systema mp5
 

http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/news2/2217
it's coming guys, i'm pretty excited about this baby. 980$ price tag is VERY nice.

So, it will still be $2000 here. No word on selectable quick-change cylinders, but from the external pics, doesn't look likely. To me, it looks like it will be a hybrid between a standard AEG and the current PTW format. Electronic control + Ver 2 gearbox.

I'll reserve final judgement until the first 300 have been dispersed and someone does a tear-down review so we see what on the inside. The outside finish means nothing.

Most likely it will be the same internal design as the M4/M16 but the cylinder change out does look like it wont be an option on this model unless you tear the unit down.. unless you can remove the rear stock and pop the body a bit and swap em?

I don't know why you guys think that a quick cylinder change is impossible or even unlikely. On the real one, the stock comes off with a single pin and the lower hinges down allowing access to the trigger group. Voila, perfect cylinder access.

+1, couldn't say it better myself. Bonus if they manage to shoehorn the same cylinder as the M4 into the MP5 so the user doesn't have to buy more cylinders.

I'll most likely cave and get one after I get back from overseas and am flush w/ blood money...

That angers me. I'd love to see a very specific, no-bullshit, breakdown of exactly why the costs double when the guns hit Canadian soil. I know it has something to do with the obscene amount of money retailers have to pay to become licenced to import props, but aside from that I don't see anything other than ridiculous markup.

No offence to our retailers, as they are bloody godsends to the sport in Canada and we definitely need more of them, but I'd like to be paying closer to US prices for this equipment.

Hell, I can buy REAL STEAL for cheaper. I have a Norinco M14 on its way that I paid $400 for, and an 840 that I paid $300 for!

1: Licenses cost money, lots of money
2: Businesses need to MAKE money
3: Import fees, its hard to import stuff when you have more flags on your profile than the united nations
4: More work load = requirement for LESS business = higher prices

There ya go! :)

Many thanks.

Like those haven't been paid for? how long have they been open? plenty of time to pay those.

I hate to see airsoft guns costing more then their real steal counter parts.

I want one. But why does it have to have that awful full stock. Mp5s are best with sliding stock.

Because of the battery?...

There is so much different in the MP5 from an AR platform. Think of hoe the motor mounts in the AR, to the lower directly, not the gearbox or the grip. In the MP5, it will have to mount to the gearbox or the grip. This will be a fundemental change in gearbox design and durability, just like between a Ver 2 and 3 in a Marui.

Kumi Yoshida has released info that the MP5 is the best PTW yet, according to her, but that remains to be seen. They would be smart to use existing components for all the internals, but I don't see that being possible. The MP5 cosmetically and structurally are too different, both in the real and airsoft, to have all of their components interchangable. Consider even the electronics, to have both full and burst, you can't do it with the design of a PTW currently without the addition of a switch at the very least. So, have they added another selector switch to make 3 instead of 2 used in the AR platform? This would require either different switches or a different gerabox to accomodate a 3rd switch.

You see how quickly this changes the mechanics of the gun?

And to remove the stock on a real MP5, you need a flat blade screwdriver or similar tool. Do this in the bush, in low-light, without a retained pin, good luck. You don't need any tools with the AR series and their pin is retained. Takedown will need to be done in a safe zone or similar area to be effective.

Like I said, I'll reserve final judgement until it shows up, but we won't see them in Canada until late spring early summer at the earliest, and more info will flow out about them before then.

Battery. Beany A series forend doesn't hold much of a battery.

BUILD A LIPO INTO THE SKIN, jesus do i have to think of everything ?? ;)

And then you will lose an arm if you ever are shot on the said arm... reminds me of CoD4... when you unlock the option to drop a nade when you are dead.

I wonder about the mags capacity and price.

no reason tho think they would be different than the M4 PTW.. ?

there is a lot of speculaton about this item... I suspect there will be a lot more info after Shot Show..

rest assured Carl will be all over this puppy when he is down there.

Wow, you're not only a PTW extremist. You're an Armalite PTW extremist.

It's quite possible for SystemA to register the motor directly to the gearbox. All they've got to do is use a similar quarter twist bayonet style engagement as they did with the Armalite before the plastic lower grip is slide over the motor. This would be an improvement over the Armalite build as you would only have to achieve accurate engagement between two major assemblies (motor-gearbox) whereas the Armalite requires accurage engagement between three bodies (gearbox-rec'r-motor).

