Help with guns
 

Hello, I am new to airsoft and I was looking for a good starter gun. I have narrowed it down to :

Echo 1 M8A3
JG M4 S -System
Echo 1 ER - 25K

(Order is relevant to intrest)

Unfortunately, I cannot find ANY sites that sell/ship to Canada that sell Echo 1's. I was wondering if there is a certain reason for this, and what one would you guys recommend? It would really be helpful :)

their internals are nearly identical... only the SR25 has a slightly modified version of the V2
pick the one that you think looks the nicest
also echo 1 has additional quality control over JG

Thanks for the fast response :)
I will probably go with the ER -25K, It looks more ergonomic and stylish.
Do you hae any idea where these would be available in Canada? Thanks for the help.

Edit: Is it named the SR 25, or the ER? The Echo1 website says ER.

The real gun is called a SR-25, Echo 1 calls it whatever they want.

As for finding guns in Canada, if your over 18, you will need to meet with a local volunteer for this website to verrify that you are in fact 18+. Once your age verrified you will have access to this sites online classifieds. Thats really the only way to get an echo-1 in Canada.

Don't try to ship one in from outside of Canada, it will be stopped at the border.

Ok thanks. But as you can see... I am not verified ... yet :(
IS the gun I am looking for even in the classifieds? Is there a way to see what is in the classifieds without being able to purchase? And thanks a lot, you are being a big help :D

No, that would defeat the purpose :p

Haven't seen an Echo1 SR-25 in Canada. Lots of M4's.

You can't view the classifieds without being AV'd.

I don't remember seeing a JG SR-25 (though SR-25's of other makes do sometimes show up). But I will say that if you really want that particular model someone can probably get it for you once you're AV'd.

Ok thanks a lot guys, but I have one more question (for now... :P)
Would you recomend the ER 25K or the M8A3 over the M4? The only upgrades I would likely get are a bipod, scope, and maybe a barrel extension. I am leaning towards the ER because of its looks, its rails, and its included barrel extension. It is also 400 FPS out of the box.

They're both armalites. It's personal preference. That's it.

Well, FPS means jack shit. And 400 FPS in a stock V2 mechbox probably won't last too long without some additional parts.

Other than that, it mainly comes down to which gun you like better.

So both suck without upgrades? O.o

also be aware that the sr25 uses a bigger v2 mechbox and bigger mags. some internal parts on the sr25 are different than a regular v2 mechbox and can be tough to find them...

No.. interally, they're both the same without upgrades.

You'll notice how higher-end guns don't shoot 400fps stock. There's a reason for that. Companies that make low-end guns know n00bs jump all over FPS.. so they'll make a gun and stick in a really powerful spring the gun was never designed to take and advertise "400+ FPS".

Armalites use a Version 2 mechbox (SR-25 uses a modified V2). The version 2 mechbox has some weakpoints, and without certain upgrades or a reinforced shell, repeatedly shooting at 400FPS will break it.

So basically stronger gearbox / lighter spring?

Yea, that would be a good idea.

It depends how you play too. The SR-25 is a DMR (designated marksman rifle). If you use it in semi-auto mostly I doubt you'd run into any issues. Of course, if you bought one made by G&P or Classic Army, you wouldn't have this issue at all (and it would be full metal to boot!)

Speaking of which, G&P or Classic Army models of this gun are in the classifieds? They might be too expensive.

Sidenote:

http://velocityarms.ca/index.php?mai...roducts_id=193

http://buyairsoft.ca/catalog/product...roducts_id=455

Ripoffs? I am aware that these are different models.
I noticed that the same guns in the US are selling the same guns for a fraction of the price...

Well, I happen to think the halfbreeds (the half-clear guns) are overpriced considering you can get full black ones for the same. The quality isn't bad though.

Well, all I can find at the moment is an M4 halfbreed s-system

then a SHORTER gun will suit you more....

Well if you get out to a game theres usually an AV Rep on site (at most major games at least), Brian at TTAC3 is an AV Rep, he also hosts games and events regularly. You live in Toronto and have a plethora of reps you can meet up with, some might even be willing to meet you somewhere of your choice if its within reason. If you're 18 or older and want to obtain airsoft, then this is one of the only ways without having to resort to the halfbreeds.

