FPS Question
 

I am looking for some input from players on FPS limits for CQB.

I would like to know what you think the FPS should be for CQB. What limit are you willing to play at? how high? and should full face masks be optional?

Thank you

well from what i generally hear, fps is limited to 350 with .2 and full face mask is not required, but some form of eye protection is.

My personal preference is Cover up what you don't want hurt. Keep fps under 400 (on .2's) out of respect for other players. That's just me though. I tend to not feel 350 under all my gear. Mandatory eye protection is a must though.

Players are adults and should have enough of an understanding and acceptance of the risks involved to prevent their own injury.

On the topic of faces mask, as long as the person who is not using one understands what circumstances may arise from not wearing one, then its fine. Kinda like not wearing your seat belt. A person should wear one when driving, but if they dont and they get in an accident its their own damn fault.
Id still stress wearing one though.

For me I feel under 350 is fine, a limit is what it is, a limit. Its not a number that people have to have their guns at. Ive been short close and far with 350 during CQB and its not terrible. But my opinion on FPS is relative to whomever is firing. A person with good trigger control, I dont mind a little more higher FPS, a person with bad trigger control lower fps and hope to god they only use low caps. A person who BB hoses, well it would be prefered they throw their bbs by hand only.

Its your call Camo, opinions will vary from side to side. Some believe high is fine some will opt for low.

Well said, T7. I think the point many people are missing is that if it were decided that 350 is the maximum limit, it's just that, the max, not a guideline or an average. I've taken a 3 second burst to bare hands from 10 ft. away one of my first games... cqb limit here is 350 and the rentals are stock CA's, so fps on that shot was most likely around 330. All that did was make me laugh at how much I made that person jump when I came around the corner... and taught me I need gloves ;)

Also, i'm sure some leeway could be given depending on player experience and demeanor.

I'm not sure what to think. Over 85 people have viewed this topic and 4 have replied. It's a subject that everyone that plays CQB has to deal with.

Either most feel this is a stupid question, or I've asked it wrong. Can someone tell me what I did wrong here?

you should wear a mask...

I don't know about you but I dont want holes on your face...

350 max and eye wear is a must!

JOC and Calcity in Calgary, as you already know, limit CQBR FPS to 320, AND semi-auto only.

The question I most want answered is what fps speed you think is to high for CQB?

These are not questions that I personally need answered. I know what I would want, but I own a CQB facility and I want to find a speed that everyone can live with.

I have a big facility that players from three provinces play at and they have different thoughts on where that speed should be set. I'm getting thoughts from across the country to see what the general acceptable speed is.

350 or lower for sure

Personally, I think around 300fps is good for ICQB, and up to 350fps for general CQB. You'd probably want mouth protection for all ICQB games, but it your CQB game is outdoors, just keep your mouth shut and you probably don't NEED it.

Stock Marui AEGs are perfect for ICQB, since they max out at around 295fps. You don't need your BB to travel 400fps when your target is only fifteen feet away.

Depends on the players
 

It really depends on the players, we have an outdoor field with multiple buildings so kind of a mix of CQB and regular play. Our limit is 400 FPS with .20 and no minimum engagement range.

We require full masks for under 19, adults can make their own decision.

Beyond that we stress centre of mass shots, in 6 years we have had a few bleeders but no serious injury.

You need to look at your environment and see what the potential for someone getting hit in the face at close range is. If there is a good chance, require proper googles and some form of mouth guard. Rent full masks at worst.

But ultimately you have have to decide not the players, after all they all think it is cool to be at 400 FPS until they get hurt.

If I was running a pure CQB location, with little or no vegetation I would go around 350 to 370, that covers most reasonably upgraded guns. Those who went to 400 will be left out, but they can always rent.

I guess I should have mentioned this is inside a retired Hospital. The distances are from "in your face" to the longest hallways being over 160 feet long. Yes they are that long.

Full face mask.
320 fps tops.
some even use semi only.

I'v really damaged peoples faces with 350 from 3 meters away...

+1 to everything said. i've played CQB in Asia at 550 FPS and it's NOT pleasant being hit in unprotected area's.

Mandatory Eye protection,
I suggest 350-400 with .2 BB's


PS. Do you have a waiver form in place for your facility?

Yes I do, and thank you for your thoughts on this topic. I operate this facility for Airsoft, and another for Reball, and still another for Paintball.