Putting in a third switch to detect the 4th f/a position is pretty easy with a similar rack and pinion slider similarly to the Armalite series. The could put a gap in the middle of the engagement surface of the slider so the middle switch is closed in the 3rd position (3rnd) but not in the 2nd (semi) or 4th (full auto) positions. If they double the pinion diameter on the selector switch (double the diameter from the armalite series) they can achieve a long enough throw distance on the rack slider to actuate four distinct switch combos. The wiring to the control board would only be slightly more complicated by adding one temporary connection to the middle switch to the already available pinouts that we use to hack 3rnd burst switches.

One touch takedown isn't really all that necessary a feature in airsoft or even training. The real deal requires some tools to take down. It's more realistic to require tools to dissamble it's replica. Besides, it would be better to train armorors with the real deal instead of it's electrical simulator.

SystemA has been pretty good at making mechanically strong AEGs. I can only hope they learned some lessons with their Armalites and ditched their ridiculous hop up and magazine assembly. The Armalite HU sucks and the way the retention fingers work with the HU to release bbs is overcomplicated. TM developed a very elegant mag-HU assembly. It's tolerant to the economical manufacturing tolerances TM manufactures with and it outperforms SystemA's work in this area. I'd say that it's the only area where SystemA lags behind TM in outright performance.

Oh man. I have to get Hojo to vouch for me so I can get a press pass for ShotShow. Maybe as a reporter to interview Kumi and review the new MP5. I'm already going as an industry particapant, but with a press pass, I'd be allowed to take photos of SystemA's stuff.

You just want to touch it before us :(

Mmmmm. I'm looking forward to this... Muahahaha.

Hopefully it wont out do the M4s too much.

I'm sure it's a nice feeling piece of work, but at ShotShow there's practically everything in small arms from a wicked small Detonics 0.45 to HKs awesome GMG. I loved fiddling with the GMG. Everyone ogles the HK 417, but I was busy stripping the GMG. Then there are the pay as you go Vegas firing ranges.

why not? that'd be fantastic. i hope for systema's sake they do.

I wasn't being serious.. :p

*Moans* you know the right words to my heart LOL!

On a side note i'm contacting Mr. SystemA tomorrow to see if those MP5's are landing in Canada through ZShot or anyone... i'm prepared to be disappointed but heh...

My point is, it will not be able to be 100% compatable on internals. And with Systemas recent QC hiccups on "new technologies" (490 motors for example), I see no reason to be even the slightest bit enthusiastic until they release info and pictures of the interior. And who says their new way of motor mounting will be better? You're assuming they'll have a new gearbox shell, which they may, but they may manufacture an adapter to do the job, or it could be a Magnum motor instead of a PTW motor. Hell, it could even be a Ver 2 gearbox for all we know. The new EL-001 board are different in 2008, the "hack" you do now for 3-burst is no longer possible in the same manner, and control is different.

This gun has been 4 years "in development" or "coming soon". This is not a new and to be excited about thing here. I knew of it's existance and development long before most of ASC did, so I've had a long time for the excitement to wear off.

THis is the best available info so far:

SYSTEMA Major Dealers,

PTW MP5: I am surprised at so many inquiries. Although it is a new product, I never got so many inquires until now. I never imagined that we got reservations when not only specification but also price is not yet decided.We will inform about reservation start as early in 2008 as possible.

Very many inquiries do not decrease at all but just increase, so I report current state:

(1) Production is very favorable. The trial production is completed about 80 percent now.

(2) It already worked. It realized the shooting feeling which we have never felt. It is the best PTW that reached to the extreme performance.

(3) It is very heavy. It is about 4kg! It is so heavy and you need power to holding.

The difference of the light movement by the ultimate performance of outside rigidity and inside mechanism is remarkable.
Everyone cannot help being surprised, laughing and shooting.

(4)Although we are trying hard not to become more expensive than this, the scheduled price is $ 980, Y98000. It may become a bit more expensive.

We are trying as hard as possible so that we can provide at this fixed price. (Although it is the best performance and quality, we set the fixed price as low as possible so that you all could shoot this wonderful new product this time. If you try this, you can certainly be satisfied. It is the product which makes you feel relatively cheap.)

(5) We will announce it at SHOTSHOW early in February. (Las Vegas, US).
We plan to start selling on March 1st.

