Elitists -Newbies, please read
 

This is a long read... but I hope it's relevant to what seems to be the current atmosphere on ASC.

The term “elitist” seems to be getting thrown around a hell of a lot on ASC these days. In the last six months I've been called an elitist more times than I have since I joined -actually, I think every instance has occurred in the last six months.

In every single instance, I've been called an elitist by a newbie who has been involved in the community less than a year. And in every single instance, it's either because (with a couple of exceptions -more on this later) I won't recommend anything below Tokyo Marui or Classic Army as a starter gun, or because I won't recommend cheap equipment as starter equipment (also more on this later). I am in no way alone in this group. I can think of more than a dozen members who have been called “elitists” for the same reasons.

In general, there's a couple of things I want to point out here. First and foremost, is that myself and many other players have been at this for a few years at least, and possibly a decade or more in some cases. We know what equipment is out there. We know what is required to play. We know what makes a good AEG a good AEG, what makes a good LBV (load-bearing-vest) a good LBV. We know why you can't use a $10 wall transformer to charge batteries. How do we know? From experience. We've been there. We've cooked $50 batteries using cheap chargers. We've had our guns fail at games because it has shitty internals. We've had to run around all day in wholly uncomfortable vests because we didn't spend the extra dough on a lighter, more flexible set-up. Nearly every game I go to, I see someone roll an ankle because they're wearing runners instead of proper boots. We've been there. Learn from our experience.

Some newbies come here and say they only want to invest $150 in a gun.. and that they only want to do it to “try out the sport” in case they don't like it, or a host of other excuses. Ok... I think at that point, there is a distinct misunderstanding of what airsoft is.

Airsoft is NOT just the gun. It's the whole environment, the experience, the putting on a set of BDU's, boots, tacvest, and going out and immersing yourself in the game. It's that “Oh, fuck!” moment when your mag runs dry in the middle of a firefight. It's the crawling through dense bush, in the rain, to try and outflank your opponents. It doesn't have to be milsim... but a bunch of people running around in shorts and T-shirts with airsoft guns are not playing airsoft. They're playing tag with BB's. Nothing more. The gun is a big part of it, but it's just the beginning.

Now, you don't have to invest in all that upfront. It's great if you can, but not all that realistic. We understand that. We're never going to flame a newbie because they don't want to drop $200 on a vest for their first game. If, after 10 they still don't want to... well... you're a cheapass.

So this comes back to the gun (and, being honest, the gun is what initially attracts most people to airsoft). This has been said time and time again here on ASC -in airsoft, you get what you pay for.

There is usually a line that separates an activity from being something you do with a toy, to being an actual hobby. I'll use radio controlled planes (another one of my hobbies) to illustrate my point. You can go to The Source, and get one of those little foam MiGs with two little propellers on them for about $30. They come with the 2-channel controller -which transmits on the interference-prone 27Mghz “general toy” band-, betteries, etc. They're a complete bitch to control and almost useless for anything other than watching a little semi-scale plane nosedive into the ground. If you're playing with one of those, you're not a hobby RC flier.
Or, you can go to a real hobby shop, and spend $150 on a radio controlled plane, another $40 on a motor and ESC, another $60 on a battery or two, and $250 or more on a proper, 6-channel 72-Mhz or 2.4 Ghz Spread-Spectrum controller and receiver. You can then spend money on the supplies needed to actually assemble the plane. And for those who aren't familiar with R/C, what I listed is an estimated minimum investment. You could spend over $1,000 on the transmitter alone.

What's my point here? My point is, although both those two things technically allow you to play with a radio controlled aeroplane, that's where the similarities stop. They're like night and day.

That is what it's like comparing a shitty, $100 airsoft gun to proper airsoft equipment. Cheap airsoft equipment is exactly that -cheap. It won't last as long. It will most likely malfunction in the middle of a game. You're not going to enjoy using it near as much as proper, more expensive equipment. Hell, it isn't even playing airsoft. You wouldn't show up to an R/C flying event with one of those crappy little planes from The Source... so why would you show up to an airsoft event with a crappy clearsoft gun? It's not airsoft anymore than that shitty little plane is R/C flying.

Back to what I said about not recommending anything below TM/CA (with noted exceptions), there are reasons for that. Bone stock, I put nearly 25,000 rounds through my CA and never had it fail. It wasn't stock after that because I upgraded -not because of failure. I've never had any TM gun I've owned fail (some people have -it's not a perfect world). The external quality on CA guns is miles above anything cheaper, hands down. I wish I'd spent the $100 or so on the clearsoft that I first bought toward saving for a CA instead. Now the average Classic Army gun, new in box, will run you around $600. TM is usually a little less. Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Fuck'in eh.

With the noted exceptions, I'll throw in a few JG models. I have a JG P90 and it's awesome. So if anyone was looking for a less expensive SMG, I'd recommend that. But even then, a JG is going to cost you around $350.

A lot of people recommend Krakens. I won't, simply because a simple search on ASC and a few minutes of reading will tell you they have about a 50% failure rate within the first 2,000 rounds. If you're trigger happy you can go through that in a single game.

If a gun breaks, do you know how to fix it? Do you know what parts you'll need? Do you want to invest the time and effort into doing so? Most new players don't want to be bothered with that. Perfectly understandable. So why not invest some extra money into something that has more like a 5% failure rate? Get a cheaper gun later when you have one that you know will shoot every single time you pick it up (for me, that's my trusty bone-stock TM MP5).

I'm going leave the G&G Halfbreeds out of this because most of the reasons I don't like them aren't directly related to quality.

More on equipment-
I hear a lot of people talk about how small batteries are useless, especially in upgraded guns. That's incorrect. Cheap small batteries are useless, especially in cheap guns. My G36 shoots around 360 FPS, and I can play all day on a single small battery. I also sure as hell don't use $20 batteries. A cheaper gun is going to be harder on the battery as well because, generally, the shimming is poorer (meaning more resistance in the mechbox), they're greased out the ass with cheap, thick goop instead of proper grease (meaning more resistance in the mechbox), and they're usually not wired as well, leading to more electrical resistance.

A large battery may cost upward of $60 or more. A cheap charger may cook that battery. It's worth it to spend a little extra on a good charger that you know won't nuke your nice new $60 battery.

A good vest will be light, flexible, comfortable, and allow you to move. I shit you not, sometimes I play and forget I'm wearing my vest.
A good pair of boots will cost you a lot of money -but they're worth it. My boots cost me about $120, and they're the most comfortable piece of footwear I own. I can run around all weekend in a forest with them and at the end of it my feet don't hurt one bit. Try doing that in running shoes.

Ok.. now I'm going to move onto the use of the term “elitist”. An elitist is not someone who spends a lot of money on gear they actually use because cheaper gear is incapable of supporting what they do. I'll use my tacvest as an example. It's not an overly expensive one (cost about $200, plus maybe another $75-$100 for all the pouches). In a typical game, this is what I carry on me: 6-7 magazines, a canteen of water, first aid kit, pen and notepad (don't ask about that one), snacks, a spare battery or two, a BB loader, extra BB's, barrel plug, and any other required equipment for the game such as a kill rag. I can't comfortably carry all that with a cheap vest. The vest is also MOLLE (it's webbed so I can move pouches around), which means I can reconfigure it depending on my load out. As such, based on my experience, I will not recommend a cheap vest to a new player. As far as I'm concerned, they're too limited. This does not make me an elitist.