We've been using 350fps in our indoor arena in Winnipeg for the past 2 or 3 years without a single serious injury. And this isnt seasoned airsofters playing, this is walk ins off the street ages 16 and up. Go there on a Friday or Saturday night and you could see a good half dozen girls per game too.

I dont know what would possess anyone to NOT wear a facemask in a CQB game, regardless of FPS. Thats just plain irresponsible, but that shouldnt be used as an arguement to set the max FPS to a point where not even a stock CA gun is legal.

IMO:CQB games should have all people using full face masks because at that close of a rang and with new people no matter what FPS limit is people are going to get injured and that looks bad for your business and for the new people playing most likely wont com back

You have neither asked a stupid question, nor have you asked it wrong....Your third option is that the answer has been given and each of the 85 plus people all agree on the 350 fps with 0.20 weight BBs and see it as redundant to keep posting on the subject.

350 is our accepted CQB limit, but 320 fps and full face mask would be very acceptable restrictions for people who are completely new to the sport (just introduced to airsoft, lacking trigger control, or being just a little to gungho).

Better to be safe and fun, than sorry and face any type of bad blood issues.

SHA DO

We ran a series of CQB games this winter here in Kitchener. Under 350fps, mercy optional, full mask optional, auto allowed. No injuries other than welts.

As to why not mandatory full mask? Same reason why it's not mandatory at outdoor fields even though the guns are even hotter: you can't bring most guns up to your face with a full mask on. I got enough hits to the face that I eventually made a cut-down mask just to protect the nose and mouth, but I still wouldn't use a full mask for CQB. Teeths can be replaced, eyes can't.

I dunno about you, but I can bring my gun up to my face just fine with my mask on! (and still aim!)

350 FPS with 0.20g, Eye protection mandatory, full face mask optional.

+1

Mercy hasn't been discussed much, but if you're KEEPING a 10-15ft mercy rule, there's no reason why the FPS limit shouldn't be 400; this is what always puzzled me about certain CQB games having even GREATER mercy limits than outdoor games while maintaining a lower FPS limit.

If you can stand 400FPS at 15ft, you can ABSOLUTELY stand 350FPS at point-blank.

G'day,
 

I put in my say on MAA, but I"ll repeat here for the benefit of whoever may benefit from it: 350 FPS with .2 and full face mask optional. I agree that adults should be able to choose the mask or not, but also be adult enough to accept the damages that could result. It's airsoft, a little pain is included in the admission price. Since I can't control the actions of the other players, my actions include properly protecting my face.

350 FPS, Full auto, It's your face; Don't get mad when I accidentally shoot your teeth out if you're not wearing a full face mask.

Because shit happens like a new player accidentally spraying someone that startled him.

What part of my post are you referring to? Mercy limits don't actually stop newbies from going full auto point-blank; it could definitely be argued that no-mercy CQB games are safer than regular outdoor games with a mercy rule.

I think he was commenting on this: "there's no reason why the FPS limit shouldn't be 400".

The question here is also depending on the facility. CamoGames has stated that there are hallways as long as 160 ft. in his facility. Even a 400 fps shot will have lost quite a bit of energy by the time it reaches a target ~100 ft away.

I would say that 400 is probably OK as a maximum, but to err on the side of caution would be better for this 'trial run' and go with 350. Remember, it's not like everybody's guns are tuned to be just under these numbers, some people have guns that shoot less than 300 and keep them that way so as to not affect an already excellent performance.

To those who would not play if we had an imposed maximum of 350 fps: Have you played at these velocities before? Even if you have and had a bad experience, please consider giving it a shot for the sake of having one massive, awesome, time of your life type of cqb game. And yes, pun very much so intended.... :p

I think 350, full auto, full face protection optional and eye wear mandatory are some sound rules.

I don't wanna come forward as a douchebag...

But if 16 year old girls that have never handled an airsoft gun before can walk in off the street and play a full game with 350 FPS and full auto at the local CQB place (Xtreme-Tactics, www.xtreme-tactics.com) I think people that have played airsoft multiple times in their life could handle it...

Why would anyone need over 350fps in a CQB environment? A BB's time-on-target is like 1.5 second at the most, from one end to the other, in all but the largest of CQB fields.

My opinion is 350 FPS max full auto. Experienced it myself and it hurt a little sometimes, airsoft usually does a little, but it was fine. Most guns aren't running up to the max or 349 anyways. If the max is 350 most people would be running 300 or 330.

Here's an idea...why not set the upper limit based on how much FPS you actually NEED rather than based on the 'average pain tolerance' of those posting? Why cause more pain if it's unnessary?