(6) We plan to start selling MP5 challenge kit on the same day. (Scheduled price $880, Y88000)

(7) I am very sorry but the number of first time lots is only 300. I am sorry!
Although I expect they will be sold out by reservation, as for the first lot, we will allocate them not in order of reservation but with the number of your order.

(7) We will keep trying hard wholeheartedly so that we can provide more next month. Thank you for your kind understanding

(8) When the number which can be shipped is less than the number of orders, we will ship immediately after we produce it. .

(9) Although I have already got many reservation orders because some definitely wanted to reserve, since the first time lot will be allocation, I have accepted it. Thank you very much for a lot of inquiries and orders.

Thank you very much. Thank you for your consideration. The attached pictures are of the trial production which I brought to my home.

Kumi Yoshida

I highly doubt it has a v2 gearbox , it will either be completly new gearbox or use the same as the m4, I would guess same as the armalite.

It can't use the same gearbox as the AR, unless the use an adapter for mounting the motor, but that's just dumb.

Sheesh, read my posts above.

if they use a V2 mech box i'll be more the disappointed after all the wait they drop a V2 MB in to it.

Well, let's think about it for a second. Current AR PTW pricing sits at about $1500 U.S. retail, and the prices have been expected to increase on them very shortly. Now, they announce the MP5 with retail at $980 U.S. for their newest platform. It would be 60% of pricing expected for the AR.

Did they just drop the price out of the kindness of their heart, or is it more realistic to think that it's not the same system at all? I mean, they're Japanese in the business of making money. Did their parts cost suddenly tank, and if so, why are the ARs not selling for $1000 retail, but instead expected to increase?

But this is all speculation until they hit the consumer, are used, evaluated, torn down, etc..

I am a SystemA retailer. I don't bring in restricted stuff, but I get all the updates about their PTW releases and I've been following their PTW related work for some time now. I first got to see their stuff in person at ShotShow a couple years ago and I got to talk about their development plans then.

There's lots of places where SystemA can cut costs between their MP5 and Armalite line.

First off the gun is a lot shorter and the real steel build has a lot more plastic on it. A shorter overall build means a lot less machining. Cut an outer barrel in half and you cut the machining costs in half because you pay for half the material removal. A plastic large stock means one major part is eliminated which is an expensive multi axis lathe machined part. The base material is pretty cheap compared to the maching costs, especially if you use steel.

The MP5 frontend has to be cast because of it's complex shape. Even the real one is cast which dumps even more expensive CNC machining.

The real MP5 has a metal upper, and a plastic lower. That's another 50% less machining in simulating the real steel. Maybe HK had something in mind when they made their MP5 with plastic parts. Supposedly the real MP5 doesn't suck and the lower doesn't break. Perhaps SystemA can do the same.

Then you throw in an increase in production volume. Common parts like gears, electronics, and maybe even the motor can increase production volumes if you can share them with the Armalite and MP5 line. With the MP5 pilot only being 300pc and typical Armalite runs around a thousand, you can realize a pretty kickass reduction in per part cost if you can increase run size. All of the components in my hand grenade must be made in 5k+ run sizes to be economical. Gears and motors have a very high setup cost if you want to make good ones.

Conversely, CNC milled parts can be made in smaller lots economically. CNC maching requires much less setup than a gear hobbing run or a motor winding and assembly run. I see no reason why the MP5 would have to use the Armalite gearbox. There is not much economy of volume to be had in doubling up gearbox volume at the tradeoff of non customized fitment to the rest of the gun.

It wouldn't make sense since it would be much more accurate to register the motor directly to the gearbox. The Armalite registers the motor to the lower rec'r, which registers to the mechbox. This requires precise maching between three assemblies for consistent pinion-beval mesh. Mounting directly to the gearbox is more practical as you would be stacking the tolerances in only one engagement.

For instance for a close slip fit, one would have to machine with about 0.002" clearance between engagement surfaces to assure no binding and a close fit. This means that the motor could shift 0.002" in it's motor-rec'r seat and a further 0.002" in the rec'r-gearbox seat for a total tolerance stack of 0.004".

A direct motor-gearbox registration would cut that inconsistency in half (only one tolerance to stack). All things being equal, it is advantageous to reduce stacked tolerances where possible.

Regardless, people are still going to be charging $2500 for this thing.

Regardless people will still buy.

madmax, are you joking? mcguyver is right, he is god remember. he knows everything about everything from all his experience. whats he been playing for...3 years? ya he knows all. he is god.