Likewise with my gun. My G36 has given me 4+ years of service with very little grief.. and I'm constantly reading about people having their cheap guns fail. Hell, based on my own experience with cheap guns (Army Armament R85), I also will not recommend a cheap gun. The TM and CA guns I've owned (and the JG P90.. can't leave that little gem out!) have worked great, so why would I recommend something that, based on a lot of peoples' experience, is known to be problematic? Experienced players have the knowledge to fix these lower quality guns (and often have enough spare parts lieing around they can do it at no cost). New players don't generally have either.This does not make me an elitist.

What that makes me, and anyone else who recommends more expensive gear, are experienced people trying to spare new players from waisting the money we have already waisted on cheap equipment that won't do what they want.

I ask that you new guys consider that, and the other things I've written here, next time you think we're being elitist pricks for telling you that you need to invest more then $200 to get into airsoft.

---
As for any discussion that may go on here, please keep it civilized.

Well said.

Extremely well written Kalnaren. I don't think there is a single thing in there that I disagree with.

All new accounts should have to read this thread in its entirety, and be tested on it, before the account is active.

this should be displayed on a non closable window for 10 minutes for each new member that join here...

This is just my own personal opinion on the matter. The way I see it is, more often than not a lot of new users (not all) show up at the door with questions, but in their minds they already have the answer (or at least the answer they want). When they do no receive the answer they want (reinforcement to their own answer that is) they get a little bent out of shape and the internet pee pees come out and the term elitist gets tossed around.

I have to agree with the vast majority of what kalnaren said. Very well said. Yes, we do have elitist pricks on the forum. We have them in every hobby. To them, unless you spend top-dollar on the most expensive equipment out there, it's crap. But for the most part, the guys giving advice on this forum don't fall into this category.

However, where I disagree - to a point - is with CA and TM being the lowest end guns a noob should start with. A few years back when all clone guns that rolled out of China were utter garbage, this may have been the case. I think that landscape is shifting, and many of the older, more experienced players are not seeing it because they're too set in their ways.

I personally have had great experience with JG guns so far. My JG MP5 was the most rugged little gun I owned. I TRIED to kill it. I really did. I tortured the shit out of it but it wouldn't die. My Echo 1 / JG P90 is another gem, as kalnaren already stated. The gun is 100% stock, shoots straight, far and consistently. My JG 416 also took one hell of a beating before the mechbox finally cracked at about the 40 000 round mark. And I know quite a few trigger-happy local JG owners who have been rocking stock guns for a couple of seasons and they're still going strong. JG guns from a fews years back may have been plagued with problems, but the current models they produce I believe are very suitable starter guns.

Yeah, there are still lemons, and that rate is higher than with a higher quality gun, but we have to give Jing Gong credit for making huge strides in the quality control department. Some have problems, but that's the same for all brands. Take a look around these forums and you have people with a massive hate on for CA guns (based on their experience with models from a few years back) and will outright pontificate that CA is crap regardless how good they may be today.

So yes, in principal I agree with everything in the original post. We have a modest difference on what we consider an acceptable starter gun. Otherwise, that post is gold.

Ah the good ol'days of buy a CA and put a TM mechbox in it.

back on topic now.

This is also something I was thinking of and does indeed happen a lot. I think that's partially because they don't understand exactly what airsoft is, how it's played, etc.

That's another reason I'll always recommend new players come out to a game before buying any equipment.

Moved and stickied.

Hopefully this can help new players understand we aren't just out to crap on their parade.

very well put! thank you! :)

I guess these days it's OK for people to post up their problems with Crosman guns they bought on sale at Wal-Mart. Next year, there be entire threads devoted to the subtle nuances of tactical straws, for those that don't think it necessary to spend $29.95 on those high-end elitist guns. It's all a matter of perspective.

I'm perfectly happy being called an elitist. I expend alot of time and effort getting there, and for someone to call me that is a great amount of personal gratification. Anyone who has met me in-person or on the field knows what I'm about, and quite frankly what some punk thinks from across the country doesn't really make a difference.

I agree about JG. I didn't/generally don't say too much about them because, other than my P90, I have very little experience with them. Actually I think the P90 and G36 (which, IMO, isn't anywhere near as good as their P90) are the only two ones of their guns I've actually handled.

The flipside of that though is that you're not likely to tell me my CA36 -that works perfectly fine, shoots straight and accurate- is a piece of shit simply because it's not a $2,000 gun. It certaintly might not be up to what you're used to, but I wouldn't consider you an elitist because you like to use more expensive equipment.

Just for the record I still have the 1st gen Classic army G3 body and for the record they are awesome BUT their second and third run product there are some really brittle and fragile bodies, maybe it's just the new material they use. on the flip side there are times where I almost throw my BNIB factory QC Systema PTW against the wall, my most reliable AEG are still my King Arms variety and my inokatsu M60's

Kalnaren, Well written

Dude, your gun SUCKS!!!!

:snipe:

:D

I didn't want you to feel left out or anything.

I read every word, and I agree. I learned from hockey the difference between a $120 dollar pair of skates and a $300 pair of skates. I also learned the difference between a $20 wood stick and a $80 composite stick.

Other than that I don't know what else to say.

I'm still a wood stick elitest in hockey. None of that composite BS.

What people like kalnaren push in terms of gear and guns here isn't elitism. Its smart advice on products that are actually worth the cash.

While i do agree with most of this, i also agree with crunchmeister. A well tuned, or upgraded JG, CYMA, ect can perform just as good as a TM. While one may take more work to get to that point, it will still be similar.

Out of the box, theres no question; but since everyone here just loves to buy airsoft related things, they usually dont stay stock long anyways.

Just my .02

Have you tried composite? The sticks are lighter you can handle the puck better and you can get under the puck much easier.


I understand the gear thing, I play hockey cheap skates work but when you are playing for two hours your feet will tell you the difference. I don't have a problem spending the money, I'll buy a vest but I am not going to spend $1000 for one, the amount of time that I am actually going to be playing it would be not worth it. As the OP mentioned about having light vests vs. a heavy vest. Maybe I like heavy vests. I play goalie in hockey, I wear 20 pounds of gear for 90 minutes no breaks, I'm just saying I do know there is cheap crap that breaks easy, but there is cheap crap that the only thing wrong with it is that it is too heavy. Or maybe a pouch is in the wrong place.

You said about using a wooden stick that may only cost $20 I have a composite stick that costs $80, I like it because it is light. I know that your wooden one is heavier. Does that make wood bad?


TL;DR,

There is cheap and there is expensive one may be made of stronger lighter materials but the other one may be made out of heavier materials that are just as strong. Only applies to gear. I don't know enough about airsoft guns to say anything.

If you ask me, I feel this post should be included in the Terms and Conditions of this forum. If some punk decides to waltz in here and call people elitists because of his broken down no-name brand springers from Wal-Mart that it should be a warning/bannable offense. If a member gives proper advice to someone and is in turn called an elitist, show that punk attitude like that is not tolerated.

About the vest portion of your post, the point is that you can always find vests for $20, but will it be good? Odds say no. Cheap stitching, buttons that fall off, pouches that barely hold what their supposed to hold. No one says you need to spend top dollar, but you will surely find that the more comfortable, practical and ideal choices for gear will not be cheap. Keep one saying in mind: Buy cheap, buy twice.

I agree with everything except the bit about using TM or CA to start with, but that's only because I prefer clones when it comes to AEG's, when it comes to GBB's however TM owns all :)

Good job Kal, glad this was stickied, compulsory reading for all the noobs right here!

You're right, you don't need to spend $1000 on a vest but I personally say the minimum should be around the $80 mark for a good quality used vest.

