anderson order
 

afther 6 mounth of wait anybody have news about the anderson&anderson order in inspection since december 2007?

I would say that it doesn't look good.

The last message I got from Ray about this was that he had filed the paperwork with the courts, this was back on June 21

but other wise, ya it don't look good which means I'm out $768.

can someone outline what happened for those of us who didn't follow it from the beginning?

Are we talking about the subcontracted A&A order of Ray or the last, failed shipment of Mark?

IIRC, both are still in custody, right?

guns where ordered csba is holding them with no release date IIRC

and it looks like whomever spearheaded the group order isn't doing anything about it....

I think this thread and it's mixed/mis-information has lead you to be confused.

Ld

That is why I asked someone to explain it further http://www.airsoftcanada.com/images/...s/rolleyes.gif

Yeah I thought they just got hammered into shutting down...

Arrested?

WTF?

Well AFAIK I still have not gotten my KJW 1911, but I couldn't be bother now to push for a resolution....

The gun was ordered in Dec of 2007...

I'm down one KA FN FAL for the Dec 2007 group order and down three GBB's and one GBB Carbine. No info after repeated polite emails from A&A and no info from Ray. No Carbine but got crap loads of mags leaves me with crap loads of paper weights.

And you dont want to sell the mags because you just might get the gun :D

Happened to me once, sold a crap load of armalite mags because I figured I was getting away from armalites and now I wish Id kept them instead of selling them cheap http://www.airsoftcanada.com/images/...n_banghead.gif

It's a long story that has been discussed here a number of times. Repeating would not lead to anything positive.

People who were in on the order should be in touch with Ray, who should be responding to them.

Ld

and from what it sounds like Ray isn't replying to inquiries, thus the head of the order isnt doing anything about it....

Well, if someone makes a post in the public forum for all to see, it's to be expected that some people who aren't actually involved may be curious to know what's happening. Perhaps to find where the fault lies to avoid dealing with that themselves?

read what swat five-six posted ray is doing something but has more to do. courts are slow its not 7-11.

I hate to say it but I also lost out on an A&A order.

After many email exchanges and discussions about solving the problem it was completly dropped by A&A and any further communication attempt I make just goes into Mark's spam folder I presume.

I've written off the $500.00+ as a loss and due to the amount of time I gave them to correct the situation I can't recover this on a credit card protection program, and the value is too low to claim on house insurance so it's just a total loss.

Just left with a bad taste in my mouth on that particular store. I can't say anyone else's experince will mirror mine, I'm just sharing with the comunity.

Damn skippy that and at 15 mags (longer style mind you, 15 shot) you can throw out your back picking up the box there in. :)

Plus one on not responding, sent him well over half a dozen emails no response I know he's just the middleman but he did say he would use legal action haven't seen any as of yet (or heard). The last bit of gossip I heard on the Dec07 group order is that Mark has nothing of that order left and will not credit Ray or other people. On the last order before he shut down (March??) that shipment was in country but is currently being held by CBSA. This is gossip I heard mind you so take it with a grain of salt (or block).

Yeah and with people posting things like this:
Thats why I posted what I did. If I had thousands of dollars worth of stuff that belonged to other people that was on the line Id be damned sure to send messages to all of the owners explaining every single step....

My understanding is that Ray doesn't have the money, Mark does, hence the lawsuit.

Anyway, how about we leave the speculation and comments to those involved, instead of mudslinging bs 8th hand information?

Yes, Ray did file a lawsuit but Mark did not reply to anything even though it was sent by lettermail.

I was in contact with Ray last week and he said he was going to court soon to appeal his case but wasn't really sure how it would work out simply because the fact that we're dealing with selling airsoft.

I'll have to tell you guys the story sometime of how Mark Anderson fucked me out of a $1,000 gun. After I essentially launched him into this business selling CA guns here a couple of years back, he showed me no loyalty or offered any assistance. A real class act, this guy.

Funny thing is, he's still selling guns to people he knows last I heard.

Someone might be inclined to telephone his business, A&A Surplus, at 204-476-2963 and inquire.

I think this is one of the many reasons why "group orders" shouldn't be allowed. Airsoft is too grey of an area for even a retailer to guarantee that a gun will make it....

Even though this is hearsay, I predicted this to my teammates shortly after he posted about shutting down.