I have a BB reserved just for you now, Riley.

i'll just run away

http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...ail?newsID=813

I hate to say "I told you so", but it looks like a modified Ver 2 lower with an as yet unseen cylinder, but the cylinder is not compatible with M-series PTW (cylinder head, spring guide and spring are supposedly). No planetary arrangement either, and custom motor for MP5 only (Magnum or Turbo perhaps?). Looks like only M90 for the time being, with up to M150 who knows when.

Enjoy!

Awesome. Finish looks incredible.

Based on those prices, I can almost certainly say we can expect the fully assembled unit to cost around between $2500-3000 and the challenge kit about $2000-2500.

well at least with the MP5 you can't complain that the systema costs more than the real steel.

http://img.redwolfairsoft.com/upload...5PTW-NEWS7.jpg

The planetary gear system is what sold me on the armalite's, killer trigger response that is un-matched and without the sewing machine wind-up. This is definitely a bit of a let down. Still a beautiful job and the 4 selections of safe, semi, burst, and auto is great!

Maybe I missed it but any word on the cost of magazines?

-Daes

I like that they'll have 2 separate challenge kits - one for noobs and one for experienced builders. If the noob kit happens to NOT be over $1500 (which I doubt), I would be tempted to buy one and attempt assembly myself. I really love the fact that like the original, it has a 3-round burst setting.

Woot! SystemA has given me permission to photograph their PTW, conduct an interview and test fire (test firing off site, not on ShotShow premises).

I'm excited as I should be able to get a press pass for their permission.

Their internals look really nice. I like the inclusion of both electrical units (control and FET switching) in the gearbox housing. I didn't like the strain relief issues with the wired FET assembly with the Armalite which also has very little heatsinking in the FET bank.

I'm not all that put off with the non planetary gears. It comes with a significant reduction in cost and well made step gears have lower rolling resistance than a platetary transmission. SystemA has a lot of experience with very high power assemblies (M170 springs w' torque up gears). A planetary arrangement and a step gear arrangement could have the same reduction ratio with lower rolling losses for the step gear arrangement. I don't see why the step gear setup would have any poorer reaction time. It looks like the detection hole in the sector gear could be useful for precocking the gearbox as it would like up with the optical gate just before the piston is released.

The selector switch appears to be a rotary switch or a potentiometer behind that unusual 4th gear in the mechbox. Manchovie pointed out a lack of clearance for the usual post that sticks out of an MP5 selector lever. It looks like the left and right selectors are connected to pinion gears which engage the two "4th" gears which are connected to a common shaft to synchronise the left and right selectors like a TM SIG 551. I think the common shaft is keyed and passes through a potentiometer or rotary switch. This simplifies the rack and pinion arrangement used by the Armalite. I've seen the Armalite selector go bad because the microswitch assembly is not very tolerant to slight innacuracies in manufacture or wear of the pips which are pushed down by the slider.

Too bad there are no shots of the mag tops or the hop up assembly. I'd really like to see if they fixed their designs there.

I think the Armalite cylinders will not be compatible with the MP5. I can see how SystemA could do a similar arrangement with a MP5 specific cylinder, but they'd need to cut a longer window to clear both the sector teeth and the step gear teeth (which are nearly the same height relative to the top of the gearbox). Still, I think the MP5 cylinders could be very similar to the Armalite cylinders with the exception of the length of the window cutout which means that the MP5 cyl's could be backwards compatible with the Armalite line, but not the other way. SystemA could be making their future cylinders to be compatible with both platforms.

I can change the EL-001 board without removing the gearbox in about 5 minutes. I can replace the EL-003 board in the M4 in about 5 minutes, all without removing the gearbox. This reminds me of having to spend an hour tearing an MP5 down to replace a switch. Absolute crap in my opinion, especially considering the well thought out construction of the M4.

But they don't seem to be using helical gears, so good luck with an M150.

And this geared selector arrangement is better that a simple rack gear? There are more PTWs in Alberta by far than all of Ontario, and I've never heard of a selector problem in an M4. I'll bet they haven't heard of it Europe or Asia or the U.S. either. If they have, it's not posted on PTW-users forum. Give your head a shake man!!!


This has already been confirmed.

This is MP5 is a huge disappointment. They have obviously had to rush this thing to market, made some really poor design choices, deviated grossly from their tried and true PTW format, and try to package and market it as "the best PTW ever". Anyone who even remotely believes that has not owned or even seen the AR series.

