New player VS experienced player psychology
 

AK guys don't take this to heart if you read this. Its nothing you have done wrong its just your dissposition. I understand the push for realism and would like to try to perserve that as much as possible mean while being able to show a few of my friends the sport with out scaring them off.

As I am sure you guys have ran into this problem before I am hoping to draw from some of your experiances. I am new to airsoft as I have stated before. How ever I have the tendacy to go balls deep into hobbies when I find them. I get very passonate about them.

My friends on the other hand... not so much. For the most part my buddies are construction workers, so most of there money goes to Tools/Drinking/Pot *we live in kelowna BC*. I don't do any of these things so I got a bit of extra money to sink into the sport.

I have brought them out to a few AK games *airsoft kelowna*. I was under the impression things were going well, they were just using some clear soft stuff but having fun. If they get shot they did not care and they played well.

How ever for some of the more experianced guys apparently having these guys along was not as enjoyable as I thought it was. Now only a few of them are close friends which I hope to get into the sport, the rest are more aquianteces. The words *paintball attidude* have been used.... I have no idea what that means as I used to be a baller.... I can see a different play style of this to paintball but I mean.... seriously whats that even mean?!

Finally to the point. How do I talk these guys into buying gear if they are not warmly welcomed to the sport. If these guys are willing to come out and play against people in full camo with AEGS, get shot up, ripped up, but still play hard... should that not be enough? I do not understand how people expect someone to come out to the first game fully kitted out.

I have tried to make the games more casual but than I lose the other side of the players.... Stuck between a rock and a hard spot if you ask me.

These are friends I would love them to get into it but if there not welcomed than they won't drop the cash on the gear.... shoot I am even buying my side arm with full expectations of lending it out just to get them to come play. My GF's AEG has been out on the field twice as much as she has... but I can't buy guns for everyone!

Any suggestions? any ways to break the ice? how did you guys get your friends into air soft? How do I deal with the AK guys? I don't want to gain the reputation of *newbie with flashy toys/ don't invite that guy he is just a baller*. Yet I don't want to seem like a snob to my friends who I have knowen for about 8 years.

DRAMA!


*ps* sorry for writing a book!

The lightbulb has to want to change.

It can be frustrating for new players even with all the gear, never mind someone with a clearsoft that's constantly outranged by the other players. Most of the crew in Kelowna runs upgraded AEGs so they can standoff and hit someone with a springer etc.

If your friends also don't have the gear like BDUs, they'll be seen a mile away, and it really won't be much fun at all.

So I guess your best bet is to first build up your kit. Then if you want to bring one or two friends out you can hang your spare goggles on them, give them a set of clothing that doesn't stand out like a sore thumb, and a decent AEG, nothing crazy, a 300+ FPS stocker with a couple spare mags.

I know if one of my friends tried to get me to spend a couple K to try out a game I'd say no dice.

And as a side note the crew in Penticton sometimes run organized games with rentals and so on, an easier way to get your feet wet.

I can't speak for the AK guys (or anyone else), but to me

sounds like a clue.

Many airsofters generally tend to be more milsim minded rather than run-and-gun oriented, and if you suddenly have people bopping around the field shooting stuff and not caring if they get hit, I can see people cursing under their breath since that really kills the experience.

Damn. Well, I guess I'll just start from the begining... So, if I'm not mistaken, you and your friends attend AK games, and the other players seem to "look down" upon your group. From what I gather from these forums, most people play Airsoft for the realism factor. Hell, thats exactly why I decided to switch from paintball to Airsoft, although I was never an avid paintball player. Perhaps the sheer lack of gear is the problem, as you thought. From what I've read, many players don't enjoy playing with other players who show up in blue jeans and a sweatshirt.

Another reason why this might be happening is that often large groups of people tend to ostracize others for many reasons, sometimes because they aren't familiar with the new individuals, other times for petty reasons, such as "He doesn't have the same level of gear", etc. In other instances, it may just be an attempt to "initiate" these new players, in an attempt to see how far they're willing to go to be a part of the sport.

Now these are all conservative explanations, I don't know exactly how bad they were behaving, or for that matter exactly what they were doing. Did you try to talk to the regular players at AK? Maybe certain players are just more fanatical about realism and military simulation than others? Without a personal experience I can't really do any more but fire off suggestions and ask for more information..