My vest may not be the real deal (it's actually a clone) and the craftsmanship may not be the best but at least it's better than a POS $20 vest and is actually great considering what I paid for it.

Like I said before, don't worry about what others say, a $80 clone vest is better than a $20 cheapo one. A $300 gun is significantly better than a $120 one (and should be the minimum of what you spend). $30 JT paintball goggles from CT are perfect, you don't need sealed ballistics and (you also can't use dentist safety glasses, apparently this happened once for real).

I guess what I'm trying to say you you is get out to a game and see what people are rocking. I have spent probably $1000+ on stuff already but I started off with $500 worth of stuff and borrowed for my first few games (goggles and BDU's) and eventually got all my own stuff. I think it's fine if you don't have everything you need at your first game and borrow a few inconsequential things like a few midcap's or paintball goggles (however don't just show up and expect people to lend you everything you need).

^ correct

I'd much rather someone post in a game thread what it is they need to borrow than show up in fuckin jeans and a hoody with a TF16 and ASSUME that it's ok to come equipped like that, it shows alot of disrespect to the other players, worse yet when they want to give the normal players attitude as if they have a right to be there, wtf seriously?

I'm guessing you've never been to a milsim game. If you like heavy vests (and I can't imagine why), all the power to you.. and if you can get a vest for $80 that does everything you want.. hey I have no issue with that. However, 90 minutes is nothing. Go play a 2 day long game with a heavy vest, and then see how much you like it ;)

You clearly never played as a goalie, You learn to appreciate anything that is less bulky than what you are wearing. That is what my point was. And also you guessed right. ;)

Just thought I would point out that this thread defines ASC perfectly.

Airsoft gear, accusations of elitism, and hockey.

Glad to be Canadian.

You can all get back on topic now, sorry.

Elitist Bastards
 

OHH so you think you're better than me eh... with your fancy all black FMU guns.. and your triple sewn and bartacked cordura chest rig.... well you know what fella... You're right!

Frankly I see it as my purpose to turn regular run of the mill airsoft Noobs into the most snobbish elitist bastards possible... Bring em in... knock those sad excuses of guns from their hands... and push them all down in mud puddles... then pick them up... swaddle them in the highest quality ripstop poplin BDUs .. clad them head to toe in Coyote Brown TAG chestrigs and drop leg rigs... and hand em a decent gun.. most of them once initiated to the joys of good guns and decent gear have zero trouble looking down their noses at all the "new kids" coming in

Not saying what you have to do, but I learned quite quickly at my first game that heavy=bad. I had zero issues wearing and walking around in everything I had on (vest + ballistic inserts, full 2L hydration pouch, Full 1L canteen, Dump pouch filled with stuff that in hind sight, I really didn't need. etc.) But once you start running, diving, then rolling jumping back onto your feet to run again.... basically... My back hated me by the end of the day. Light is always better in airsoft, Carry as little as possible to maximize your capabilities. You may be more capable than some wearing heavy gear but then imagine what you'd be like in good light gear.

And repeat what was said, $80 for a good used pantac vest (what i use now) is 1000x better than the crap-tastic vest I bought at an army surplus for $90 which resulted in extreme back pains for me.

Kudos kalnaren! I've been hovering over the noob threads to see what I can learn about airsoft that I don't already know, and honestly, I can say that with the stuff you experienced players have, I don't know why anybody starting out wouldn't listen to you guys. My guess is that they are usually sub-18 kids wanting to try out shooting guns at people (or worse, raccoons or something). Which is a big problem because not only about the laws and potential arrests, but that these guys are adding a bad image to airsoft's already delicate situation. Yes it's been said before, but definitely I agree that this thread should be reinforced time and time again to the new players.
That's not to say all new players are bad, but they exist.

As for the gear stuff, another good point. I'm new myself to the game and I'm not even going to bother taking myself out to a game until I've got the cash to get a decent set of gear, not just the gun, which, by the way, probably appeals to the kids because its the only time they can run around with a 1:1 scale firearm. But of course again there are people out there who want to bring a Crapsoft gun to a game with jeans and hoodies. Which really defeats the purpose.

I suppose in any situation/sport one might be called an elitist, and sometimes the idea (but not the term) really is valid, I'd say one who decides to spend half their paycheck on gear is overdoing it a little, but if you've got the money to do so, by all means. But spending about a $1000 starting out on a decent gun, decent gear, decent eyewear and boots is NOT unreasonable at all.
But of course we can only guide them, in my mind if advice is given and not taken or not responded to positively, then let them make their own mistakes. We've tried.

I never said heavy was better but for one game or until payday does it matter if you are just trying a game out?

If it is for one game, why don't you rent equipment? Its probably a cheaper alternative and better value than purchasing craptastic gear that you'll never use again, especially if you intend on upgrading gear because you enjoy the sport. At least by renting good equipment you'll really get a feel of what is good.

It does not, as long as one understands that their inferior good is just that, something that gives them the means to participate until they can commit to something with more quality.

I would like to draw everyone's attention to this link. While it may only be wikipedia it fairly and accurately describes the idea of "inferior goods"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferior_good

actually...I will just quote the most important paragraph of the page

Wow...I thought I wrote long posts...:)

OP: I do get where you're coming from...it's obvious that you put a lot of thought into your post...and I think the points are solid.

But who cares if someone thinks you're an elitist or not? Who cares if some anonymous new guy with a bug in their rear argues a point (wrong or right)? Who cares if some anonymous person shrugs off whatever advice is given to them?

It's self evident to someone with half a brain who is trying to figure out a new hobby that they should pay close attention to any constructive help given to them. Those with less brains than that and who cast that advice aside aren't going to be helped anyways.

Personally, I think that any well structured/worded question...deserves a well structured/worded/thought-out answer. Regardless if the heart of the question has merit or not.

A half baked, misspelled, senseless post should be AT MOST...ignored. But I don't think that some people here are capable of that.

I do find it a bit amusing that guys will pound on a point endlessly...when the fastest way to make it vaporize into the deep archives of ASC is to simply ignore it and let it die. If the poster intended to troll you guys into a frenzy...you've handed over the win.

T7 has it. There's nothing wrong with buying a low cost vest to try out the game. As long as you have a decent gameable gun, good eye protection and good boots (one can't stress that last one enough), a cheap vest that will at least carry your mags is good enough. It'll do. However, one quickly realizes the problems, limitations, and often, durability of their purchase and will buy something better down the road. The vest is one area where I would agree that it's ok to cheap out on a first purchase.

That being said, for the same price as these cheap vests new, you can often find a half decent used vest that will last. And if it's a modular platform, you can always upgrade it with pouches you need / want. It may already have most, if not all the pouches you'll need. In the long run, this is cheaper than buying a cheap vest first, then a better one plus pouches down the road.

yep, I notice alot of noobs (including myself) buy those swat style black vests to start out with, and quickly realize that black is a horrible colour to play with outdoors, and that they are usually very uncomfortable.

Hey for a half descent and fair price, a new Airsofter can buy a good JG Clearsoft model from Valocity Arms. I was at Frank's office last week and got to see these new models. The claer soft is smoky lower eeceiver and the weight of the rifle felt real, even weighed on scales. I am going to buy one of his M 4's and GBB M 9 (clearsoft) so I can transport them back and forth of United States when I play down there.

Q

I'd like to remind everyone to go easy on him. I think he means Cansoft and not clearsoft.

Other than the clear / tinted lower, VA's JG guns are the same as the regular JG line.I'm 100% behind them. Ditto for the G&G and ICS lines with the clear / tinted receivers. I've seen and shot a few of the G&G models and IMO, they're excellent guns and make great starter models.

