Cont'd from Airsoft & Law Thread
 

I have been playing paintball for the better half of 20 yr's and have watched it grow from the so called "outlaw sport" into the socially accepted sport it is today. Which includes watching soccer moms go to the local pro shop and buy their 13 yr old kid a complete milisim set up with tactical vest, swat styled helmet, BT Delta and the whole nine yards. I can say the the BT Delta along with a few other paintball guns look pretty realistic to say the least. So I would argue the "Back to square one" theory you have put up any day of the week, it's simply not true. There will always be those that are against it but until steps are taken to put the sport in a more positive light it will always be thought of as a no no hush hush sport. Change has to start somewhere just like it did in paintball. CAPS is a prime example of ways to make change to put a more positive light on the sport. The change will come sooner or later... it's just a matter of time.

As a field owner I can tell you that waivers work just fine and I am speaking from experience. Unlike our American counter parts our justice system puts more than "Its just a piece of paper" mentality behind a signed waiver when challenged in court. Insurance is there for those occasions that if something does go wrong that organizers and or field owners have a back up to them loosing their shirt or not being able to pay. The insurance is there to ensure the customer and operators well being in the event that something does go wrong outside of normal circumstances. Myself in charities I have donated to, gate fee's, raffle funds etc. are given to the charity. Bare operating costs are kept back with the majority going toward the charity itself. Bare operating costs being paying the staff or for specialized equipment needed for the event. I have never had any problems in that dept. with getting a sizable amount for the charity we were giving a donation to. I rely on my regular business to cover the routine operating costs on charity events. So I will have to disagree with your summation of the charity issue.

Cheers & Happy New Year
BlackRain.

Well, paintball evolved from play that was very similar to what we do now, back in it's "sketchy" days. The evolution has taken it to the speedball arena with no resemblance whatsoever to what we do. That is what the media shows, that is what the general public sees on sports channels. The fashions that are sold in paintball stores overwhelmingly support that. There are no paintbal guns, they are markers, or the word "gun" is applied in the same level of danger or feeling as "water gun" for the soccer-mom crowd.

While not all paintball is played like kiddie speedball, what I see out at the paintball fields I play is 90% that way, no bush play, no tactics, just dump the paint as best you can.

For those out in society who don't play these sorts of games, the association with guns is very frightening. They have little to know idea what it's all about, and the idea of people running around with guns, any guns real or not, means that they must be subversives, quasi-militia, terrorists, whatever. Because they don't play our game means that it has no positive value (otherwise they would be doing it), and as such it must be harmful and negative. And you wouldn't believe the arguments they will come up with to justify that position.

There is a great fear of guns looming in this country, mainly centered in urban areas, where access to and use of guns is primarily by the criminal element, with innocent citizens becoming casualties. When you factor that in to the thought processes of a generally ignorant public, it becomes frightening that people would wear camo, run around with guns, and use co-ordinated tactics and teamwork to simulate combat and death. They must be training for something, right, because how can war and death be fun?

I'm not saying that making the sport of airsoft mainstream is impossible, but it would have to become a sport. It is actually now a hobby, with no standardized rules, no means of scoring, no defined team structure, no play venues or parameters for them. To make it a sport, you would have to eliminate the way we play currently, and turn it into something like speedball, or someone will have to invent a standardized game set, and make tournaments available for them. That would be a terrible turn-off for most players out there.

So, which way should it go?

Any way you do it would mean drastic changes, to both the hobby itself, and everything that it involves. People don't like change, and just because you believe it's inevitable does not make it welcome or palatable. And change is only inevitable if you let it happen. Many players will not.

OK, now I'm drunk.

OK. My first post of the new year.

Paintball does have woodsball still which is closer to Airsoft. Also there are "speedball" kinda games for airsoft but they still tend to lean towards a woodsball kinda deal.

IIRC there are "tournaments" at some facilities. I believe there was a CQB take the balloon kinda thing tournament running somewhere (Was it XT?).

The difference between paintball and airsoft in my mind is that one for the most part has "unrealistic guns", sure there are things like RAP4 or whatever but the majority of the "markers" don't have real life counterparts that exist. This gives the impression of a "water-gun" type of association to paintball markers.