Possibly have a couple tester games. Talk to some of the players using different FPSs (ranging 300-350, etc). After they've played sufficiently, ask them if they can recall any instance where they felt they NEEDED a little extra FPS/Range to make the shot. I think base it off of that as the CQB facilities will range as will opinions here.

I've only played a handfull of indoor CQB games but I used a stock TM (~270 fps) and and I didn't have much trouble shooting the entire length of the course (accuratly) - which was just over 100ft.

Having guns shooting hotter than they need to be is pointless besides causing more pain and potential for hard feelings, IMO. I would also feel a lot better playing at a facility where I know the FPS limit is based off what the average player NEEDS rather than getting lit up by some body who doesn't care how much pain they inflict on someone else and push their guns to the limit simply because they can.

I think most people prefer to not wear full face masks for comfort and finding something they can aim properly with at the same. I know I'll probably never wear one unless I feel the FPS is higher than it needs to be - I'll sacrifice a little bit of (necessary!) pain for comfort.

My comment is going to repeat a bunch of what I have read above with a little twist.

I agree whole heartedly that it is the player first and FPS second which dictate the safety of an engagement. However, in the end FPS trumps all as someone will find it very difficult to be dangerous with a 30 fps rifle. Given the type of players prevalent in Canadian airsoft these days I would go after what you CAN control which is velocity limits.

With CQB games I see no need at all to go over 300 fps or use full auto. The accuracy difference is nearly negligible over short distances and I've seen teeth lost on guns shooting under 300 at distances of 30 ft. The only reason I see to accept 320 fps is that there are now many more 'stock' guns which shoot over 300 and I do not believe that the 20 fps is worth having new players downgrade their weapons.

Upgraded guns frankly do nothing but make a player more dangerous until proven otherwise. Of the 100 - 200 players I've met who CLAIM to be mature, safe and awesome ninjas MAYBE 30 of them should have the privilege to carry upgraded gear.

I would vote 320 fps limit, single only, face protection optional.
Oh - and mercies, but that's just because I'm one of those 'pussies' mercies are designed for.

Just as important as above:
Whatever limit you choose, CHRONO all guns!!

+1000000000

Pain tolerance should not be the limiter. Actual need should be.

Shoot from one engagement point to the next. Is it workable at 280fps? Then that's the limit? 300? Whatever. 400fps is just ridiculous.

We can also discuss trigger control until we're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is that unless you are going to completely hand pick who gets to play in your facility, you have to bank on the lowest common denominator.....the people who probably don't have trigger control and who WILL hose you down with full auto to the face at 5 feet.

Should be no need to upgrade a gun for CQB.

That's the thing, You will not get "Lit up" by anyone... I'd be happy to vouche for every single Manitoba, and the select few Sask players that I've played with.

Have you seen the hospital before? I doubt a 300 FPS gun would be able to make the shot down some of the hallways...

By full face mask, we're not talking about paintball masks, the slim style Mesh masks work just fine... Hell, most people I know use something like a Balaclava, or a shemagh.

I'm not sure if you've played in the school or not, but when we had the CQB game there this winter we played there using the 350 / full auto rule. The School is MUCH more close quarters than the hospital... We didn't have any complaints about the FPS or anyone overshooting anyone...

What i'm saying is that when shit happens (aka someone freaks out and lights someone up at close range) i prefer the AEG to be at 350fps than 400fps. Hence why we put limits on the fps of our AEG, for safety.

Anyone not happy can go play in the USA (and over sea). Some places do CQB at 450fps, no mercy/freeze. Enjoy.

This has nothing to do with inflicting more pain on people. It has to do with the costs involved in toning down a gun to fire at these lowwer rates, in comparison to the costs of mask. 90% of the Manitoba players have guns tuned to the 330-350fps range because thats what our indoor arena has been using for the past 3 years (injury-free as previously stated). To get our guns down to 320fps, we would need to
- buy a new spring (20$)
- have our techs install it (25$ labour)
- have our techs reinstall the old spring upon returning (another 25$)
Versus
- buy a 15$ facemask (which should be mandatory for a business owned field IMO)

So for a player who doesnt know how to swap springs themselves, thats 70$ above and beyond the other costs for attending the game.

On one side, players dont want to spend up to 70$ just to be able to play in one game to play at the lowwer FPS restrictions.
On the other side, players dont want to have to wear a facemask for whatever reasons. A cheap low profile face masl (such as the Sensei) is only 15$!!

