the person you're shooting AT is offended that they're being hit up close in a tender area, then it's THEIR responsibility to protect themselves.
Sure, PPE can get costly, but you don't go paintball with a pair of $5 safety glasses just because you can't afford a face mask. And you don't get the whole field to drop their fps down to 300 just because you can't take a hit like an airsofter.
So my professional advice is to be like everyone else, and just try to aim away from people's faces. But don't worry about smacking them in the thighs, cause it just goes with the sport.

[PandaAirsoft]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

You're arguing a moot point here. Your dedication to wanting to not hurt people is commendable, but this is *REALLY* a non issue.

Thanks, but I'm not sure what dedication you're speaking of. I'm just casually posting on a public forum. Being a casual public forum, I don't think something needs to be a serious issue for it to be discussed either. Even if it's a tiny problem, the solution seems so straight forward and simple I'm curious why it isn't accepted.

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

I have no guarantee that it can only be adjusted under the limit, and the amount of time I'd have to spend verifying such a system in a big game would stretch chrono times out by over an hour.

2 regulators. Locked upstream regulator and a variable downstream regulator. Downstream regulator cannot increase pressure above upstream regulator, and so does not need to be considered.

There would be no difference in chrono procedure or lock efficacy. Lock upstream regulator as usual and chrono as usual. I don't see anything new to consider.

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

If you had the choice of clearing a house with an M16A3 or a pistol, you'd go with the pistol every time.

But like you said, an M16 length barrel is useless. In airsoft, a CQB length barrel is just as effective as a "typical" DMR length barrel, right?

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

I'm curious to know how you plan on dropping 20-30psi from your regulator in a shorter time span?

The regulator has a knob for adjustment. Add incremental clicks to the knob or a stopper at -20psi, for quick accurate adjustment.

[ThunderCactus]

I stand by all my previous points. 10/10 would not allow.