What I find is when people skirt around the issue of getting AV'ed its usually (but not always) another way of saying "Im underage". If that is the case then save your time, and money until you turn 18, and you will thank yourself as well as us for that.

Ok thanks guys, I have decided on this:
http://buyairsoft.ca/catalog/product...roducts_id=455

As far as accessories go, I was looking at a decent scope and was wondering if barell extendors or lasers are worth it. You guys have been a real help, thanks a bunch :D

I think the buyairsoft ones are completely plastic/nylon/whatever, and don't have the metal upper.

It says Metal / heavy nylon. I think the rails, fire selector, trigger and maybe the sights are metal and the rest is nylon. All I am looking for is a starting gun though

I wouldn't extend the barrel of an M16 seeing as they are already quite long. Lasers are also useless IMO. Also be ware that certain lasers are not allowed at public games, as some are powerful enough to do some damage with a quick pass over the eye.

Personally I would suggest an M4 for that reason that you have the ability to use it for the field and CQB(I love to be versitile).

I wouldn't extend the barrel of an M16 seeing as they are already quite long. Lasers are also useless IMO. Also be ware that certain lasers are not allowed at public games, as some are powerful enough to do some damage with a quick pass over the eye.

Ok thanks. I just like the feel of longer guns for some reason, makes me feel more powerful :) I also would like a gun with a good rail system, as both the M16 and M4 have.

Side note: http://www.007airsoft.com/products/htm/aeg-gg-m16.htm

G&G M16 RIS:


Metal upper receiver, full length Rail Adaptor System and removable rear sight assembly,
- Smoked clear Combat Machine lower receiver
- Nylon fiber pistol grip, and one piece hop-up chamber
- 14mm- threaded one piece metal outer barrel, high capacity fixed butt stock
- Steel gears, metal bearings, bearing metal spring guide, nylon fiber piston and piston head set
- Metal Parts: flash hinder, front/rear sights, outer/inner barrels, 20mm rail on upper receiver, trigger, bolt stop, fire selector, ejection port cover, trigger guard, magazine, front/rear sling mounts, forward assist knob, charging handle, RAS rails.
- Package: Airsoft gun, Magazine, Manual, 9.6V 1400mA Battery, Wall Charger, Shooting Glasses.

So it does have a lot of metal on it, price being $392 + GST.

that VS:

G&G M4 CQB

- Metal upper receiver and removable rear sight assembly
- Smoked clear Combat Machine lower receiver
- Nylon fiber pistol grip, vertical grip, RAS panels and one piece hop-up chamber
- Metal Rail Adaptor System
- 14mm- threaded one piece metal outer barrel, special force crane stock (battery holder)
- Steel gears, metal bearings, bearing metal spring guide, nylon fiber piston and piston head set
- Metal Parts: flash hinder, front/rear sights, outer/inner barrels, 20mm rail on upper receiver, RAS Rails, rear sight assembly, trigger, bolt stop, fire selector, ejection port cover, trigger guard, magazine, front sling mount, forward assist knob, charging handle
- Package: Airsoft gun, Magazine, Manual, 9.6V 1400mA Battery, Wall Charger, Shooting Glasses.


I really like the look of both these guns, I am just concerned with the difference in accuracy. Keep in mind I would be playing mostly woodland and outdoors (I don't know if outdoors riddledwith small sheds and stone walls would be considered CQB)

I know the M4 would suit my style better, but for some reason the M16 looks a lot more appealing to me.

Would it be possible to compare these two items concerning accuarcy, ROF, versatility, and upgradeability? You guys are a big help. Thanks


EDIT: I would also be shooting at longer distances and be on the move a lot

The guns are virtually the same aside the obvious cosmetic differences. The only difference would be accuracy at long range. You would more then likely find that you have tighter groupings further out with an M16 over an M4.
But still, both can be upgraded to have the same outcome.
For the final word, you know how you play and you know what would better suit your needs and game style. Get whichever you'd be happiest with.

Thanks guys, you have all been very helpful. I will be sure to get ASC's opinion and views in the future

I already like this guy ^

Basically everwhere I read, it says get the M4, because it is superior for CQB, and it can just be upgraded to 1up the M16 for woodland... THIS DECISION IS DRIVING ME INSANE!