In terms of the group of individuals you're attempting to introduce to the sport, how do they act while at the game? Perhaps there was something they did to offend some players? Sometimes people can get offended by simple things, such as a glance that was misinterpretted as a challenge, or a harmless comment which was over heard. From what you've already said, it seems like your group is behaving well, they seem to be getting involved in the games, not to mention that they seem to be a "good sport" about it all. One of the most irritating things when it comes to a sport is when a teammate is not investing any effort into the activity, but from what you've said, it seems like they are trying to be active.

Was there any stand-out event that may have triggered the attitude they received from the other players?

Just trying to help out,

Cheers,

John

EDIT: Took awhile to write that post, sorry for accidentally reitterating the previous posts.

"Paintballer attitude" generally referes to how paintballers tend to play airsoft like they're playing paintball. Ie, the lack of cohesive tactics, the "spray and pray" mentality, sometimes not calling hits because they're not used to the honor system, the lack of respect for fellow players, etc.

While it is by no means necessary to be fully kitted out for your early games, it is important to recognise that many players enjoy being fully kitted and enjoy playing against people who are. It helps the suspension of disbelief, and help get people "into the gaming atmosphere." What I mean by this is that even a little bit of effort into your kit (like painting a clear gun black, wearing green instead of blue jeans) goes a long, long way in the eyes of your fellow players.

Paintball (or rather speedball) is about putting as much paint down range as possible to hit your opponents. Airsoft is about working with your team to accomplish an objective. Its about not only making the game enjoyable for yourself, but helping to make the game enjoyable for everyone else, too. This is one point a lot of ex-paintballers don't understand right away. Your friends might not care if they get hit, but their teammates might get pissed if all of a sudden 5 guys on their flank just got taken out because they were being careless.

you misunderstood. They called out when they get hit. I meant they did not QQ about it.


Yah I talked to One of the ak members to make sure it was ok, he said it is pretty relaxed so I ended up getting a good sized group together and about 6 ak guys. Than I hear talk that *we did not enjoy playing with them*

The problem I am having is I am trying to convey this to my friends... but I am just coming across as sounding like a ass that has climbed up on a high horse.

Yah I guess I can understand that. I have had to hold back my urge to bunker someone that is trying to "blind" fire me.... I even run black/white mix ammo so I am forced to aim instead of "watching the ball". as I did in paintball.

The thing is, the three guys that actually played tourny ball with me on my team are NOT the ones that have the paintball attitude... its the ones that have never really played paintball other than rec ball... maybe they are not cut out for this sport.

Playing with people that don't give a shit isn't any fun. It's like playing any game with people who intentionally lose and have no desire to win. It very quickly becomes not fun.

This is sort of a strange contrast to my experience with the South Island Rangers. I've only attended one of their games, and I was admittedly not very good, but they were still very friendly towards me. I think I was still a little annoying, but when you make an active effort to follow the advice of the more experienced players, I think they start to realize you're genuinely trying to get into the sport.

My advice? Go ahead and ask the AK guys directly why they didn't enjoy having your friends along, ask how to make it better next time, then convey the message to your friends. Just like any sport, I think the best way to get the players to accept you into the fold is to take initiative and start heeding the wisdom of the more experienced and knowledgeable.

Oh trust me I have asked some of the more experianced players ALOT of questions. Infact I am pretty sure Ktown militia has my msn on Ignore now from all my pestering *hey does this... what if I do.... how many does....* questions

I talked to them here and suggested some green clothing, after some tongue in cheek jokes about wearing there High vis vests they agreed to it. Also offered to spray paint his gun with some of my Black paint.

In my experiences with new people. The only ones that ever bothered me were the ones that didn't really care or didn't really try. Nothing against your friends but it seems like that category for them.

you can't Make
 

your friends participate at the level you want them to..

Sounds to me like they a perceived as "tourists" by the regular players.

the investment in gear and guns illustrates a commitment to the activity that will win over veteran players.

You are committed.. buying gear and guns and showing up at games with more "stuff" every time you appear.

If you have a bunch of "clearsoft rangers" in tow you will find yourself lumped in with them and written off as "not serious"

This is a game.. and it is a hobby but people take games and hobbies seriously as they spend a lot of time and money - resources on it.

for many... investing in proper gear and weapons is augmented by going to events with like minded persons.