However, others have serious issues with clear receivers despite how good everything else in and on the gun may be.

you will still have issues with taking an airsoft gun across the border, whether it has a clear lower or not.

Read it all. Learned a lot. Appreciate the thread. When you mentioned G&G "half breeds" were you referring the the CAS line? Is there anything wrong with them? Do you know the failure rates on them; because I was planning on getting on as a first airsoft gun. I would google it but it's really hard to find stuff on the CAS line. Happy hunting!

There's quite a few ok starter guns out there...but I'd never recommend the tinted lower G&G M4 blow backs. I've seen too many broken receivers.

Now, not all receivers are created equal and maybe the hammer resistant ones won't crack at the front pin. Perhaps I'm biased after seeing just the broken ones.

i have one of those, bought it on a whim was shopping for a new front end, regret it a lot.

i can understand why people get spooked when they join and lash out at he people giving advice.

when i first joined i asked what pistol to buy, instead i got a shopping list of stuff i didn't even realize was needed, and a lecture on the shittiness of high caps. (thanks crunch for that advice) it was depressing.

but i got av'ed got a new front end for my t-maul, some new batteries, and a box of real caps and some new batteries. and months later replaced my kjw pistol with a ksc which really was worth the extra money.

now if only i could get out to a game...
my first thread in the noobie tank taught me that gear wise, my pre conceived notions of what airsoft where wrong.

and this thread really does reinforce that

Alright, queue the record scratch.

I disagree. Oh no, how is that possible?
We were all joining hands and united
snobs just a second ago...

Airsoft is not much different than your
average geek role playing hobby. You
want like minded geeks to maintain
the status quo— correct? Well as long
as they look/act the part they should
be accepted and not ruin your fantasy,
even if you can't see the price tags and
brand names hanging off the gear and
guns.

I'm still wearing my imitation BlackHawk
tac vest from 5 years ago ($20), albeit
without any buckles or zippers from being
shot out at TAC. But the fact remains I
joined this hobby in jeans with a WE pistol,
but quickly bought the cheapest TAC gear
(all black) to fit in with CQB play. And I
still use the very same crappy gear to
this day. Outside play happened the same
way, went in civies, graduated to another
cheap ($20) green tac vest and woodies.
My gear closet for indoor and outdoor cost
less than one of my cheapest pistols and
it works.

I hate to break it to you folks but most if
not all of our "goods" are inferior. They're
cheapass clone toys of real steel items.
WE are inferior to the real operators. How
many players are even in decent physical
shape? Makes me laugh when I see hard
core role players wearing all the real gear
in XXL and clutching a cheeseburger in
one hand.

I understand you want to draw the line, like
any Star Trekkie or Star Gate hobbyist, but
realize it's about fun, and if you don't have
fun right away why would you invest? It's
your duty as head geeks to educate and
mentor the next gen of big spenders and
hard core role players.

If i were you i'd try to find a G&G Armament version instead of CAS. Yes they are harder to find as CAS has a near strangle hold on G&G but totally worth the effort. I bought a G&G cansoft as my second gun, I love it. You will probably need to change the hop up rubber though.

I agree with everything thats said about the guns. However I think gear can be whatever suits you, if it works for what you paid, why change.. But if it is uncomfortable and or breaks easy, than yes, time to get some better quality gear...

For me I still use the $40 tactical vest that I purchased for my second game, that was 4 years ago.. for every other loadout, I use 1968 Vietnam webgear. It works for me and has never failed, so I am sure not gonna go spend $100 on another rig just so I can be apart of the group who speant as much on gear as they did guns :)

That said, I speant 90% of my funds on my guns when I started out, I fully recomend doing this when you start out as well. Get a decent BDU, belt and some pouches to hold your mags, canteen for water. Then get a gun that works, battery that works, and a charger that works. This should be the order of operations to start your airsoft career, then after, start to buy some gear to fit your play, comfort, ect.

My 2 cents, otherwise, good thread.

Problem is the immense cost, I want a MP5SD6 and along with all the shipping and tax, that would be $500 from Ken

If you would please bother yourself to get age-verified, you would find a full metal MP5SD6 for sale in the classifieds for as little as $275.

If you are on a budget, you don't need to be a sucker and pay retail.

Work smarter, not harder.

If you are not of age, don't worry about it. You shouldn't be buying one anyways.

Well I'm glad you posted this, and I'm glad I read it all the way through.

Great Read, loved it.
It'll give advice to the new players, changing their minds about buying a crossdraw vest from your local Surplus Store for way more than its worth.

Again, great thread. Well Done :D

The funny part is that for me and many others, our mistakes were few because we read the stickies. I posted about hunting camo and was roasted with good cause. I never thought much of it except, shit I gotta think through what I'm saying here. Ya my friends are not military dudes playing army and it worked while we dicked around, but the guys I play with now wouldn't dig it ever.
So if the stickies got read we could really save some time and effort.

The amount of money you spend on gear doesn't make you noobish or elitist. You can be an asshat with 10 years in this sport too.

I think like any community there are those who take the time to make intelligent contributions based on experiences that are reflected on and lessons taken away from. I've also known guys in the sport for several years who wouldn't know a life lesson if it bonked them on the head.

I think those who get accused of elitism have a strong opinion, and, at some point, see something that sets them off and they post something passionate about it and when they see someone with less experience being dismissive of that experience, the "I've spent $10,000 on gear" or "I've got $10,000 worth of guns", or "I've been playing airsoft before baby Jesus shat a diaper" comes up and the elitist card gets pulled. I've seen vets here come off like idiots and I've seen noobs post the most inane and dense comments.

Bottom line is you are who you are. I've been comfortable from day one as to who I am here and what I am about. If someone wants to label me, so be it, it doesn't change the facts as I see them. Similiarly I am respectful of other people's passions and experiences and am relatively slow to flame. I think if more people took that approach, you'd get less of the friction you see around here.

Although, believe me, since the noob tank and the additional moderators and the banning of some key idiots, things are a LOT nicer around here. The only downside is the vets that I know lurk here but no longer post. Thats a real loss.

Newbs are, for the most part, annoyingly simpleminded and lazy.

When effort is counted in keystrokes, I have no time to waste on folks who are so obviously addicted to the "I WANT IT NOW AND CAN GET IT NOW" generational tit. IF you cannot spare the energy to type in the few extra letters required for a reasonable facsimile of English, and cannot wiggle your index finger to bring the search function into focus, I believe 100% that you should get fucking flamed for being a lazy retard.

I am elitist not because I have been in longer, or have spent more, but because next to you fucking newbs I cannot appear to be anything else.

Kal nailed it, but I don't give a fuck what the newbs think of me, so I'll just sit over here in leet corner with my super kit and watch the stupid questions based on lazyness and lack of intiative keep rolling in.

Amen brother.

I find that there is more fun to be had on the field, then banging your head on a keyboard helping those who dont help themselves.

Jesus, or some other religious guy, said they help those who help themselves. I probably misquoted it, I wasnt there when they said it, I was at an airsoft game. :)

It's not so much that I care if someone calls me an elitist, it's more that a thread will often progress like this:

-Newbie1 askes about cheap guns/cheap equipment/whatever
-They get the standard replies from ASC, some helpful, some not, but all basically saying cheap equipment is crap and isn't worth it.
-Newbie1 argues the point with the common arguments...vets disagree.. standard ASC thread follows.
-Newbie2 comes out of fucking nowhere, says to newbie1 that everyone else are being elitist pricks, suggests crap equipment or stupid unfounded advice, and for some unknown reason, newbie1 listens to newbie2 who's been on the board for 2 months instead of the vets, and hops on the "they're being elitist pricks" bandwagon.