I too am in the process if fileing a lawsuit aganst Mark, He has been ignoreing my emails and phone calls.

the funny part is that you try to complain about any of the retailers left and people spit on you for it and tell you "not to rock the boat". Personally if you want to operate as a "retailer" you should be held liable for all the money you take!

+1

If you look back to the original "A&A is closing" thread from last winter, I also said that this was more than likely what he was going to do with at least his remaining stock, because when he shut down, he had an assload of guns in stock. Whether or not he's still importing in small numbers for people he knows is just a guess.

But like you said, it's hearsay until someone who's dealt with him recently can confirm it.

Which why would they if they have their own private importer? http://www.airsoftcanada.com/images/...s/rolleyes.gif

Group orders as such for product not in country on the site here were banned after Chase's 416 group buy ripoff.

A "retailer" loosing a shipment should have no bearing on the people left twisting in the wind. If they loose a shipment then the Canadian markup they make on the stuff that does get through is supposed to be there to cover off this circumstance.

At the very least said retailed should refund the profit they would have made in the sale when a seizure happens and then all other avenues for a re-order are closed.

Making your regular margin on the product regardless if it's DOA or never even makes it to the customer is not an honest way to life your life.

group orders were not banned, they just have to be cleared by the admins first. But yes a refund should be given but so many times Ive read that refunds on seized orders are not given....

Yes it would have been more accurate to say sleazy fly by night group buys are now forbidden, but those words can hurt feelings.

:D

Yup. Agreed. I'm sure that the people that still do deal with him do so in a very hush-hush manner. For all anyone knows, he may have received the shipment that was held up in customs and is selling them off quietly.

If thats the case then the law really does need to get involved, but as others have said no proof has come forward.

But something should be done if he's not responding to anyone. Besides the airsoft section wasnt his only business, he also has the surplus section so it's not like he's poor and broke....

Exactly. To me, that's quite underhanded.

Okay here's the skinny for the new guys.
As far as I know, there was one large redwolf order made before he officially stopped importing airsoft. I was told the order was being held up in customs, it's predicted release date being sometime in september 2008. I have asked, but I have not received a tracking number for this order.
Mark himself is busy with real life and has been busy moving around the country (business related of course).

Any comments or statements you may have, please be sure that they are 100% truthful.

A&A is not doing secret underground orders. the last order is still in customs hands.

Making good on thousands of dollars you've taken from people and not delivered on should be a primary part of your "busy real life"! That is a poor excuse and of no comfort to those of us who have lost money here. We don't all live in mansions like Mark Anderson and that money is worth a lot more to us.

Excuses are unacceptable. Mark needs to make good on a lot of deals and sooner than later. I appreciate your situation Frank but I don't think you'll find a lot of sympathy here sticking up for the guy.

Do you have the facts from both sides?

I think the main thing is Mark ignoring everyone! Just random update emails would do so much for people. At the moment it seems as though Mark just cut and run with the money....

Gryphon personally lost $1,000 to Mark as he just got into the airsoft business, read Gryphon's earlier posts....

I'm not taking sides here, I'm just stating the facts of what I know. I personally have 5 AEG's on that order.

I have a fairly expensive pistol on order.. but it didn't come from redwolf... It was a WGC exclusive pistol... but apparently it's being held in customs... which is slightly fishy.

Not to state the obvious, but have you tried to recover the funds via your credit card issuers?

I'm sure a lot of people paypaled/EMTed/DDed the funds, but for those of you who paid with a credit card I had no issues with reversing the charges.

Then again, I was only down for a 100$ for a slide so maybe the amount has something to do with it, but I strongly encourage you guys to try in case it's not already done.

Usually there is a time limit is there not on reversing credit card charges?

Or there are those of us that didn't pay by credit card or had other arrangements.

I don't believe so. I worked doing cc processing and hadn't encountered any charge that couldn't be reversed if the customer is insistent enough. The reason being that credit card processors only allow a very small percentage of all processed transactions to be chargedback otherwise they suspend the account pending investigation.

If you did pay by credit card and are unwilling to wait and see what time will tell, then you ought to be able to contact your credit card company and claim you were defrauded as you did not receive the item you ordered.

I have to admit, I would usually defend Mark as I've had nothing but good dealings with him, but it seems that more and more people are coming forward and saying he is not providing any customer service or living up to his end of agreements. It's slightly unnerving to know that someone with a legitimate business who seemed trustworthy may in fact not be.