If you're having difficulty, I suggest you go out to an airsoft game and ask some of the players if you can handle their guns. See how they feel, how well they fit your size, etc. Most airsofters are more than happy to help someone out like this.

The thing is I really don't have any time in the near future, mid summer being the soonest possible. Basically, my question is would getting a stock M16 be worth it over getting an M4 and upgrading it to the point that it would perform as well as the M16, and also be used in CQB? From what I can understand an M16 is too big and bulky for CQB, but the M4 is built for it, and parts could be added to make it be just as respectable in long range or woodland battles?

Like we said.. internally, the M4 and M16 are identical. The only difference is the length of the barrel. The performance difference between them is almost nothing. The M16 might be a little more accurate at range because of the longer barrel, but that's it.

As for CQB, I've done CQB with my G36, and even with the stock collapsed, that was a pain. If you're planning on doing CQB the smaller gun will be better. However, if you're playing mostly woodland, it comes down largely to personal preference.

We can't tell you which gun to buy.

So the only thing with the M16 is the added accuracy (and bulkiness). So getting an M4 and adding barrel extendors would be just as worth me while? Seeing as I could always use it for CQB or add some stuff and make it as accurate as the M16. Sorry for being so repetitive and somewhat bothersome, but I would just liek to learn about this things for future reference. IMO, getting an experienced players preferences and opinions is one of the best ways for learning

Keep in mind that you won't be allowed to play with a hot gun in CQB. Lets say your outdoor gun shoots 385FPS you will not be allowed to use it in CQB unless you either use a velocity reducer or you do a spring change to bring it down to the legal level for indoor play.

If you think you're going to be playing a bit of both (CQB and Outdoors) then might I suggest an ICS gun since spring changes are easier (from what I hear) due to a different design (split mechbox).

Ok thanks, but my question still lingers.... :)

EDIT: http://buyairsoft.ca/catalog/product...roducts_id=455

That is the M16 I am interested in. Would that be any more accurate than this:

http://buyairsoft.ca/catalog/product...roducts_id=439 with a 8.25" Silencer added?


Yet another edit *sigh*

Is the JG M16 RIS comparable to the G&G M16 RIS? And is the JG M4 S-system comparable to the G&G one?

A supressor won't do anything to accuracy. The M16 would probably be a bit more accurate at range due to the longer barrel, as has been stated twice already.

G&G is probably better overall quality, though not by much. At least with G&G you have the metal upper reciever.

Keep in mind that all of those guns are too hot for indoor CQB play, and you'd have to downgrade the spring.

I should also ask: You are at least 18, right?

Is the M4 Enhanced version considerably higher grade than the regular M4?
I also noticed that the JG has a higher OTB FPS... but as someone stated before, companies often raise the FPS to get us noobs all excited. The JG is also considerably less expensive than the G&G, and would the metal recievers on the G&G really rasise the price this much, or are the internals better on the G&G overall. Thanks for all of your answers BTW, if I were you, I would be kind of frustrated :D

JG internals MAY be better than the G&G THOUGH G&G has higher quality control. basically on a 1 to 10 rating if G&G is 5 JG ranges from 1 to 10 and it's pure luck you get a good one or shit one (mind you I stand by JG as a good brand, but it's a gamble especially if you don't know how to upgrade fix yourself)

Also, it'll take just a few minutes out of your day to meet an age verifier either before or after work/school. if you do not have that much time then your best off not getting an airsoft gun cause you apparently wouldn't have time to use it.

i have to say the jing gong,i have the hk416 and haven't had any issues with it.i got it and it was shooting 450 with .2's out of the box,but thank god it kept going down.got down to 330fps i change the spring in it now shoot 350 steady.
but can buy and hk416 now,only if someone is selling there's.

I am leaning towards the G&G just because I have never heard anything bad about them (except that the V2 gearbox is kind of sub-par). If JG's were always constantly reliable I would be sure to snag one.

I'm not sure why you'd put G&G as potentially below JG like that. JG internals ain't nothing special, certainly no better than G&G.

Sorry guys, but The Saint is reliable :) See him around the site. After weeks of reaserching the shit out of this, I think I am going to have to go with the M16. I know that it sucks for CQB, but its FPS is too fast for that anyways, and I'm not going to go out and get velocity decreasers for a gun that sucks in that area anyways. Everything I have read on it is positive, minus the shitty V2 (which is easily upgradeable, I assume (?))