Partially my objective with the post was to try and discourage newbie1 (who might otherwise be a reasonable individual) from listening to dumbass newbie2 when newbie2 starts dishing out completely usless advice.

As for who is an elitist, there really is a difference. Here's two examples:

"Everyone should have a PTW, because they're very, very nice guns."
"Everyone should have a PTW, because everything else is 100% complete crap and usless."

One of those is personal opinion based on experience, the other is complete bullshit and is illustrative of an elitist attitude. While PTWs are nice, there are plenty of excellent alternatives. I do get offended when I recommend a CA to a newbie over a Kraken and they throw me into the second catagory. Compared to a CA, a Kraken is crap... that's facts based on experience.

At the end of the day, if a newb doesn't want the advice, fine. But I'd rather try and convince them so that we actually end up with a good, quality player and member of the gaming community rather than a cheapass twat.

Edit: I didn't intentionally pick on the PTW crowed... just using it to illustrate a point. You could swap the PTW in the example with a Real Sword and the result would be the same.

Again...I get what you're saying...and I do see the point in the cases where newbie2 misinforms newbie1.

But...if either newbie1 or 2 discard the advice you (or anyone else) gives...who cares?

- they've been provided the information that they could have searched for
- it's been put plainly in front of them
- they've discarded it for whatever reasons

If they do that...they're not going to listen to you (anyone) anyways. You've done your duty...you've put out what help you can. Quite rudely put...Fuck 'em after that.

Why not let them be and suffer the good/bad consequences of their choices? If they buy their craptastic thingy and it breaks...that's probably going to be a more effective reinforcement of what not to buy than any number of posts that guys can throw at them. If it doesn't and they're happy with it...well that's not the end of the world either.

Anyways...to each their own. I suppose what I don't get is why it bothers you so much.

we have to keep in mind
 

For every one of the stupid gits who listen to other stupid gits and end up with crap guns...

there are about 6 new guys lurking.. listening... reading.. researching and getting involved and setting out on the right foot.

it's easy to paint all new players with the same brush.. but in my experience its not really the case.

To a degree... here on ASC the idiots are running the asylum ... but it is not representative of the community at large.

I bump into new players all the time who practically never post here.. but none the less glean most of their info from here.. winnowing the wheat from the chaffe. The typically end up well kitted and prepared ...

one thing i find funny is how all sorts of noobs started using the term elitist. I have NEVER heard that word in my life up until Obama started running for president of the USA and the word elitist started getting throw all around the media and what not.... Just the newest "perfect fits for everything insult" that the noobs found, to replace "f*ck you, yah f*cking f*ckers"

If someone
 

Calls me "Elitist" I know I'm doing it right.

I try very hard to be better than everyone else.. I rarely am .. but I still try. If I have people calling me "elitist" I know I'm getting there .. at least in the perceptions of some.

My idea of what is important and significant in this Hobby is likely different than many others. Its those differences that result in people feeling Inferior.. and labeling others "Elitist"

the opposite of "Elite" is average, mundane, typical .. I certainly don't want to be that....

IMO, that's what noobs should do. There should be a forced period of at least a week (probably more) where a new user can read but can't post. And I'd still be all for locking down the noob tank so that noobs can start a thread, but only the OP and members who have been registered for over a certain amount of time should have the ability to post replies in the thread. That way, it would avoid issues of the blind leading the blind as it seems to happen so regularly.

Personally, I found this site in about July of 2007. I immediately recognized it as being a wealth of information. I read every sticky, and read everything that I could find of interest to me, and anything that I thought would be useful to know. I finally signed up for an account and started posting in November. By then, I already had a good foundation. I knew what was what and who was who (for the most part). I knew of the grey legal area of airsoft, I knew we couldn't import, etc.

Now I did post questions to stuff I didn't find answers for, and some were noob-ish questions. But I got some very friendly and helpful answers and was never flamed once. Why? Because I took the time to research, and when I did post a question, I made it apparent that I had searched before asking. That in itself goes a LONG way to avoid the usual hostility towards noobs. The only flaming I've ever received on this forum was at the hands of noobs who don't agree with my 'elitist' advice.

And it's ironic that I've been called an 'elitist' when I'm a big supporter of budget brands like JG and Echo 1. lol People's standards for elitism are pretty low, it seems.

+1
Couldn't agree more...

I find that a newbie that doesn't hear what (s)he wants calls everyone an elitist regardless of what they use. It just seems to be a defense mechanism for people that have their backs up against the wall with answers of "you need to spend more money than $100 to start playing airsoft". Just like schoolyard kids that call each other fags without the other person actually being a homo, just a defense mechanism for the first kid to try and feel superior for a brief fraction of a second.

I propose a new ASC rule called Kalnaren's Law.

If one member, during the course of discussion, refers to another member as "elitist", any member can invoke Kalnaren's Law. At that point, the discussion of the topic at hand is immediately ended and the person who called another elitist is considered to have lost the debate.

For reference, see Godwin's Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

You're such an elitist to suggest such a thing... ;)

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/282...iditburnsa.jpg

I had the exact same argument with biking equipement that I've been having on these boards for years. For example, I had a 250km run over 3 days as a summer course. Plenty of people signed on because, hey, easy course right?

People were told time and time again that there is a minimum equipement barrier that needs to be meet to enjoy the activity. Nothing fancy, but a 1000$+ investement still. People still showed up with beaten up 10 year old Canadian Tire "mountain" bikes and no bike pants. Guess what, these people didn't enjoy their trip, not one bit.

Same with airsoft! Sure, you can tag along and pretend to play, but you wont find it as enjoyable as you should because of shit gear and guns and I wont enjoy it because your lack of realism detracts from the simulation aspect of the sport.

Fuck, pay up, save up or shut up. It's that simple. Did you try to call Xbox 360 owners elitists just because they have the newest toy, all the while saying your PS2 can keep up? You'd get the same welcome than here with subpar gear.

good thread.... it's not uncommon to have keyboard warriors (myself included) who post things on the top of our heads... at the end it's all about personal preferences. I do not see the need why u had to justify yourself though.. i just think most of us have to think before posting.. thats it. now fanboys... thats another concern...

Here is my story, take it for what it is............
I am new to airsoft, but I did not join to attend the games. I joined because I love the guns. I have collected guns longer than some of you have been alive ;-) Yes I have a cheap Wallyworld m4. And yes I bought it to learn the workings of these guns.

I am a machinist and work at an oil refinery, so I can afford to buy a high end gun.......or make it for that matter :-) But im not going to jump in head first. Ill work my way around,trying various guns.

Something to keep in mind.........not every newbie buys cheap guns because they cant afford it......and cut some of the kids a break, they are the future of this sport you love so much. And a few of them have helped this old guy learn some new tricks....lol

Our issue isn't so much people buying cheap guns. If you know what you're getting, the choice is yours. We simply try to inform.

Our issue comes when people (mostly kids) get angry at us when we tell them a cheap gun is exactly that -cheap. I'd say once a week we get someone who throws a hissey-fit when they think their $150 AEG is all that and we tell them it's about as low as you can go and still call it an airsoft gun. We recommend higher end guns so they can have something they can actually enjoy for more than a game before it breaks.

Cheap guns are excellent for project guns or for tinkering with. A lot of people have bought Krakens and used them as a base for an AEG that's better than most stock guns. However most n00bs lack the skills to fix or repair said guns when they break -hence why we recommend ones that don't break as often.