70$ vs 15$...

Now if the complaint is that the BBs will hurt too much, well, youre playing a sport that involves shooting at each other. If youre afraid of getting a bit hurt, then find a new sport! Like its been said before.. 16 year old girls play in a much tighter arena than the Melville School even @ 350fps. ;)

Just to add to the debate, when we played in Melville at 350 FPS max full auto, it was also FREEZING COLD (-10 to -15 inside), which has GOT to hurt more. But it was still fine.

Amos, Zekk: Notice I did not state what I thought the limits should be. I was mearly stating that (IMO) a better approach to deciding a FPS is on what is required, then possibly take into account things such as what stock guns are shooting at. Now notice a lot of the new players are getting JG and guns shooting 360-420 right out of the box - most will agree that this is too hot for CQB and will need to be downgraded.

Most of the bitching and complaining I've seen at games comes from either cheating or guys getting shot up bad at close range. I don't know about you guys but I play this game for fun. I'm not saying I'm a pussy but when other guys start complaining it usually ruins the game for EVERYONE!

Now my personal opinion on CQB FPS -> 320 max with no min. engagement distances.

EDIT: Games are more fun when you're playing with people you do all the time and get a long great with. It's a lot tougher to laugh off getting lit up by someone you don't know at all. It's easy to forgive a good buddy as you know it was clearly an accident.

G'day,
 

There is another factor to consider when thinking about FPS limits: Percieved hits. I've used AEGs shooting as low as 160 FPS (Broken nozzle MP5k) and watched the BBs bounce off the target's vest without them noticing, only to have them turn around and "light me up". Some would call that cheating, I chalked it up to wussy hits not being noticeable. I for one would be hard pressed to notice a 300 FPS (closer to 200 by the time it gets to me) hit on my vest or legs. This leads to accusations of cheating, arguments and bad feelings all around. I'd rather get a bruise and KNOW I've been hit than have someone get in my face cos I didn't call hits I didn't feel.

Agreed, airsoft is for fun and safety shouldn't be determined by pain tolerance, as that varies from person to person. However, we have many people from multiple provinces speaking from experience saying that 350 is safe. Can you give us the 30 fps leeway so that many people won't need to tune down their guns? 30 fps shouldn't be noticeable, unless you're a chrony :p

The goal here should be to reach a common ground so as to all play together :)

If we play together, we should get to know each other and then we can start changing the rules one way or the other if necessary. In the end it will be Al's call though. This is not an issue for me personally, but I would hate to see anyone decide not to attend due to fps rules. 350 is safe. IMO, the more people, the more fun! Specially in a building this size!

From what I understand, the engagement distances at the hospital are quite large...

At 50 feet, a 300 FPS gun feels more like 200... I've been shot with 200 FPS springers and such... It's hard to feel it through even my bare weesatch..

Awww. Can't we just all get along? *hugs*

Cheesy maybe, but it gets the point accross, eh? :p

Alberta - 320 or lower everywhere (that I know of)
Sask - 300 I think I heard (someone correct me?)

If it were up to me, I'd say buy a spring and I'll tune your guns down for you otherwise go to hell ;)

In the end the decision is up to Al and we have to respect his decision. I know I'll be there playing at his hospital in July reguardless if it's 350 (I just might have to figure out working face protection!)

EDIT: I agree, I can't wait to play with the sask and MB players this summer. I'm hoping to make it back home to Regina more this summer to visit family and check out the AS scene there while I'm at it. Hopefully then I don't go ape shit when you guys light me up at the hospital at 350 :P

Please keep in mind, that just because our FPS limit for CQB in Manitoba is 350, that doesn't mean all our guns fire at exactly 349 fps. Just like our 400fps limit for the fields, its a limit, not a goal. My own UMP only shoots like 310:p
Anyway I'd like to make a big point here as a gunsmith; 330fps is your best option, as all alberta and sask players are under 330, as well as most Mb players, and most importantly it's the stock fps of a CA gun.
Sure changing a spring isn't so hard, but once you open up that gearbox there's any number of unseen things that can go wrong. Not to mention it's 25$ for labor assuming nothing goes wrong and 15$ for a weaker spring that we're never going to use again. It's unfair to have to spend 40$ on a brand new CA gun just to downgrade it for one game.
So it's not 350, and I'm sure the Sask guys don't mind having Alberta guys with a 320fps limit, so what's an extra 10fps matter to save 40$ on an already expensive trip?