OK good choice. I'm sure you'll like it. I mean you did debate it throughly all the pros and cons so you should be happy with picking whatever you get.

As for meeting up with an AV rep. Yes they can *sometimes*. Although it's better if you do it at the field as doing it during the week or something there may be scheduling issues. eg. You go to school m/w/f but he may have to work on tues/thurs. (I tried to schedule a meeting but he was working when I was free, I was doing finals when he was free).

Be sure to buy your AV rep some Timmies or something (or a coffee if it's early in the morning). Then if they're not too busy you can probably hang out and chat with them for a while and ask more questions there.

OK, thanks for all of the help guys. I actually learned a lot from this :D
ASC Community is awesome, no matter what those American's say ;)

Now THAT is what I call a good Canadian attitude ;)

So last question. Basically, if I bought a G&G M4 CQB, OTB it would out perform a JG M4 s-system? The biggest things that I am concerned about are accuracy, reliabilty/durability, and ROF

The G&G Cansoft lines are sort of middle-tier, they have stock components and shoot 350-360 FPS. The newest JG S-System has an m120 spring stock in it and will shoot 400 FPS out of box. JG's internals are getting better if you can find the newer versions of their guns. The latest versions are quick excellent (for example, has a factory mosfet, bearing spring guide, reinforced gearbox, some guns have bearings in the gear or bushings, etc.) while the first releases from 2-3 years were not very good and just standard TM clones (nylon bushings, plastic spring guide, etc.).

The JG - I would game out of the box. The G&G probably has nicer external plastics and furniture - (then again the newest S-Systems by JG are full metal), but performance-wise, I would be upgrading the G&G's internals.

Durability has to goto JG for the new releases since it's full metal. G&G has nice externals (except if it's Cansoft - you'll have a plastic clear reciever instead of metal reciever of the new S-System). ROF is easily changed as one of the biggest influencing factors is simply what battery you are using...the other is the spring in the gun. With the same 8.4v battery on each gun out of the box, G&G will fire faster since it has a weaker spring. Weaker gun because of weaker spring and it's easier to cycle and therefore it will shoot faster. Since the JG is 400FPS, I'd assume it would come with a stiffer hop-up rubber from the factory. It could give it slightly more effective range and accuracy but not a lot. I've heard on some US forums that the new JG's also come with 6.03mm tightbores as well but I can't confirm this. That would help accuracy and range.

Overall out of box - the JG (as long as it's the latest version and not the 1-2 year old kinds) win in every department...the thing is you can't easily buy one in Canada whereas G&G you can. You can always buy a G&G and upgrade the heck out of it too since parts are not restricted and easily purchased.

I've gamed against the Cansoft AEGs several times, there's no more reason to upgrade them out of the box than upgrading JGs. They're solid performers out of the box.

It's the same old advice that's been dispensed for years: unless you've had years of experience tinkering with airsoft guns, field the gun before upgrading it. One of the most basic newbie mistakes is dumping money into internals for no other reason than they think they won't be satisfied with the stock FPS, ROF, accuracy, what have you, based on numbers alone. I've been there myself.

So, JG out of the box.......Could you point me in the direction of one online in Canada( I'm not yet AV'd, and won't be anytime soon)
That suprised me, I heard so many issue with the JG and not a thing about the g&g...

There's no (or not many) sources for JG guns (at least NO black ones) outside of the ASC classifieds and retailers.

Crap.
Ok, now lets talk upgradeability. To my understanding, JG is completely TM compatible? I'm not sure about the G&G thought. Sorry that I can't be more thorough

There's simply no sources for them outside of the classifieds and even there they would be rare. The only JGs you can find on online stores accessible to everyone are the Dragon Maul type ones since they look like toys (but underneath they are M4s).

And yes, both are all 'technically' TM compatible. You learn quickly in airsoft that compatible means differences in tolerances and fit and often entails modification or trial and error or busted parts and busted guns and more and more money thrown in. Therefore, I would agree with The Saint's advice and just game your stock gun if you are new to the sport. I know when I first started I played about 10 games with my JG before the arms race started and I felt that I needed to upgrade and I must have blown $200 in parts that ended up not working or busting or giving me nightmares everyway you can imagine before I got it together. These were the older version of JG guns with the nylon bushings and worse tolerances and everything. Upgrading was nightmare.