Airsoft on the other hand is "realistic and scary" for the most part. Almost everyone has a gun who has a real life counterpart (Glock's, AR15's, Sig Sauer's, G36's, MP5 etc.). Save for the "JG Dragon" (Yes, really a shell over an M4) and VSR-10 there are little other "made up" guns in the airsoft world. People associate our guns as guns because for the most part they have real life counterparts which are used to hurt others both in crime and in war, whereas people don't really hurt you with a paintball gun only leave a welt (if you're SWAT and have a pepper ball gun it's still not like it's a lethal "shoot to kill" kind of thing).

One thing as a community is that we have to be united and stop bickering among ourselves, take a good well thought out idea and run with it. If we fight among ourselves that just sets up our demise because we are split into factions thinking one idea is the "right and best way".

In a nutshell, the guys who roll into that other thread with a plan to save airsoft all come across selling the need for somebody to appear with a “top down” plan that will change the law in Canada in regards to airsoft.

As part of a happy coincidence with saving the game the price of tools of the trade will be slashed to the US levels by allowing US and Asian retailers to ship across the border with no restrictions on what AEGs, GBBs, etc. are sent to Canada.

The plans may be dressed up with other tones of concern about the faint flame of the game being snuffed out but after they've been picked at a bit the bones of the argument are always the same.

The calm voices that intercede always suggest some sort of loosely allied grassroots program to improve the image of airsoft face to face. Now you'll never win over the shrill curtain twitchers in the bigger cities (and don’t think they aren’t in small towns either) even if you turn AEGs into super soakers. Over time you can start to win over that silent majority.

For the folks who want to get a M4 from Airsoft Atlanta that's just too much of a commitment of time and effort. The dilettantes are the ones killing the sport, not the powers that be. The ones who dip in their toe, quit, and then bad mouth airsoft to anyone unfortunate enough to be stuck in the same place as they are.

So in the meantime keep playing, introduce your friends and family to what you do. Go out and spend time in the Community and volunteer on school trips or litter cleanup days and become a leader on your own merits. Keep your hobby secondary to being a good citizen and then after time you’ll find yourself in a position to change the public perception of what this activity is.

The catch is (and the deal breaker for most of the empire builders) is this will take years and years to do. Maybe by the time my kid is in his 30s this kind of activity won't be lumped in with the evil drug dealers and the like.

Oh boy... Can someone explain to me why the fuck someone feel the absolute need to make this "GAME" commercial and country wise popular and socially accepted?!?!

WTF! To be honest, I think the quality of this activity is due to the good control and relatively low number of players.

Like it has been said earlier we cannot afford to start to divide into multiple ideological groups. If this sport has to come to something that the society accept and tolerate it will by itself. A little like paintball. No need to speed up things for once! One day CBC will come to a game and do a report for the 6 o'clock news and tell everyone that if you see guys in full army set up and M4's, no worries! It must be airsoft guys playing a game!.... Yea right!

AEG replica's = Not legal in a way till now
Paintball shits = A 13 years old kid can almost buy one anytime or order it from US.

We don't go to law and try to change it will come to us!

Till then ( super public national airsoft 100% legit airsoft clubs...:rolleyes: ) enjoy your quality games whit your dear ASC teammates and friends!

There is about 2-3 quality games a month around my area. WTF you want more?!?

Some people believes that has already happened. Most recently, the whole thing over whether guns with transparent lower receiver are indeed acceptable airsoft guns, just to name one.

Yes, right, as in it's already happened once. It wasn't CBC, I think it was Global or something.

Still not legal. The only reason guns with transparent receiver'd guns get in is precisely because they are not replica firearm by interpretation of the legal definition.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to take control of one's own fate.

(sigh) Just let the game mature by itself. :rolleyes:

That's exactly my point.

Same old arguments
 

Participation in the game of "airsoft" is not in any way illegal , never was ..

the "sport" is just a legitimate as paintball or lazer tag... it is in fact 100% the same game.

there is no need to "legitimize" airsoft... it already is legitimate.

wasting effort talking about " legalizing" airsoft simply draws resources away from the real task.

Legitimizing access to replica firearms for use in legal shooting sports.