Now if you can't decide on an fps limit based on our discussion, why not leave it up to vote having 300, 320, 330 and 350 as the choices?

This was my point exactly. I had to switch out springs in both my guns to get them shooting under 330. Just as an example, I have a spring that shoots 330 in my AUG, but that's too high. So I had to take the stock spring out of my P90, put that spring in, and now it shoots 300, and then I'll have to put the stock P90 spring in my AUG so that it shoots lower than 330. I can do it, but it's just annoying for 10 FPS.

Im not sure how to really word it, so I will take my best shot at it and hopefully this makes sense to everyone.

When we played at Melville I noticed that there was an insane amount of ricocheting from bursts fired. Im sure a lower FPS would reduce the amount of ricocheting, but well how low? Probly so low that most people wouldnt feel the hit. I just wanted to make a point that when 4 or 5 people fire a burst down a hall way and the bbs are ricocheting everywhere and sometimes I found it very confusing as if what I felt was a hit or a ricochet.

I'll stick to my original comments, under 350, manditory goggles, no glasses, and very very recommended that face mask is used.

nothing over 350 on .20s
If i am forced to wear anything other then my ESS Ices I won't attend.
it's my face and I step on to the field knowing if my face gets shot it will hurt, I don't need someone enforcing mask rules for my face.

Where i am, its 350 with .2, and face masks are required.

laff, ricocheting is a very effective strategy to use when assaulting:)

350 limit, facemasks, full auto. Btw my gun shoots at 300 and I tell ppl not to mercy me at 350 or 400 Fps games. I tell them to shoots because its the game cAlled airsoft that I play

Effective I suppose. There has to be a limit though, or else one could simply blind fire bb hose like a jackass down a hall way and all his ricochetts would count? Hardly sounds sportsman like.

My gun shoots 320 with a stock spring, I mercy people out of respect because not everyone appreciates being shot point blank, its part of a game I play called airsoft.

VOTE / POLL
 

Can anybody get a voting poll started on this topic? Let's see where the numbers really are according to ASC members in Canada...people here have too much to say!

Oh, it's completely sporting, the ricochets don't count as hits obviously. It's a psych out to make you think about it, as I'm running up the hallway to mercy you ;)

I don't mercy out of respect. I do it because it saves on ammo.. jk :p

+1

Al, i recommend to simply create another post with the different types of FPS you prefer. Ultimately, it all comes down to your decision. The sooner it is decided the better.

As Shakespeare's once wrote, "If it best be done with, it best be done with quickly."

I agree with KEVORKIAN, and Spa about the poll. I guess I should have done that in the first place. I still think even if I did the poll first there would have been the same discussion to follow.

Another point on the FPS thing:

... Pistols shoot 300-330 on propane...

The point where a stock pistol (excluding a few strange 500 FPS+ ones) is too hot for CQB is the point where something is really not right.

I think 350 is a reasonable FPS for CQC. Though full face masks should be a requirement, not an option.

We're in agreement... Personally, the best experience I've had with CQB has been at TTAC3; 350FPS, semi-only, and no mercy rules. I don't play airsoft looking for bleeders.

Here is the rules I use at TTAC3
 

In operation over 2.5 years..

no issues

FPS = max 350 with .2
no automatic fire
no minimum engagement distance, it is impossible to do CQB with Mercy (ok its possible, just stupid )

Full face protection is not required ... but most people see the merit of it after their first 2 or 3 facial bleeders.

Going with lower FPS will in fact make many pistols running propane over limit.

Going Higher.. there is no reason to. guys wearing a lot of gear on the torso just end up shot in the legs.. once you figure out where the "armour" is you can deal with it.

We follow a fire for effect rule.. you continue to shoot until the target indicates hit. no one is allowed or tolerated in calling another player out other than game control staff.

350 is perfect...if you think its too much play Xbox....

mask manditory? not anywhere id ever play....im 30 years old i dont think anyone is gonna tell me what to wear...


NEWS FLASH### some sports are dangerous......weird eh..... there is a chance of being hurt...just like, hockey, football, soccor, skydiving, scuba diving, cliff jumping, or any other contact sport on the planet!!!

we does everyone have to be such pussies?

We are not all uber rough and tough as Gene Pool.....well I am but that's a given. ;)

AMEN!, but the only fields around me require face masks, so we mostly play in backyards

A full face mask should not be a requirement, but it should be suggested.

They're your teeth; just don't get mad if I accidentally shoot them out.