I'm assuming the G&G M4 CQB for $370 is still a good buy though? I just don't see how the JG can be so cheap and yet out play a stock gun that is twice it's price....

Where are you seeing JG prices? Of course the prices you see online for the JG is not what you going to be able to pay to get one in Canada.

You would pay double the MSRP you see on US websites for the JG gun in Canada. That general rule applies for almost every airsoft gun here. The G&Gs are made specifically for the Canadian market and are already at Canadian pricing on Canadian websites. If you were to buy the same G&G gun in the US, it would have a metal lower reciever and cost half of that $370 or less. A G&G Blowback M4 is sold by Canadian retailers for $350. In the states, it's only $140.

Get age verified and you can figure out how Canadian pricing works in order to make a better decision for yourself. We can't tell you about what is in the age restricted area, only a general idea of prices.

Oh, ok thanks for clearing that up :)
Is the G&G still worth the $370 price tag, OTB?
Say there is a JG M4 and G&G M4 on the table. You turn around, and someone mixes them up. You pick up each one and fire a good amount of rounds. Would the differences in quality be obvious? If so, which one would stand out more and why?

I've explained enough why the JG is on paper a much better performer in everyway but it is an unfair comparison, like apples and oranges because you are comparing a Cansoft gun from Taiwan with clear plastic reciever and stock parts designed for the Japanese market's type of FPS but made to be importable to the Canadian market...with a full metal Chinese clone airsoft gun that is technically restricted from import into this country and that is pre-upgraded a lot from the factory already. To be honest, I haven't held the new JGs. I've only read reviews on them from international airsoft sites. Go read reviews of these guns yourself.

It's all subjective and not something anyone can tell you unless they actually have both guns. They will feel different, they will sound different. All I can offer is that Taiwanese guns like G&G feel "tighter" and my experience with JGs is that sometimes they feel more "creaky" - again those are the old plastic versions. Not full metal. Also the JG's I have had in the past sounded "whiney" and "sproingy" but that is due to the cheaper gearbox components of their earlier releases.

I don't know what you are talking about. RAS and RIS are interchangable terms. There are many G&G's available to Canada with rail systems.

Tell us what you are looking at specifically
http://www.007airsoft.com/products/htm/aeg-gg-m16.htm

I have read and watched plenty reviews, but no comparisons *sigh*

G&G GR16 R5 (M16 RAS)
SKU # 10209


System : Electric
Action : Semi / Full
Gear Box : Version 2
Motor : 25000 RPM
Barrel : 520mm
Velocity : 360fps w 0.2g


Length : 1000mm
Weight : 3300g
Hop up : Adjustable
Battery : Large type
Magazine : 450 rd Hicap

Price : 510 + GST


- Metal upper receiver and removable rear sight assembly
- Clear polycarbonate C8 lower receiver w/ authentic maple leaf logo and markings
- Nylon fiber pistol grip, vertical grip, RAS panels and one piece hop-up chamber
- Metal Rail Adaptor System
- 14mm- threaded one piece metal outer barrel, high capacity fixed butt stock
- Steel gears, metal bearings, bearing metal spring guide, nylon fiber piston and piston head set
- Metal Parts: flash hinder, front/rear sights, outer/inner barrels, 20mm rail on upper receiver, RAS Rails, rear sight assembly, trigger, bolt stop, fire selector, ejection port cover, trigger guard, magazine, front/rear sling mounts, forward assist knob, charging handle
- Package: Airsoft gun, Magazine, Instruction manual







C.A.S. Version G&G M16 RIS
SKU # 10232


System : Electric
Action : Semi / Full
Gear Box : Version 2
Motor : 25000 RPM
Barrel : 520mm
Velocity : 360fps w 0.2g


Length : 1000mm
Weight : ?g
Hop up : Adjustable
Battery : Small type
Magazine : 450 rd Hicap