And at $2000 in Canada, this is a joke. I could build 3 MP5s with comparable parts and give up the electronic control for that money. And with a standard AEG gear set, it won't perform like a PTW does now, I promise you that.

I had really hoped they would bring an actual PTW to market. But, it seems they like the $$$ even more than I thought, and would like to target the masses with a bastardized Ver 2 mechbox and call it a "training weapon".

I share your disappointment DAES!!

And I won't buy one for the record, and I'd say you'd be a fool to drop $2K on it. NOT WORTH IT AT ALL!!!

So for the MP5 are they making a completely new type of cylinder type system?. Take from Redwolf there description leads you to believe it would be the same as the current PTW's.

"The MP5-A4 will come standard with the M90 Spring Cylinder Unit"

Not completely new. They're using the same cylinder head, spring guide and spring. All else is different, and only M90 for now.

Um...not at all. That description says that their MP5's come with M90 cylinders, not that they come with armalite PTW M90 cylinders. It even says in the article at redwolf that it will be a different cylinder with only the piston head, spring guide, and spring the same.

My second PTW is still going to be an M16A3, end of story.

You're such an odd PTW zealot man. I don't think anyone's implied the MP5 was going to be the best PTW ever. Many are expressing their enthusiasm for an interesting model which has the potential of being well engineered.

It think it's rather odd that you feel that easily changing out expensive electronic components a big plus. I do find it's nice to be able to get at the electronics so easily, but I am unnerved by the fact that over a quarter of all of the PTWs my shop has had direct contact with have had significant electrical issues. We take sufficient ESD grounding measures (grounding wrist strap and mat) yet we regularly get repair jobs which require replacement of EL-002 and EL-003 modules. It's great that they're not hard to get at, it sucks ass that they die so frequently. I hope this is not the case with the MP5. I'm a little wary as SystemA ships their EL-002 and EL-003 modules in polyethylene bags instead of static dissapating polyester bags. Bolting the EL-003 switch module to a hunk of aluminum might be a great improvement. Only two FETs on the MP5 module bolted to a solid heatsink. It's possible that one FET is wired for forward and the other for brake. That means no matching issues with regard to "on" time which could be killing Armalite EL-003 modules. If SystemA has sourced high current capacity FETs and solidly bolted them to a heat sink, this could be a great improvement.

You saw one gear set and you're assuming that they will release no others. Maybe the pics were of the M90 hobbyiest build? Spur gears are easier to cut than helical. Japan has strict FPS regulations so it makes sense to have a domestic spur gear and low power spring build and a helical gearbox with higher power build.

I did give my head a shake when I saw an EL-001 board with switches which could not make reliable contact when the selector slider was moved back and forth. The problem is an intermittent one which made diagnosis difficult. The problem was not one due to a bad SCK build. This problem was found in a SystemA built MAX PTW.

Maybe you haven't heard of this problem because we managed to diagnose it without getting onto the PTW users forum. Not every significant piece of PTW related work is brought to the eyes of the PTW users forum. While it is a good public reference, there's lots of stuff that goes on beyond the sight of Sauron.

You're crapping down the throat of a design which is not fully documented, with no user feedback, and one you've been very far from physically touching. It's not very wise to take such a strong stance on something you don't know much about. There are a lot of features which can look hawt or look terrible which can perform below or beyond expectations. I've burned out enough gears and bushings in consumer product lifecycle testing to find out that nature is a perverse bitch. I've built gearboxes with plastic bushings which outlasted similar boxes with sintered bronze bushings. I've seen gear shafts which didn't meet hardness or finish specs lose wear particles to plastic bushings which progressively ground the shafts down leaving substantially unworn bushing surfaces and ground down steel shafts. Photos are nice and all, but the best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry. While there can be glaring errors which indicate probable failure, there are a lot more subtleties which can also cause failure.

I must be crazy because I am a current owner of a PTW Crapalite and I believe that the MP5 PTW is an opportunity for SystemA to address some design deficiencies in their Armalite build. It's a great feeling piece of kit, but I am frustrated by it's inelegant design and high cost. It feels very solid, but it's easily outshot by my well adjusted (and much cheaper) TM P90. I like it as a collection of finely machined parts, but it reminds me of an IPSC race gun which has plenty of careful machining but lacks robustness. Precise fits abound, but at the cost of buckets of $$$. And for all that, it's not combat worthy.

