Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
Full stop right there. I can't believe you said something like that. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge of the scientific method or scientific evidence would crucify you in a debate if you made a statement like that...
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Under normal circumstances i would agree with you. Unfortunately these are not normal circumstances.
Try downloading the MSDS for Gorilla Glue. You will see that the MSDS has "trade secret" written exactly where the ingredient everyone wants to know about should be. You will see this with many products.
It is perfectly legitimate, in my view, to doubt or question any lab report and its claims. In fact, it was made clear by players and game field owners that even if the report was prepared in a more conventional manner they would still question and be filled with scepticism. This is just part of human nature when something new and innovative hits the market.
The point is that these persons (includingmyself) have acquired the BBBMAX and tried them. These "field trials" have accumulated tons of empirical evidence from all over the world (including Taiwan, Japan, EU and USA). Players are crazy about them because the BBBMAX are:
(1) As close as you can possibly want a bb to be perfectly spherical;
(2) No bubbles;
(3) Even density;
(4) small, fast and accurate;
when compared to plastic or bioplastic bbs.
**Bottom line is that even though i agree with you, i must admit that in the face of hands-on positive experience questioning the "format" (and therefore the credibility) of the LEVANTE LABS report is simply an exercise in academic discussion. The real world results are all that matter to us on the playing field. In this sense, the LEVANTE LAB report and BIOVAL's claims are largely irrelevant.**
A lot of Europeans contacted BIOVAL and LEVANTE LABS. The Fiduciary representing LEVANTE stated on letterhead that items were omitted so that the competition would not have access to persons or materials. Also, that they do not want to be flooded with requests for information from the international airsoft community and above all do not want to be dragged into any issues.
Lastly, how you intend to investigate this "marketing conspiracy theory" (lol) is very interesting. Switzerland, is the most secretive society in the world where violations of privacy, company requests for confidentiality and banking secrecy carries a jail term and a fine. You will need to some heavy duty proof to substantiate your claims, tests and opinions.
Conclusion:
(1) To refute (or even accept) the Levante paper you must have an independent lab run the testing. That includes a CO2 cannon and all the bbs they tested. Repeatability is the only real question mark. If this is not possible then we will all want to see your report. No easy task and a lot of us have found it to be to expensive to do. It is much easier to spend $/€ to buy the BIOVAL BBBMAX and form our own opinions.
(2) In the final analysis, we as players don't give a hoot about the LEVANTE LABS test, BIOVAL's claims or any test for/againts either. We have formed our opinions based on tests in the field. Empirical evidence accumulated in many different parts of the world and in many different environments holds up better than any lab test.
The evidence from the field is that the BIOVAL BBBMAX is a great product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
Many here have used other BioVAL BB products here in the past and not been satisfied with the results and thats their opinion, so you in turn have to respect that experience and opinion. Also, most of what was posted at Arnies in that thread was 95% opinion with about 5% fact and opinion does not constitute fact.
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This discussion is specifically about the BIOVAL BBBMAX and not BIOVAL's other BBB products. Stating that "other BIOVAL BBB" products have left players unsatisfied in Canada is a little hard to believe frankly. This sweeping statement is a little beyond simple opinion and hardly based on facts. The BIOVAL product line is innovative and IMO (and that of my fellow players) performs better than the rest. The fact that BIOVAL BBB are in stock in any shop for such a short time is testament to their quality.
Furthermore, attributing special ballistic qualities (exterior and impact) to the BBBMAX based on speculation about materials, hardness etc is somewhat simplistic. They are better for specific physical properties. They are polished to perfection (better than any plastic), they are of even density, and they lack air bubbles inside. These are facts not opinion that translate into better ballistic properties. Its as simple as that.
Now my question is since BIOVAL made a great bb (BBBMAX), isn't simply a natural knee-jerk reaction by some producers to attempt to discredit them for this achievement? BIOVAL is doing a great service for airsoft spending time and money on developing great products for us and we as players thank them for it. They are sticking thier neck out with claims and tests which is more than i can say for the rest ofd the pack.
Moreover, the Dept of Natural Resources Washington State have approved the BIOVAL BBB products for use on public land. This alone is an "A" for effort to BIOVAL.
Lastly, we are all waiting for the BIOVAL BBBDIMPLEX bb, aka the Golf Ball BBB. They claim this to be the cats a$$ of bbs. We shall see. We will all buy a bag and test it ourselves.
In this sense this dead horse continues to be clubbed to death.