As for the wallymart M4.. hey.. that's where I started ;)

That's cool. Go with it if it does the trick for you. Some have decribed the Kraken as a 3D learning tool for airsoft.

You're a machinist right?...so you've seen some decent calipers and micrometers. So take a nice Mitutoyo mic and compare it to a $10 special at the local auto store. They do the same thing in function...the cheaper one works good enough for most (certainly for a hobbyist like me)...the more expensive one might not really be the best value. But the Mitutoyo is nicer and if you had to buy tooling/stuff again...what would you spend your hard earned money on? And to continue the analogy...you can't measure much very accurately with the 6/$10 pack of plastic venier calipers that are basically disposable (I've got 5 of the 6 left...and wish I had my $10 back ;)).

So there's NICE...good enough...and just plain not good enough for anything realistic.

If you had to setup your own machine shop, what would you choose?...a big cart full of Canadian Tire Jobmate stuff, or fewer but nicer quality (buy once) stuff? I'd bet that you'd lean more towards the latter.

Now...if some guy is asking you what to get 'cause he's just starting out and needs everything...and you reply "Well...you should avoid the $99 Mastercraft Drill Press and don't waste your money on the Jobmate 99pc socket set cause the tolerances are large and the socket wrench is shoddy..."...then all of a sudden you look like an elitist.

Actually when I started out snowboarding I just rented. I didn't go out and buy a $100 board, cheap bindings and cheap boots. I rented it first and decided I liked it.

There are a few reasons why I rented instead of buying straight away, one of them being I didn't want to drop $250 on a board setup and have it break on me or be really cheap quality and not enjoy it. I'm not saying that rental stuff is that good either but chances are it's slightly higher quality than what's available for $250 and it's only ~$35 to rent so why not?

IMO renting first and then buying is what people should be doing but no one seems to think so. Why use something that multiple other people have used when I can get "my own" and own it rather than having it for one day; is probably the line of thinking most n00bs have. It doesn't work that way, the mountains that rent stuff out usually perform maintenance and such on their equipment so part of the price is paying for labour to tune/repair the equipment.

In conclusion 3 years later, after my first boarding experience, I picked up a used board package that was worth a pretty penny but I really like it and it's "high quality", instead of me going from low quality board to low quality board every few years this one is probably going to last me a lot of seasons.

I guess though that I'm one of those people who have the line of thinking where you try it out with some rented mediocre equipment and if you like it go all in (my mountain bike setup is probably worth a good $2000). I have tried other things like skiing, I like it but not enough to dump the money required for some relatively mediocre equipment but at least I tried it out on some mediocre equipment and decided whether or not I liked it than some cheap ass setup and hating it. I still ski however when I do it I just borrow my dads equipment (mediocre equipment which keeps me satisfied).

Where was I going with this rant? I don't actually know but the thing I guess I'm trying to say is that people should probably rent first with some mediocre equipment before they go all in rather than getting low quality stuff and going from gun to gun to gun because it's cheap and you either can't repair it or if it's repairable the cost to repair it is more than getting another cheap one.

EDIT: PS: @ notec: If you're a machinist you're probably lightyears ahead of some of these noobs who ask "w0t gun iz best" and a few days later "halp meh I broked mah gun". You've go the mechanical knowledgebase to be able to do some of these things and figure out how these systems work and such and most likely the tools to do the job. Whereas most of these noobs are 13 or 14 year olds who at most have some experience from shop class (usually not) and no formal training in mechanical systems.

I agree with what you guys are saying..........but for the record.........if someone asked me whats the best tool(gun) for them to buy, my first question is "what can you afford?"....lol

Ive only been on this forum for a short while.........I have seen how things are and have adapted. But thats because I have been around long enough to be a good judge of people. I can see how the elitist title can be thrown around, just as the n00b is.........

Once people realize we are pretty much all on the same page, terms like n00b and elitist will fade into the background.............until then take everything with a grain of salt, just dont get it in your eyes ;-)

The biggest problem tends to be when someone asks if a kraken or broxa is good. We respond with a resounding "no", in no uncertain terms. Then when the first person freaks out because we don't give them the answer they want, the elitist tag gets thrown and person A is made to look like a victim of the ASC monster. What needs to change is newer peoples attitudes when we say gun A is crap from our collective experience, and make recommendations for ones that will be less of a monetary burden in the long run. Not for OUR benefit for theirs. Whats the point of asking a public forum their opinion, then acting like children when given just what they asked for?

Yup........some people dont like the answer they are given........

I blame TV and Rap music...........lol

All you can do is be honest........what happens from there kinda depends on how the person perceives the answer.........some will take it and learn from it......others wont.

Best thing to do is smile and move on to the next post.

ya i started out renting as well. i knew what i wanted, i just had to save up.

That's gold.

I agree that some peeps don't like the answer they get so they try to change it.

I fear that when they start to spout this "elitist" argument that often they should be saying "rude". On the internet many people just can't help themselves and become very rude. It even has a name: "flame". There are some of those "rude" types on this board. I am not saying that their opinions are wrong, they just cannot seem to express themselves without being insulting and rude. We could name the greatest of these, but instead I'll name some that I think are good answerers: Latency comes to mind quickly, always there to give an informative answer without the "elitism". If the asker doesn't want to accept the answer he doesn't go into a tirade. It is simply a matter of "so be it, don't take my advice", and move on. Another one is KOS-MOS, always with great answers. As I write this I realize that almost everyone on this board provides good answers. The "rudies" are few.

The staff of this board always seem to answer questions without "elitism" or rudeness. Come to mind quickly would be: Drake, Tokyo Seven, ILLusion.

Indeed.

Can't really say you want to see what it's like having a pet, but only wanna spend the money to get a tomagatchi to see what it's like first.

A problem is that people mostly just don't want to spend that much money, and use the excuse "I don't wanna spend much in case I don't find it fun"
Then once anyone tells them the obvious; that cheap guns suck, more expensive guns -tend to be- better, and actually accurate.
But since they're being told this by people who have been in the sport longer than them; they pull the "oh, you're just elitist, now point me to the $20 metal AK47"

I spent quite a lot on my first gun recently, and never expected to spend under $250

Nothing wrong with buying a Kraken to start with
Buying other chinese guns is less recommended, but you can still do it
Just don't think anyone's going to want to upgrade it since "100% marui compatible" is just a stamp they put on the box to make it look pretty. I think of it like the "SEALS" logo on the SIG552 box lol

There are some cheaper vests that work, but your still going to spend around 100$, and theres no such thing as "a cheap pouch that works". Cheap pouches are crap, that's why they're cheap lol

Don't buy anything from Rothco

The three things you should have the highest budget for are:
1) your eye protection (60$ for ESS ICE glasses)
2) your airsoft gun (buy something mainstream, used or new)
3) your BOOTS (Don't spend less than 100$)

Advisory: be advised that opinions are present in this post
 

I'll get flammed for saying this but...

Flamming someone for asking if a particular chinese brand is any good...

How would you feel if you emailed a tv car show about buying a Hyundai and have having your email read on TV and answered by " F*** off and go get a bmw or else your a fag!!"

The person probably knows it's crap, but flamming for asking what is the best crap is ridiculous.(particularly when a newb flames another newb Some poeple love airsoft, but don't want to invest 2k$ on stuff just to get started.

Some players swear only by Tokyo Marui, some by Systema, yet some of the best players on this forum are using painted crapsoft in cqb games. And they Pwn Marui owners regularly in games.

Watch out who you flame...You could get shot in the ass by their transparent springers.