Crummy hopup and mags which drop their followers or fail to feed. Out of nearly 20 PTWs that have passed thru my shop (maybe there are more in Ontario than you thought), over half required mag catch adjustment (grind top surface) to assure consistent engagement and bb feeding. SystemA pursues a nice tight engagement which feels good, but can crank the mag up a the rear. This can affect the registration of the front of the mag (where the important bits are) and cause misfeeding or notfeeding.

I hate to say this and destroy your world. SystemA copied the sector gear and piston design from their AEG line of products. Take a PTW ring sector gear and lay it on top of one of their standard AEG sector gears. You'll find that it as the same tooth profile and pitch circle diameter (circle where teeth mesh). The sector ring is also a complicated shape so it has to be made in powder metal instead of machined heat treatable bar stock as they are with standard AEG gears. Harder tougher properties can be achieved with gears machined from bar stock if the maker decides to go through the trouble.

Their cylinder set has the same inner and outer diameters as their standard AEG cylinders. Their piston has similar dimensions except for it's major diameter to engage a the rails built into the cylinder tube. There are some functional similarities between the Armalite PTW build and the classic AEG build. Some of the areas where SystemA significantly diverged are areas that are terribly wrong like the hop up and breech build. Their doublestack mags bind and fail to feed, and their tappet plate workaround is an inelegant kludge fix which is unfortunately probably ported to the MP5 build.

Both the MP5 and Armalite have features copied (oh noes!) from the V2 mechbox. I don't see how the MP5 gearbox is any more of a bastard V2 box than an Armalite box. Both have separate cylinder assemblies (no more busted V2 front window) and both probably feature a sector gear with similar pitch circle diameters which would probably result in both having very similar cylinder modules.

Count the teeth on the MP5 sector gear. 15 teeth like on the Armalite. Probably same piston and piston stroke.

There are about 40 PTWs in Alberta, and that's the ones I know about. Probably more than that. And I've never heard, seen or know of anyone (other than you) who needed to adjust mag catches, or have these mystical crappy hop-ups.

The electronics are just as likely to fail in the MP5 as in the ARs. It's a fact of life. Accept it. No get to the easy changing of it in the MP5. Wait, let's tear down the whole gun!! Bullshit, pure and simple.

The current PTW has a good track record of running the M150, reliably. No other gun does it. I use the M150, many others do all over the world. This set-up as shown will not.

If Systema is expecting raves from showing pics of average-looking parts in a top-shelf (for price anyways) gun, good luck with that. Current PTW-owners will not be and aren't impressed by this gun. If you can honestly say you are impressed by this gun, I call BS on you. I know you're smarter than that!!!

You expect a certain level of engineering and thought, and you certainly expect them to bring their game up to the next level, and they've fallen very short indeed.

And, I'm not odd, I'm a realist.

http://forums2.blacksierra.net/viewtopic.php?t=209

Read the text.

Madmax has seen 20 in his shop. I personally know of 8-10 PTW's in Ontario and of those I only know one that has sent theirs to get fixed. Madmax doesn't see the average but the extreme cases so if hes seen 20 my guess would be there are at least 60-80 in Ontario. A&A brought in dozens, thepirate does his group orders that mine is from, and I know of at least one other source of PTW's bringing them in. The PTW bug may have started out west but you can't match Ontario for population both of general people and airsofters.

I wonder how many people have the new 2008 one's... i'm hopping to be the first in Quebec/Canada but i doubt it lol

Ontario has the most fields and about ten times the population of Alberta...hyperbole much?

Well, the only public importer left is in Calgary. I'd say Calgary probably would have the highest per capita PTW population at the very least. It doesn't really matter anyways. Manchovie gorilla repair will only get problem AEGs coming thru. Lutnit does have a valid point. Still I have seen poor failure rates in NIB electronics groups and non SCK PTWs sold NIB.

red wolf is taking pre-orders on their MP5-A4.

see it right here

Can't wait for mine :)

Also normal cylinders work in those... no buying special cylinders :p

No. You'll need to buy MP5 PTW-specific cylinders as well as AR cylinders for your M4.