I contest the classification regarding airsoft and .43/.45/.50paintball "guns" as replica firearms. A group was trying to ban .68 paintball as well. It was always demonstrated that a replica firearm would look and function as the real firearm using blank cartridges; so real that even on close inspection they are difficult to differentiate. Airsoft and paintball in no way replicate the fuction of a real firearm. It's clear to me the people who banned metal airsoft had no real engineering or scientific background or experience with these sports. Nobody can make a real firearm with an aluminum airsoft barrel and receiver; there is not enough metal present to machine and bore and the metal is too soft.

Replica firearm is defined in the Criminal Code as a matter of form, not function.

When was "metal airsoft" banned?

Jan 2008

The Saint, I was informed it was because of the metal receivers. Did they changed their reason?

It was never an issue of "metal" receiver, but rather opaque receivers. Since replica firearm is a definition based on visual resemblance, the material has never been a determining factor. In that sense, an airsoft gun with opaque, plastic receiver is no less a replica firearm than an airsoft gun with opaque, metal receiver.

That is not good for these sports.

good video. Are any of the guys participating in the video on airsoft canada?

It's a consistent reality for the last 10 years. We got to where we are despite of it.

Almost all of them, if not all of them.

isn't there sticky's on this topic?

in the last year that ive been playing ive seen this topic come up in so many different forms that its really starting to get irritating.

i think cpt.flan and burningashes summed it up very well!

this is just the way the sport is in canada,its going to take a long time for it to become accepted publicly if it ever does get that far.


thanks
mike

edit*

Yes Megaman, there is a sticky on this.

The intent was this particular thread was to discuss airsoft charity. I suggest people focus on that.

So we're doing what now?

What i don't understand is why no one simply makes AEG the same as real guns (in legal terms). So that AEG = RS = Need PAL/RPAL. Is the Canadian government really that busy or to scared of soccer moms? Airsofters still pay their taxes don't they?...

I have much more freedom with my PTW than I will ever have with my Bushmaster.

And then what happens when the U.S. goes after another AWB, how can us civilized and responsible Canadians ever allow the Americans to have tougher gun laws than us? Guess what happens next.

It is possible to turn airsoft into maintstream through a grassroots approach. Im talking about building a field and rent out the 007airsoft clear style guns to kids with the whole signed waiver etc etc etc. I guess from there you can move on to legitimizing the whole NON-clear receiver issue. perhaps im just whistling dixie but to me, if we want this sport to become more positively known to the public, then having a legitimate place of business with Canada legal guns is the best way. CAPS, which was mentioned before, is also such a way of putting a positive light on this hobby

i asked the same question. the thing is, if that were the case, then it would have to follow the no auto, (possibly) 5 rounds of ammo/mag rule. Now it gets tricky cause with .22, you can have as many bullets as the mag can carry. And since airsoft is the same diameter as a .22 and fires considerably slower than a .22, i personally dont see the problem either. Still, the ultimate solution would be to create a whole new form of licensing for airsoft, such as an AAL (Airsoft Acquisition License) that is dedicated solely to the acquiring of airsoft guns, from registering them to the government etc etc. the problem with this idea, and even the previous one, is that to change or to create such legislature would cost a lot of money and strain on the system, to a point where (to them) it isn't worth it. Now if there was a sizeable tax return on it (i.e.: the amount of money they would receive from taxing the purchase of airsoft guns), then the government would probably enact it, but until that is proven, airsoft will remain the shady form of gray that it is. i hope that helped clarify any issues as that is my understand to date. if anyone would like to add to mine or (most likely) correct it, please do so!

Because the issue of replica firearm didn't face the user-based challenges it does now back in 1995. Law makers then didn't have any reason to cover airsoft guns, because there weren't that many in Canada back then. So they setup a legal situation where they now cannot require PAL/RPAL for replica firearm unless they open up the Criminal Code and probably the Firearms Act. Big can of worms there.

And really, even if they did want to execute a PAL/RPAL scheme for replica firearm, it'd be somewhat a ridiculously overkill of a solution for both sides.

Not having airsoft PAL/RPAL has nothing to do with soccer moms or taxes. Honestly, people are too quick to resort to soccer moms as explanations.