Thanks for clerifying that up for us!

The only thing I can think of is go visit Mark personally and talk to him about all this....

Good luck jumpin the concrete fence, watch out for the dogs with the bees in their mouths. :)

mark smells fishy...

ROFLMAO.

There's more truth to that than people realize. Oh the mental image makes me laugh.

So you spend 1000+ dollars on a toy? Good Fucking Greif! There's always a risk with airsoft, yeah maybe Mark should be alittle more forthcoming with info but cut the guys some slack, his hands are tied too.

From an outside perspective, it seems that Mark has taken payment for the item, yet said item will not be delivered to the buyer as promised as it has been confiscated by the CBSA.

Where I stand, it looks like Mark should either return the money for the item if it cannot be delivered at all or respond to inquiries about said item so the buyer doesn't shit bricks, so to speak.

As a business, it is his responsibility to ensure that he makes good on any agreements made with a customer. He may be busy, but completely disregarding any attempts to contact him either via e-mail or phone is unacceptable. For any entity that considers itself a business, this is completely unprofessional.

I've had the privilege of dealing with Mark face to face so I haven't had any issues. I've also only bought from what he had in stock, so again, I haven't had any issue. I'm playing Devil's advocate here because I would hate to see a number of people take legal action for something that could easily be resolved outside of a courtroom, if only both parties involved in a deal would cooperate.

That is pretty much my take on this as well.

But wouldn't that require Mark to actually return phone calls and emails to people?

Um yeah, hence needing both parties (Mark and customer) to cooperate.

As far as chargebacks go, I believe you have a year from the moment of purchase in which you can claim fraud.

My law courses are a tad far this morning, but I'm under the impression that fraud, a criminal act, can be persecuted either at any time without restriction or within a 3/5/10 year window depending on the classification of the offence.

Bah, for the fraud part I'm basicly pretty sure that on a criminal level time is not that much of an issue, however for different recovery methods it might be. I waited something like 45 days before calling quits and asking for the chargeback. Pretty sure you have 3/6/12 months do do so yourselves depending on the institution.

From what I can tell from the Anderson & Anderson prices charged for AEGs when they were doing orders is that they had the typical 200-300%+ markup. IE: A $275 CA G36K at cost was invoiced for $750 for my friend.

That markup is supposed to be there for retailers to cover for lost/held shipments and is accepted by both buyer and vendor as the price for doing AEG business in Canada.

There is no excuse for not partially refunding people's lost orders when you have the built in margin of safety in that markup. Simply pocketing the markup as pure profit, cutting off communications with your paying and owed customers is even worse and frankly, even criminal. If they really did contest this in court however, I can see legal costs eating up all the money made from any airsoft deals.

I think people just want regular updates and contact regarding the situation so it doesn't spiral into another Props Canada type situation.

No statute of limitations?

I took a law class back in high school and we touched on that bit briefly, but I don't remember much of it... it was a first period class... the only thing that got me out of bed in the morning.

On one side I understand that there are a lot of people that feel they've been ripped off. It sucks that our fragile sport is infected with this sort of bullshit that continues year after year. I remember around the start of my career, the props canada bullshit that started. I figured people might learn from that and stop getting in on group orders for things that wernt in country. It seems this hasn't happend.

On the other side, I see a guy who definatly needs to get smacked in the mouth. Try your chargebacks and your legal threats, really. If this guy is actually doing what half of you say, he's already thought about it and decided he couldnt care less if you win. Personally, if someone did that to me, I'd find it much easier to let a couple of crackheads loose in his business rather than deal with the slow response times of lawyers.

Good luck to everyone... And sorry to the old boys for dropping the Props bomb :)

Pre-order = crap shoot
 

When you put money down on something that is not in country and ready to ship.. with full knowledge that CBSA can seize anything at any time. You aknowledge that your money may be lost.

You choose to give your money to someone who is willing to take the risk of ATTEMPTING to get restricted items in country. It is unreasonable to expect that person to also accept the financial risk, that is your part of the deal.

If this is not acceptable to you DON'T DO IT... The worst case scenario in all pre-order situations is.. you loose your money and get nothing. The best case is you get what you paid for.

Hounding someone who gambled with your money.. when you were a willing participant in the enterprise it tantamount to harrassment.. you Gambled you lost, move on.