i'm going to go ahead and believe kumi on this one :) what's so big about having planetary gears when they don't feel confident enough with the max build to sell it with m170 springs, but they do it with every v2 magnum gearbox set? who says you need helical gears for running m150? they specifically said that there'll be a max mp5 later, so this version is obviously not designed to handle m150 cylinders just like the gen3 m4's. does that make it shit? you're running on complete speculation, the systema m4 is a VERY wasteful build, they probably figured out where they're wasting money and are making a less gimicky gun (awwww sorry, did you like all those pretty little gears?) with the same performance, perhaps even with some interesting features like piston lock-back so you can enjoy real steel rof with instant trigger response. i've still got my fingers crossed for REAL HOPUP though. ptw hopup is ok, but nowhere near as good as tm; i don't care how much you spent on your guns, the sooner you come to terms with real facts, the sooner you'll stop polluting these boards with your voodoo blahblah.
i'm all for the new placement of the electronic boards. the fet board is nice and stashed away from sliding batteries and yanking cords and is properly heatsinked (noticed how in the 2008 m4 ptw's they put a heatsink around it, meaning that in all likelihood it IS AN ISSUE and is not god's perfect face in the form of an airsoft gun). i'm crossing my fingers that the optical gate/trigger switch board has also been changed because of the frequency of it failing. fast access to electronics that arent supposed to break IS NOT A FEATURE.
personally i see no solid reason for this gun not being fantastic (other than no sliding stock :(:(:(). it's an mp5 (the tm based version is one of their oldest designs and has seen almost 0 revision by the companies that cloned it) that was designed from the ground up with knowledge gained from making the most advanced aeg to date. i'm pretty sure they know more about blinding errors than mcguyver here can speculate from images of a prototype. also, the cylinder gripes here make no sense. not to mention that it weighs 4kg and has working burst! two things we havent seen on an mp5 to date yet, plus they seem to be made as value guns so there hasnt been a REALLY nice one made yet. color me excited, i really like mp5s.

where does it even say that theyre only keeping the parts you named? looks like all you need to do might be simply extend the window in the cylinder which is as simple to them as punching in some numbers on their cnc machine. if this is the only change necessary then the cylinders will be backwards compatible with their m4 series.

now just one more time because it was so goddamn good:
http://icanhascheezburger.files.word...6/roflmfao.jpg

So, how many teeth in any AEG contact each other between the sector gear and the spur gear, any gear type, flat, helical, whatever? 4, 6 maybe? Now how many in a planetary arrangement? Alot more than 4. Alot. And who says the M170 doesn't have a planetary gearbox? It's not released. No info or pics available? Your ignorance is mind-boggling.


Now who's speculating?

I have no problems with my hop-ups. None at all. I own more PTWs than you, have been using them for a hell of alot longer than you, in more versions than you have. But I know nothing about them? I have not seen or heard of anyone out west with all these "mystical" problems you have with hop-ups or mag catches. Are there better hop-ups out there than a PTW, for sure, there is better of any one thing in any gun that what can be found anywhere else, including a PTW. But you can't get it all in one gun at the same time. I know it, you know it, so be real here.

I seem to recall you PM-ing me when you had trouble with your PTW, and only 5 months ago, too? So, what, now I know nothing all of a sudden? And who says you're the PTW expert now? Because you've fixed a few of them? And why have you had to fix them? Poor assembly parctices maybe? Or looking to fix faults that really aren't there?


So, with these failings you supposedly have seen in all these electronics, it's better that they are buried the gun than being accessable? So it's better, or worse for changing? Make up your damn mind. What makes you think they'll be more reliable, simply location. Grease contamination from the gear train is not an issue, eh?


Surely to God Systema knows more about the PTW than me. But they have made mistakes in the past on PTW, that's for certain. It took them 3 years and 3 revisions to get it right. And how many of those Gen 1 owners who bought them when they were new were impressed by the initial offering? I'll tell you, not very many. So skepticism is warranted here, especially on a radical departure from their tried and tested format, whether you agree with it or not.

They showed the pics, they open themselves up for whatever comments to them. And to make it worse, now there are choices for gears? So which gears go where and when? Now do we get into modding these for varying ROF or load? Should this even be necessary when you are spending $2K on a gun? The AR is ready out-of-the-box for M90-M150, no internal changes, just a battery and cylinder. My God, that's awful to be built like that!!

You have few rational arguments here. You are irrationally displaying enthusiasm, almost like a retailer tries to pump up a product, whether it's potentially flawed or not. If the M4 PTW (a far superior design) is so flawed with 4 years and 4 revisions to date, tested and used by thousand of people all over the world, why would this "hybrid" be better? Your logic is ridiculous.