Having a contingent of "tourists" just there to goof around in no gear and crap guns spoils the experience for many. They may have played to all the rules.. taken every shot received... but it still just does not "feel" right.

Every event is not made for every type of player.. i'm sure if you look around you will find groups of less serious players to just have some fun with, where gear and guns are less important.

You should take your friends to those sorts of games.. some of your friends will likely end up committing more resources to gear and guns and in time you will find you "fit in" more with the more committed players.

good guns and good gear so not make a player good... but it does illustrate a commitment that other players recognize in a first impression basis.

That's because when you're creeping through the bush looking out for NVA in your period kit and M16A1 and feeling a slight squish with every step from the water seeped into your jungle boots, face it - you're not in a farmer's field in the prairies on a Saturday anymore. You're in Vietnam and it's 1971. Then some guy with sneakers, a Metallica T-Shirt and a clear AK-47 jumps out of the woods at you, gets shot, then spends his "dead" time 20 feet away loudly talking about jeeps while you try to lay an ambush, it's a serious buzzkill.

That being said, the more "serious" milsim type stuff is sometimes an acquired taste and there's honestly not anything wrong with non-serious plain old trigger time. It just doesn't mesh well with the other end of the spectrum.

The two guys above me hit the nail on the head till it's a dead horse.

The Kelowna crew is more "FilmSim" than "MILSIM" for sure. It's also not a battle of the Gold Card with the highest limit, there's guys out there who have OD gear, & one rifle with a couple highcaps & they'll outplay the big spenders any day of the week.

Your best bet is to make your own bones before you start bringing a crew out, it's way less hassle as you can concentrate on yourself.

I guess I worry to much about what others are thinking. I understand what you mean by that being a total buzz kill.

I talked to both parties and got alot more insight from both of them. *thanks ktown*. The *baller* guys understand that they have to try and look as close to the part as possible. Milsims are of course out of the question for them, and mostly for me until my stuff finally arrives from hong kong *refreshes tracking page again*... nope still not here.

When I talked to some of my friends that came along I was surprised to here that they were actually intimidated when we rolled up and they saw about 5 guys all standing there in full camo with AEGS. kinda felt out of place with there clear soft and tshirts. I can understand that.

I let them know that they are welcome aslong as they atleast wear green and have a militaristic mind of it... like *if I get shot I am dead not just out... gotta protect my squad and watch our flanks*

what do you mean by Filmsim?

I'm glad you see finally coming around after ASC backing up my comments that we shared. I was gonna stay out of this but whatev.

Everything that has been said was exactly how myself and others feel.

We both know now that your boys had a different idea of what airsoft was.

Like I've told you before, you guys are totally welcome, its just most of us like the "filmsim" (Dan you coined that one ;)) and would rather see a body in camo than a bright yellow gun with a guy that doesnt think eyewear was needed and plain clothes.

Anyways, Im sure you've re-thought what has transpired and we can move on to bigger and better things!!:D

As for your q ont the filmsim thing, I think Dan was trying to say that most of us like the role playing as much as the realism of the sport.

In a paintball perspective, think about it as gun owners vs renters. Do you really want them on your team? Not really, they don't take sport as seriously and are just there to have a good time. You see them just as targets and useless bodies that are fun to shoot at, that's about it. You have to remember airsoft is not only a sport where you shoot people, but you also have a role to play, and in order to do that, you need to act and look the part. You are trying to actively simulate an environment the best you can.

FilmSim = Firing two guns while jumping through the air.

MILSIM = Someone giving you the gears because you've got the wrong shoelaces for a US Army Ranger, or have 68 round mags instead of 30s.

I like to go back and forth between the two spots myself.

A real hardcore milsimer would turn purple at some of the stuff that passes on the field, and the casual players feel eight inches tall when they show up.

I think I remember your group showing up at one of the games last year. they are definatly good guys to play with, they kept with the rules and diddn't complain when they got shot.

Nope just started this year, wasn't us.