Granted... in this case there may be evidence of Shenanigans... your remedy is legal.. clearly all the hue and cry is proving fruitless.. go to court.

I don't think Mark defined that as his terms of services though... Maybe I'm wrong.

Any reasonable person with even the basics of understanding regarding the import of Restricted items would know this.

If they did not.. they simply would have ordered direct themselves.. and found out the hard way.

I don't think that's quite fair. I know what you're saying, but unless it's explicitly detailed in a formal agreement between the buyer and the seller that they may not actually get what they want, then they should be entitled to some sort of compensation.

If it's such a crapshoot, why didn't these people simply make the order themselves instead of through A&A? Because through a retailer that has the right permits, it's supposed to be a sure fire thing, however delays are to be expected. Somehow, it seems that these people were led to believe that going through A&A was a sure deal because he is supposed to be legally allowed to import. At least, that's what I understand from all this, and I have to say, I personally thought Mark could bring stuff in the country without problems, save for inspection delays. If it was not guaranteed that the goods paid for would be delivered, that should have been made very clear.

Here should be the deal! IF ITS SUCH A GAMBLE then why doesn't Mark give back the PROFIT from the guns? If you send him $700 for an AEG, mark buys that AEG from the USA for $200, but it gets confiscated, shouldn't mark give the $500 profit back?

Again, this pretty much sums up what I was gonna say...

I guess that would go a long way to making redress... but I expect there are legal costs .. and from all accounts the items are still in Limbo... so the deal may yet be fulfilled... until final resolution is realized.. the money is tied up.

How happy would people be to learn after a partial refund that .. now the stuff is released... what a financial mess that would be.

I only meant a refund if the item was actually seized and not just in limbo :D

I can't dissagree... but clearly that is not the position being taken... again.. I think the remedy is Legal.

If your positions are in opposition.. and there is no meeting of the minds.. the recourse is to take it to court.

I suppose so, but it just sucks to see the courts tied up further for something so easily remedied.

If it was easily remedied.. it would heve been

You mentioned that when you put down money on something that is restricted... that you accept the chance of it being siezed and should accept the loss if it happens.

I agree.. this is the way it should be, if youre asking someone to do a favor for you, or doing it yourself.

But this is a business. You dont purchase items from a business with the Chance of getting it. If I ordered a rifle from SIR that wasnt in stock, Im not paying money for the CHANCE of getting it! Thats the point of buying through a business; to ensure you get what you pay for.

If you are a business who deals on the principal of chance, that someone can buy something and they MIGHT get it, I would say that business requires a manitoba lottery license, as this is a form of gambling and illegal to do so without.

By that, I mean the solution to the problem is easily accomplished. Either a refund or a simple communication to the parties involved would have at least delayed any legal proceedings until the mentioned Sept. 08 release date of the shipment.

Anyways, It's obvious that lack of communication on the retailer's part is to blame at this point. The ball is in Mark's court. He's got to answer the people he owes goods or money to, one way or another.

Fact is he has the permits, but even those permits don't allow 100% of airsoft through the border, CBSA can withhold anything they want regardless of permits, money, or common sense.

Forgive my ignorance, but if these were pre-ordered items that are now sitting in customs awaiting disposition why should there be a refund? I can understand demanding a refund if the order did not happen, but that does not appear to be the case here.

If you were the importer would you refund a pre-order that is awaiting customs inspection? If you did what are you going to do with the items that you are now on the hook for?

We are talking about refunding the MARKUP PROFIT, not the initial cost of buying the guns. One some guns there is a $500 markup cost OR MORE! If Mark refunded that he would be out nothing.

drache you have no clue how much markup there was if you did you would know there is not $500 profit on a $200 gun. why are you so interested in this if you have nothing to do with it? read some other threads about importing and the costs of doing it. the profit is slim to nil.

Mark Anderson is a reasonable guy... A busy guy, be he is reasonable. I'd recommend sending him an Email... Seems he's taken notice that people are sick of waiting and want their money. I'd recommend sending him a polite email, backing it up with record of payment (EMT or whatever)...

I'm currently waiting for my refund by EMT to land in my email box :)

I have pre-ordered guns from Mark and the markup (no pun intended) was 300%! Besides what I said was a "figure of speech"....

that does not mean he PROFITED 300%! like you think.