And if you think that I'm the only one who thinks this way, you're mistaken.

Is it a far superior design? How the fuck does the all mighty mcguyver know?
Planetary, helical, spur gears all have their andvantages and disadvantages. Without being part of the design for this product I don't think anyone on these boards is in the position to accept or reject this design as being "superior". I understand you own a pile of PTW M4's, but these stupid ass claims of their "superior design" based on something you havn't seen or used makes me want to block your ignorant posts from my fragile eyes and wait for Carl to let me know how the real deal looks.

I'm hopeful the MP5 turns out to be a beauty, but until then I'm considering un-retiring my modded TM M16a2 in light of the fact that it far outranges and outperformes my PTW M4 :eek: What a fucking terrible thing to say!@!!!!@!@@

http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...l?prodID=21321

That is what manchovie is referring to and there are no planetary gears in that mechbox.

*Edited for improper content*

You, sir, are an asshole, and a royal fucktard of one at that. It's a shame too, since at one point I really envied the experience you have with Systemas on the whole and I've respected your points regarding the PTW. While you and others bickered in this thread about what may or may not be with regards to the MP5, you managed to present facts and anecdotes and generally supported your statements well.

But now not only have you ventured purely into speculation regarding MadMax's business, you've knowingly posted it in such a manner so as to draw doubt and skepticism regarding his business practices and his character, and that's something I can't sit by idly and watch. Perhaps Carl will say something to defend himself, or perhaps he'll throw his hands in the air and say "fuck it" because he has more pressing matters to deal with where his business is concerned. But what I know for sure is that he won't come here and bring a black mark upon another based purely on speculation, nor would he ever tell anyone to fuck off.

So fuck you. Asshole.

1) I'm doing a review because I'm genuinely interested and I'm going to ShotShow where the MP5 will be first publicly contacted. I'm not an importer though. Wouldn't you want to see it if you were going there to market your companys products? I'm going to see my retailers, see some cool hardware, play craps, and throw some lead.

2) I stock PTW parts because I have a good rapport with SystemA from ASCA days. Manchovie does PTW repairs to provide a rare service to local PTW users who have trouble getting PTW parts. Between the two of us, we have a very strong technical base for diagnosing difficult problems. Bartek does good mechanical work, and I have some background and equipment for electronics work.

3) AR bashing is not intended to be a complete diss of the PTW AR build. It is a very strong build with generally good engineering. It does suffer from critical flaws which are often understated to the point of intentional ignorance. You have no idea how many technical gripes we have with most AEGs and GBBs of all types. We're not racist, we bitch about everybody. That being said we do look to improve things when we do repairs and we try to completely disclose the pros and cons of our work and the products we've come in direct contact with.

There are language issues when SystemA makes news releases. Hyperbole is typical of most press releases from most Asian manufacturers. You should see the press releases I get from CA, ICS, and other makers of airsoft goods.

4) To my knowledge there are no exclusive agreements that SystemA has made with Canadian importers. I am kept abreast of these details as there are sales regions I am required to respect (e.g. I can't sell SystemA products to the US or abroad).

Nobody has the MP5 yet and will probably not until March. I would suspect that an MP5 PTW released at significantly less than the base build of the AR PTW will command a price significantly less than the CDN retail price of a AR PTW. I don't know where you're getting $2k or making a judgement prior to any reviews.

mcguyver, I use to really enjoy reading your posts based on your experience with the PTW line, but I find your last couple of posts to be unappealing and downright low. The prejudice and now the assumptions behind motives are a real turnoff and totally uncalled for. You're bordering on "having an opinion" and being "a psycho zealot."

The attitude in here is starting to stink - please keep it clean, EVERYBODY (I'm also referring to the other guys who are starting to chime in) or I'm going to lock this thread. There's some good discussion going on in here, so let's keep it educational. I don't want to lock it because it was ruined by a couple of guys who felt the need to start calling each other names and kicking sand in each other's eyes. play nice.

Alan and Brian, you are right. I was an asshole, and your were right for telling me so Alan. I've been called that before, and perhaps sometimes I don't learn.

And Carl, I apologize for getting into your business end of things. It was totally uncalled for. I will not sit here and make excuses, there are none.

One thing I won't apologize for is my opinion of the MP5. I've formed it based on the pre-release photos and information, and am unlikely to alter it. I won't own one, so fat chance on me seeing one, but who knows. Call me stubborn, but that's how I see it.