Ah yes so I understand the difference now. Yah some of the milsimmers I am sure would fart a blue duck when they see me... I can't descide on a camo so I got Martpat, Cadpat, Flecktar, a green smeagh, Dickie work boots, 30 round AK mags, and a Beretta m9...
I would like to get into milsim but I mean... If other hardcore players make you feel eight inches tall as you put it... where is the fun in that.

Don't think there are very many like that in AK. But I hve not met many yet.

Mind you I would do well in a desert combat type milsim :)

Speaking from a Penticon point of view: we have noticed that there are 3 distinct groups running out of Kelowna and they dont enjoy playing with each others group. We were baffled as to why a group of roughly 30 airsofters dont all get together to play.

There are various reasons given when we ask why but what it comes down to is that one or two 'key' people in one or two of the groups drive other players away with their poor attitude and lack of honourable play. Some of it is simply the attitude (which is poor at best) and for others it is not taking hits and complaining about everything (which means when those folks show at our field we tend to have staff follow them around to be sure they take their hits). I wont name names but I have met a few of those folks and have to agree that with them around you wont find too many new people enjoying the AK scene.

So if it isnt about milsim/filmsim its about dickish attitude vs friendly attitude ;)

I think there is a certain balance that is required. No need to go all-out but some basics are essential to "fit in".

I take an example from live-action medieval re-enactement/roleplaying (which I was heavily in before airsoft).

We had people of many types :

1. Full chainmail and real leather garb with expensive latex weapons.

2. Some wore more basic clothing and some look-alike or fake armor with simple duct-tapped weapons.

3. Others would come in the game with little more then a pair of jeans, a t-shirt and a sword.

The first 2 types are perfectly fine. The third type just destroys the mood of the game and is usually not very serious in it's type of play.

Not everyone wants a full set of advanced gear and but some basics are essential to make sure you fit in the game and do not affect the overall mood. Airsoft is a game. Gear is not essential to have fun but airsoft is also a game with a mood/style and it's important to at least not look out of place.

I'm a fairly hardcore milsim (30rnders,and full uniform but I'm not doing a specific impression, moreso to not get shit from people for impersonation than anything) And I LOVE playing against casual players, in skirmishes. The group I play with have been playing for years and we are now plying with another group that is fairly new (all have hicaps, hunter camo and mags stuffed in pockets). I love playing with them though cause it feels like a guerrilla vs military fight. And Hell, having a bunch of noodish casual players on the field just makes the seasoned players look all that much better. THOUGH at a true milsim (BW series and the like) I dislike seeing people with clear guns or hicaps stuffed in pockets and no tac gear, takes away from the environment that is created by the game.

Agreed Silverthorn- and clubs like the SCA have had to form rules to get people to show up in gear that doesnt ruin the mood for others.

Showing up in hunters orange for a game where you are supposed to hide just isnt cool :D In the least wearing all green or all black pants and shirts is pretty much the lowest acceptable expectation (though when people show up for their first game ever its ok to cut them some slack).

That said I know our local club is fairly accepting of a wider variety of gear- clear and CANSoft guns are totally accepted for example (its just that most of us prefer the real steel look). Some guys do a Mad Max sort of Anarchy look and it works great as a 'Red Team' merc look. As far as we are concerned each player should be concerned with their own gear and not worry so much about what the other guys wear or runs with.

This sort of mentality is pretty alien for most airsoft fields from what we hear?

Who cares!! Fuck em, and light em up when you play! Once again you are worried about what people think. You've gotten a kit put together pretty quick dart, and thats sweet, it shows you are interested. Dont worry what other people think and just go play, experience it, enjoy it! There wasnt this much drama till you started playing mind games with yourself.

If you do a search on here for threads about AK, you will see this has been going on for a while.

Like Millerbro said, bullshit has been going on for while. I came onto the scene last year at the tail end of it and tried reuniting the groups and there was no budge. Therefore a couple splinter cell groups have arised and the new guys have to suffer with small numbers. I feel "why cant everyone play together" kind of attitude, but its so fucked up that the other groups dont want to come out and play or share where they aree playing. It's really sad.

Now with me being in and out of town, and not playing an active role in the Kelowna Gamedays, you can see that nothing is going on. I've definelty been trying to amp up the scene in Kelowna but its a battle. Its gonna take the communitys help to get things going again and make Kelowna a hub for airsoft.