Do some math and figure out how much it costs to expedite a triwall full of airsoft. I'll give you a hint: NOT CHEAP
However some airsoft guns are marked up a LOT more than others, but I'm not going to say which ones because they'll be extremely pissed off to find out :)

I remember he had the JLS Fn2000 marked up over 700%....

I lost out on this order as well.

From now on unless its in country I ain't buying.

From what some others lost tho seem like i got off easy :P

+1 at the verry least he coulda done that...

Well a KJW 1911 is ~$90, Redwolf probably charged maybe $30-40 for shipping...I paid $330....so quite a bit...

again though I don't think there are much point of pursuing since legally the product purchased is on shaky ground, the risk is always there for importing items....costly lesson to learn, but thats just how it is...

I can walk into Chilcotin Guns right now and ask for a restricted firearm imported in from the States and I dont have to pay a dime until it arrives. Of course I've done lots of business with them but even then, it was MAYBE a 25% deposit required.

If you are a business then ACT like a business!

Straw man

I thought people might like to know, Mark Anderson posted yesterday on the Manitoba Airsoft Association site that he now has KSC and KWA pistols for sale, and Classic Army AEGs.

Gryp, can you "repost" that here for everyone to see.

Sorry but I don't think it's really proper for me to do that?

Dude, your talking about buying a real gun... that is WAY different than airsoft... WAY different.

and a 300% markup? sounds almost right... but its not ALL profit...
There are many hidden costs beside the gun cost.
-Currency exchange
-Shipping cost
-Duties & taxes
-Brokerage fees
-A little to pay off their permits/license
-Misc. costs

All those are added in before the importer can add on a small markup to have a profit.

Yeah, he's not going to let the airsoft cash cow get away from him after he's been accustomed to milking it. Airsoft if a fucking goldmine in Canada, because you can charge whatever the fuck you want for it, and people will buy it because there's no other alternative. And seeing how his gun prices increased about 10% per month for his last 4 months in operation, he was making large. He may be closed to the public, but I don't see him giving up his gold mine. I didn't believe it when he first announced it, and this goes to prove it.

I don't give a shit what any of the A&A supporters have to say. Mark imports the guns himself, therefor he pays no markup to an importer like all the other retailers. Look at what the guns cost on Redwolf and the other sites. With the volume he was buying, people are idiots if they think he was paying retail price for them. He was getting wholesale prices, although probably not as low to other internation dealers due to the limited amount he could get into Canada at once. And I also call bullshit on the "high shipping costs". Funny, because airsoft guns in the US cost the same as in Asia. It doesn't cost any more to ship a crate of guns to the US than it does to Canada.

The fact is, none of you know any more about his behind the scenes dealings than the rest of us. You just use the "he's a nice guy", "he's busy" and "he's on vacation" (with the markups he has, no wonder he can afford to spend 4 months of the year on vacation) to defend his actions, no matter how underhanded they may be, when the rest of us (including those who got screwed firsthand) use common sense instead. So Anderson supporters can continue sticking their heads in the sand while he's busy screwing you all in the ass.

The bottom line is that regardless of whether or not he lost money with guns seized in customs, he is a legal business and has a responsibility to his customers. His customs problems are not his customers' problems. They deal with him, he deals with customs. He took their money up front for a product, and because he's losing money, he decides that he just keeps his customers' money. That's wrong on so many levels and I just can't understand how people are vocally defending that.

Now, I should add that I personally never had a problem with A&A. I bought several items from Mark and the transactions always went smoothly. However, regardless of my personal experience, I still find his business practices with his other customers descpicable.

See for yourself::http://mb-airsoft.com/forum/index.php

Which only works if you have approved access to that forum section. Mine was removed when he did the "sale to only MAA members" thing last January.

You'll only have access to that area if you're verified by a local in person.

Regardless I would tend to belive what Gryphon has posted. That stays in line with what was stated by Mark when he closed the public Airsoft store.

I was. I've been to Mark's place in person, as well as at Keystone in '06. Most MAA guys have met me in person, but I'm not an MAA member or a local player. I think that was Mark's idea at the time.

not sure what you guys are talking about but this GRYPHON guy is an asshole and doesn't have a clue what he is talking about I talked to Mark today and this Andrew guy has his ass stuck up somebodies eles ass as he doesn' now anything anout anything and I'm not sure but I think he is only 14