Your analogy is pretty skewed..

It would be like going to foreign super-car class race and bringing a Dodge Caravan, sure your car could drive on the track, but you wont enjoy yourself to the full extent.

Who here plays airsoft professionally, I.E. paid to do it full time?...

A complete moron with a supercar could still get owned by Michael Schumacher in a Caravan. Maybe not everytime but probably most of the time.

People, stop thinking that it's all about the better replica, IMO It's the players attitude and judgement and not about who's got the priciest most pimped out gear.

Just look at our armed forces...We have some of the best soldiers in the world and look at the crappy ressources they are sometimes given to do their job and still they kick the americans ass in some wargames. Who's got the better gadgets?

No, you won't get flammed. A lot of people seem to think ASC is a flamefest. I guess they don't get the correlation between type and quality of posts, and the amount of flaming. People don't get flammed for having opiniions. They get flammed for being fucktards.

Now, to address what you said... obviously you've never watched an episode of Top Gear. Man.. I'd love to drop a piano on clearsoft guns.

Flaming simple questions by others gets really bad around here about once a month (sound like anything else that happens once a month? :))

It also becomes a sympathetic social issue (anti-flaming, can't we all just get along type stuff) about every fourth month...right after "the sky is falling" but before "retailers are ripping us off".

And if you think it's bad now...hold onto your hats as we head into winter season when chairsofting dominates.

Between Dec and March they should make this forum read only and have volunteers go through and purge all the crap that's dumped here, consolidate common questions, clean up my swearing, etc...:). Then open it up again when games start being booked.

Just my two cents.

My 2 cents on this (me being a noob who barely posts, but reads a lot) is that there is some elitism here, but it isnt what has been spouted yet. Certain people flame anyone who even thinks of getting a half-breed, even if its a decent one internally just because it isnt all black. Then they bang off some more rhetoric about getting AVed and buying a used black for only a little more. People make choices. And sometimes they have no choice, like for example people lkiving in Edmonton who cant get a single AV rep to even return a message because they havent played in a game because they dont have all black gear because they cant get reps to return their messages. Not that i'm hinting. Much.

Although michael schumacher would still kickass with a cyma AK, he'd still do significantly better with a PTW
But he's a racecar driver, and racecar engines are designed to explode as they cross the finish line, just like chinese guns explode at the end of the scrim :) LOL

Elitists prefer what's he most reliable not excatly he most expensive although there's the mentality of the more you spend the better which is still true in some sense.

With the newer generation of Chinese guns coming out on the market it would actually be more PRACTICAL to go that route for a base, especially if you plan on replacing a bulk of the stock parts. Someof the new stuff is equally of not better then CA but keep in mind that these Marui based design guns have had literally almost two decades to make improvements so it should be expected that the new stuff is better.

Personally I would rather buy a CYMA 041 or 049 for an MP5 then upgrade the literal shit out of it because externally it's well-built and the takedown design by G&G is so much better then the old school clamshell receiver design but if I had the money I would not hesitate on purchasing a Systema TW5 because it is just pure sex

Anywho it's a case by case basis depending on the type of gun you want.

I really don't think the quality of the gear/gun is the real issue here. Everyone knows that you get what you pay for and that higher quality stuff is more expensive for a reason; it will perform better and last longer. It's not even debatable...it's the cold hard truth.

A big part of the whole "flaming" and "elitist" thing going on at ASC is really about communication. As mentioned several times and as I've witnessed a number of times myself, sometimes the OP of a thread doesn't get the answer they were hoping for and flips out. I agree, immature and closed to the opinions of others. However, the whole process of the OP posing the question, to it being answered, to the OP using the term "elitist"...how does it come to be? Let's look beyond the content of the question and answers. While the written (or typed) word doesn't carry any "tone", it still has a certain air associated with how a statement is worded. If the delivery of an answer to a question is simple, to the point, informative, helpful and friendly, it'll be much better received than if it were condescending, insulting and otherwise unfriendly or discouraging.

At this point, I imagine the seasoned veterans of the sport going "Every noob that comes around thinks they can be a 1337 sniper with some China clone spring gun with high fps. I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over." I can understand that and I agree that it gets tedious. Everyone has a point where their patience runs thin and emotions come into play and the need to be harsh comes in. I'm not saying that those giving good advice are at fault. As a matter of fact, I'm not saying the either party is at fault...not completely.

What I am saying is that a forum is where people share their opinions, experiences and knowledge on a common interest and where people come in search of information (in the form or opinions, experiences and knowledge). So the basic function (for lack of a better word) is giving out information and obtaining information. This goes back to what I said about communication. The process involves one party relaying information and the other party receiving, processing and understanding this information. In order for that to be successful, both parties need to play their part well. The party relaying info needs to do so in such a way that it can be received and understood by the other party, who, in turn, needs to do their best to receive and understand the info that they're given.

Statement of the obvious right? So how does this come into play other than the obvious? When the one answering the question (giving out info) is being helpful, informative and friendly, they are increasing the chances of the OP (the one to receive the info) actually receiving, understanding and accepting what's been said. If one, on the other hand, is being mean, unfriendly and insulting in answering the question, they are lowering the chances.

On the flip-side, when the OP is being close-minded and immature about an answer, they are not playing their part in communication...they are not receiving and understanding. Being on the receiving end of communication requires that you be open-minded and willing to learn. Bringing preconceptions that may be inaccurate is not a good way to learn, Remember the tea cup story? Long story short, a person goes to a master to learn under them. They are somewhat overconfident and even arrogant. They dislike what the master tells them to do and hate that the master won't "teach" them. When the confront the master, he gives the student a tea cup and begins pour tea into it. It fills up, but the master keeps pouring. When the student protests, the master says "Precisely, If the cup is already full, how can you fill it?"

Furthermore, if they ask a question that's already been answered many times, it's also a failure, on their part, to obtain information. Let's use this as an example: User comes and starts a thread and asks a question already answered in another thread. They didn't search, their fault. Some possible answers would be:
a) "Use the search function"
b) "Did you even try looking before you posted?"
c) "Read the FAQ's you idiot"
d) "[here is the answer to the question]. Next time, you can use the search function to see if you question has been answered before."
If you were the OP, which answer would be best received?

So really what I'm trying to say is, when someone gets "flamed" or called an "elitist" it all comes down to communication.

Sorry for my unorganized post...I'm not a very good writer, but those are just my thoughts, albeit messy.

Bought a springer kokuosi? back in 1986 for a $120- delivered. Was supposed to shoot super accurate w/ brass shells and pop caps in the rear. Brass shells didn't show up w/ the rifle(m16)- a letter explained that the shells w/ the pop caps, caused fouling and jams, hence, the reason for no brass. About 30-40 bb's later, the rifle quit working. Hell, like it mattered anyways, where was I gonna buy more bb's anyways? Opened it up, found fibergleass wrap for a barrel to hop seal (come to think of it, it didn't have a hop). Guys, I would have loved to have the crap-soft that's out there now instead of the real P.O.S. that showed up at my house. I guess me and my friends were just gonna have to stick w/ getting shot in the butt w/ a weak bb gun. I know, we were complete idiots for using bb guns. I guess somebody's wondering what this rant's about. Doesn't really seem to have anything to do w/ the " To flame or not to flame", discussion-or does it. Everybody does something for the first time, and then gets to find out there might have been a better way. Remember the first time you wrecked your bike? Remember the first time you helped someone to learn to ride one?