Anyways, I definelty dont lose sleep over this, but hope the scene gets better.

You shouldnt fret over it Ktown- like I say guys like you and Danke have really turned the mentality of AK around in a very short time. When we do get guys from the different groups showing up at our games at the same time we find they get along with each other great so I suspect that there is hope for a somewhat reunited AK scene (like I said its one or two bad apples that seem to drive the numbers down).

Dart- airsoft is one of the toughest sports to get into because for the longest time there was a bit of an elitist attitude that ran most new players out of the sport. Hell even ASC acknowledged this when they made the Newbie zone as they were tired of some 'pro-airsofters' shitting on every newb. Like Ktown says stick with it and dont let the haters ruin your game and you will find that in a short amount of time you are in tight with some good crew and some even better games.

(I know you are from SA Dan but still you do a great job of supporting airsoft all along the valley)

The other thing to remember is like you said- not everyone is cut out for airsoft.

We have had that sort out here too- one of our local players (who is an excellent example of an airsofter) had a bunch of work buddies come out and it became obvious they were drunk when one of them pee'd into a trench where the field owner was. They were loud and rude and we were not keen to ever see any of them ever again. Needless to say we dont allow drunks to play, and if you are found to be drunk you get booted, but we also have had to become a lot more strict with safety and honour issues too.

Some of it is because we have started running highly structured teen games and we dont put up with any guff from people under 18 if they want to earn the right to play on the field, but mostly it is because we want a more professional attitude from ALL the players. (btw we have found that the underage players are very respectful and play safe because they know they are there on strict terms, on the other hand some of the 'adults' are so problematic that we have had to ban one and a few others are on a short leash lol)

Most of the people seem to appreciate the increased standards actually and we have witnessed more turn around with new players coming back and following the lead of more experienced players.

Well I like to get into this as i been playing in kelowna for the past three years or so now.

I seen and herd it all and its not as simple as black and white.

Fisrt and most important to me is eye protection. I feel a sealed Goggle is a must but alot of peeps use safety Glasses witch I feel are unsafe to use since I hit someone in the side of his eye dering a game forchantly he was not injerd permanently. But when a club can not even discus and agree on what safe proper eye protection is how could we get anything eles done to move forward to make a safe and fun environment for all to play in.

When it comes to not haveing the gear I know how they feel. When I first started I felt a little out of place and was ridiculed for my cheap e-hobby set up. I simply did not have the cash to drop on a new kit so it took some time and I still have not gotten the ideal kit that suits me, so its just a matter of time and trying new gears untill I find a kit that works for me.

Sometimes I feel it comes down to the haves and have nots.

But for me if a peep shows up to a game I try to be as helpfull as I can offering advice and info to the best of my knowledge of the workings of the guns and where to pick up gears & Accessories.

Then when it comes to the sandbox politics of airsoft in kelowna I have very little to offer as Im keeped out of the loop since Ill play with anyone that shows up to a game and not worry so much about zombie players or how equipped thay are.

I like to think im very forgiving when it comes down to it but theres somethings that upset me like players threatening other players with violence.

good points zone69. 'Specially on Eye protection, it is key as some fool shooting his eye out doesnt do our sport any good.

Dart- really the AK scene is a good one in terms of some very good players making the best of a tough situation. Zone is another example of one of the good players who has always been helpful on the forums and in person. The best thing for any new player to do is to find the players who do all the behind the scenes work to keep the sport running and learn from them.

On another note when it comes to helping peeps or training them they have to be willing to listen or hear what your trying to tell them.

Unforturely I can only handle training one peep at a time and im by far an expert on this kinda stuff. I just use my common sence on the most part.

Take K-town for example, I started with helping him with his gun and how it worked and how to upgrade it and incourged him to pass on this knowledge to others. Now im working with him on tactics and movements and I hope he will pass his experience off to others.

For the most part if a peep is willing to Learn and become a part of the club and Commuity so im not wasting my time I have no problem helping then out.

So im trying to say if more peeps would be more upfront and willing to give out this secret INFO so they can pass it on to others we would have a stronger base of players for the kelowna club.

Unforuterly for some players this is not just a hobby it a business as well so this INFO holds value in as making cash for there business venchers and I get the feeling that im steping on some peeps toes by giving out my INFO/Sevices for free.