Price : 392 + GST


- Metal upper receiver, full length Rail Adaptor System and removable rear sight assembly,
- Smoked clear Combat Machine lower receiver
- Nylon fiber pistol grip, and one piece hop-up chamber
- 14mm- threaded one piece metal outer barrel, high capacity fixed butt stock
- Steel gears, metal bearings, bearing metal spring guide, nylon fiber piston and piston head set
- Metal Parts: flash hinder, front/rear sights, outer/inner barrels, 20mm rail on upper receiver, trigger, bolt stop, fire selector, ejection port cover, trigger guard, magazine, front/rear sling mounts, forward assist knob, charging handle, RAS rails.
- Package: Airsoft gun, Magazine, Manual, 9.6V 1400mA Battery, Wall Charger, Shooting Glasses.
- IMPORTANT: To keep production cost down, all C.A.S. version G&G's uses lower cost material for parts like outer barrels, buffer tubes /tracks, charging handles, body pins, gear box bushings etc. However they have the same fps output as the regular G&G line of high grade Airsoft guns. All CAS version G&G's come with 6.08mm bore inner barrels.



Is if becaues the first one is GR16?

Actually read the thing you just posted. It's written in there as well as the fact that is some difference in external furniture.

Would a tightbore barrel, better gearbox, and possibly a better spring make the G&G just as good if not better than the JG? could I buy the G&G, and buy certain select parts that are present in the JG model? (gearbox, barrel etc.)

And is this information false, or is this only true for the later models?

JG is not something to shoot for. It just has a bunch of higher performance parts out of the factory and therefore less of a hassle for those not inclined to upgrade their guns. For the G&G all you need is a new spring, bearing spring guide, and a tighterbore barrel. These are standard things that many serious airsofters will put into any gun if gaming outdoors.


This is model specific and only if that model has recieved a late 2008 refresh of the design (like the JG HK416) I was talking about the S-System because that is the one that you mentioned. The latest version has full metal reciever, m120 spring, bearing spring guide, and even has a mosfet chip installed from the factory. That said, there are many more things inside a gearbox and even the shell itself that people do upgrade.

Like I said before, just read the reviews yourself. Probably none or very few of us actually have these guns you are asking about. You need to do your own research.


Listen to The Saint and just game the gun when you buy it and see if you are happy with it. Upgrades can be a hassle when you are just starting out.

This thread is getting painful.

Ok, thanks. And I am researching myself, and this is on the noob section, so I really don't see that I am doing anything wrong. And technically, asking this is me doing research. And thank youf or being helpful.

http://buyairsoft.ca/catalog/product...roducts_id=425

JG M4A1 for $300, halfbreed. I was hoping for a s-system, but could rails be put on this gun to make it an s-system, or would it just be more with my while to get a G&G M4 which is already to my liking.

I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS :P Sorry.

G&G M16 RIS VS. G&G M4 CQB.
How much would the M16 out range the M4 by OTB?
Would the M4 be able to be upgraded to perform like the M16, and could the M16 be upgraded to perform like an M4?
I have decided on G&G. Good OTB, easy to get.

These will probably be the last questions regarding the purchase of my gun on this thread. Thank you for your patience and answers.

Don't buy that, it has the old JG crappy internals. Not worth it. But any TM compatible design means in theory you can use any airsoft accessories or rails you buy separately later.

The M16 would not outrange the M4 by much (or even anything at all). Maybe a few feet. There is tangibly no difference aside from comestic appearance. Both have the same gearbox, both have the same hop-up. The slightly longer M16 barrel might give you a slight FPS/accuracy boost and more stable flight but that translates to nothing more than a few feet. Again, any TM compatible design means you can swap and upgrade everything to your hearts content and it will work in theory.

If you'd go back and actually re-read the previous 4 pages, those question have already been answered.

We already stated that an M16 will be slightly more accurate at range than an M4. We can't tell you by how much, because it depends on a lot of different factors (hop-up, BB weight and quality, etc.).

And M16 can be converted to an M4 and vice-versa, but I wouldn't recommend it.

The front foregrips on M4's and M16s are fairly modular and you can swap them out with different ones.

OK, ok, I know that these questions are very repetitive, but I really just want to know what I am getting for my money. (Can you really blame me?)
It is just that the G&G M16 RIS is slightly more expensive than the G&G M4, and I want to know if I am getting anything more with the M16 other than extra bulkiness and an ugly ass stock.

...then go to an airsoft game and check out some guns before you buy.