Quality Equipment is important in Airsoft. More important is the player using it. I own many brands of guns and gear. My Favorite airsoft experiences Have not been who I shot and with what gun. Instead I have allways enjoyed the knowledge of owning people with lesser gear and experience.
My favorite kills have not been with a TM, CA, G&G or JG. It was with a rubber training knife. Cost $20.00. Regardless of a players gear, nothing speaks louder then the actions of said player. I had a new player sneak up on me in an outdoor game and put a round in my back with a cheap Canadian Tire pistol. He was so pumped, I dont think a $600 full black gun would have made that kill a better experience.

IMO. Both the terms Elitist and Noob can be equally frustrating. Who decides when someone is no longer a new player (noob). In the same way, when does a player become a Seasoned/knowleged player. I think both of these terms can be taken differently depending on how they are said and in what way. I was Called a Noob by a player that has about 4 years more experience than me. At the time I had been playing for 2 years, run a field, repair minor AEG problems and host games. This was a little hurtful to me. Had I not earned my way and payed dues like all other players. I think there will allways be a small percentage of people that look down on someone who has less experience then them in any subject. We all must remember ourselves when we started out in a new hobby. I am sure we all asked dumb questions at some point in our lives.

We dont need to post answers/opinions to questions if we dont want to. If we answer a new players question and they dont like the answer then just leave it at that. Calling People elitists is silly but could be avoided by ignoring the person and not trying to push our own opinions on people that dont want them.

I think we should remember that all we are giving new players is opinions. If we had a automobile forum and a new driver asked what car he should buy, All he would get is opinions. Some will say buy Chevy, Some Ford while others will say everything thats not BMW is Sh*t.

If a new player hasnt read the hundreds of threads about "which gun should I buy" I say let him buy the cheap crap and let them learn on thier own. We shouldnt have to give these opinions on whats good and bad. Mostly every gun has been covered in this forum, especially beginner guns. People not taking the time to research a gun on this site dont deserve my time typing them an opinion.

Thanks for the great read guys. Read all 6 pages.

A lot of great points have been made, and I can fully understand where the term elitist comes from. I run several forums and know how frustrating it can be dealing with new folks who don't understand how to form a proper sentence, let alone how to properly ask a question. I've been there time and time again trying to explain the very basics about DSM (talons, eclipse, laser) and people will almost always resort to the cheapest possible alternative. And for god sakes, use the search button!

Something simple that DOES in fact translate to airsoft from my car modifying experience.

You can be cheap.
You can be fast (fps,accuracy etc)
You can be reliable.

But you can only pick 2.

As a newcomer to the sport, I also understand the flip side of the coin. (and I completely understand the hockey references, I never buy cheap skates - bad bad bad!) A friend and I both recently bought guns from Velocity Arms. We didn't go crazy, but didn't go completely on the cheap either. I bought an HK416 variant (w/552 reddot), and he got himself an M4 sniper setup. I've bought a full CADPAT BDU setup, a semi-cheap vest to start ($80, i'll see how I like it). I still need a few more things to complete my setup. I've also got a cheap CO2 pistol (I actually like it though) and a leg-drop holster. I'm sure I've spent over 1000-1100 dollars already. I understand how people may not want to invest more than a few hundred bucks into something. Sometimes you just need to go balls deep into things to find out if you truly enjoy it. Although you could borrow somebody's gear to get a good appreciation for the hobby/sport.

As long as the vets respect the nubs and help nurture them a bit instead of chastising them about everything they do wrong, I don't see the harm in how things are run here. In the end it's their decision whether or not to heed your advice. So far, so good for me though. Just don't jump down my (or other people) throat over some nub ignorance. Everybody has to start somewhere.

~Chris.

i beg to differ lols. Hondas don't cost much to be fast, especially with ITR swaps. reliability isn't an issue either.

regarding airsoft, i think as long as you're having fun it's all good. honestly if i had to choice to go back i'd just buy a clear gun and enjoy the sport more.the choice is up to you whether or not to spend a sum of money on this hobby.

Hey, I said fast! :P

ahaha 11 sec fast enough!? the reliability thing is really questionable though for every subject out there. which raises the question "How far do you want to go?"

*aside: not a honda fan myself

People do fish for answers they possibly already know and i think thats just to support their decision.

Elite in my work space means "the best" in the gaming world. I wouldnt take it as an insult.

I still consider myself a n00b only because of my tenure in airsoft being just under a year. This doesnt mean i have a crap gun or don't know anything about airsoft, just that my tenure is low. I know CA, ICS, and TM are good based on what others have said as well as the price. I have had JG, WA, G&G, and KJW. All I can say is my G&G has been more reliable and durable than any other gun i have had. I have literally never cleaned the barrell, oiled the hop rubber, greased the cylinder, or anything for that matter and the bastard works just as it did out of the box 350fps consistantly.

I will never hesitate to offer a "n00b" my personaly opinion because i was in that situation back when i joined ASC and all of you were happy to give me some direction.








LOL @ Talon97 for the quote! ;)

eye opening, I hope everyone read this, I though airsoft was about having fun, not about who has the better gun. Its personally each owns players choice to how much someone want to spend on one. If they spend 20.00, you get what you paid for. If you spend 1000.00 then you got a good gun. I think its foolish to call down other players over what type they have. I have the crappy plastic ones which have served me well, I have the money and when I get AV'ed ill buy better ones. Its simple Money = Quality

I think you nailed the root issue right here. Well said.

you're all a bunch of elitist b*stards ;)

nice thread, and perfect for new players to read.. thankfully in all my (long grandpa phrase goes here) long years of playing, people have taken my advice (when given in person)

but then, if someone is an insufferable prat, they won't listen to anything that doesn't re-inforce the world view they have, even worse they don't know how to read the responses they do get. They will presume that the (insert item here) is good because they've seen it 'reviewed' by 2 kids on youtube (don't get me started on this) who take the gun out of the box and give themself a mental hand-job for the great purchase that they compare to _other_ online reviews by mentally handicapped youngsters..

so when one of this group asks for help selecting a gun (and they already have something in mind) they really just want a rubber-stamp on whatever they decide on.

they don't care if the 'god of airsoft' came down and wrote out a 5 page essay on the rights and wrongs of china-soft, they will (usually) go with the cheap option they have in mind, in doing so we as a community will try our very hardest to stop this inevitable train-crash that we know from _experience_ will happen.. and so they get defensive when we tell them they are going down a path of pain and suffering.

and also, to show my age..
i remember buying CA when it was gen 1 .

and then finding that it was shooting at 420FPS on a field that only allowed 328FPS

and then finding out that the springs were cut-down 'things' that used to dig chunks out of pistons, this was suprising to me because no-one even knew much about classic army. a metal body was made by systema, and the ferrari of airsoft was the old systema 'pro' (i think) line that would come out of the box shooting 560FPS, none of this PTW system.

This is probably true. It's -kind of- how I've felt. I approached airsoft thinking I could buy a gun and ammo for under $200, get my camo at value village, and have a good time.

So when I'm repeatedly told that I have to spend $500+ and I see lists like this...

...it just feels daunting. I was just at big airsoft store in the states and the guy compared the cost of airsoft to the cost of buying an old car :cry:

But anyways, realizing this information isn't really any excuse to get bent out of shape or act like a "pee pee". It's just time for a decision, to airsoft or not to airsoft!

Being told you can get into airsoft for 300$ is a lie. At that price you'd be playing getto clearsoft with shitty toys that would ultimatly end up broken in the trash after one or 2 games. And you possibly proben in a cell for being stupid in public.

Organised airsoft is expensive, as you have found out. If I sold my gear, I'd probably be able to make a good downpayment on a house.