Some people have been asking what AI is up to...
 

*important announcement* Sept 10th
I'm going to be showing off my prototypes at the TTAC3 anniversary game! Brian has graciously shared his event with me so I can bring my grenades to blow up people in his free game evening. You'll get a chance to be on either end of my newest invention.

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=43615

You'll be free to ask questions and free to talk about my product (no non disclosure agreement), but I have to restrict detail photography of my prototypes. Action photos and videography is fine, but no close up pics please.
/end

After posting in the Madbull thread, I've been asked several times what super special injection moulded product I was working on for Airsoft Innovations. I got to see my injection mould progress today for the first time so this project has become very real to me. For the past 6 weeks it's been a bit of an abstraction. Digital solid models sent off to a high class mould maker based on working prototypes have become much closer to an incarnation in hardened expensive steel.

I'm going to let the cat squeak out of the bag a bit:

I've developed a reusable grenade that is actually combat effective! I'm not going to release any pictures or details on how it works until patent filings have been acknowledged by USPTO, but they should be getting back to me in a couple weeks after which I might be releasing photos and videos of the prototypes in action.

Design and testing is complete and the injection moulds are just passed half finished. They're gorgeous, I visited my mould maker today and saw my product in gleaming copper. Some of the mould is made by machining copper electrodes which are used to erode their shape into hard steel. The really cool bit about this method is that you see the shape of your product in copper before it's used to erode a cavity shape into hard steel. I saw my grenade made in solid shining copper today.

Even after the mould is finished there's usually a few weeks of adjustment rework to be made. It's difficult to hit precise part dimensions in injection moulding. There is often a period of small adjustments made to a mould (bit of material removal here and there) to get parts to fit just right. Then I've got machined parts to make. I save this process to the end of the mould adjustment phase as it's easy to get close tolerances with CNC machining and adjustments in the CNC code are easy to make. I make test shots first to plan mould adjustments until the plastic bits work with each other, then fitment adjustments are made to the machined bits to fit the plastic parts. It's a long drawn process making stuff that works just right which is why I respect TM so much. Their plastic parts fit so well together with their metal bits I suspect they go for broke in mould adjustment, maybe even going as far as 2nd or 3rd generation tooling to make things fit just right. I can't afford multiple generations of moulds so I have to design stuff that allows for adjustment in the first generation mould.

Anyways onto specs for my grenade:

-blasts 180 bbs
-very even coverage (80% kill rate in a 15'x15' room on direct line of sight)
-very consistent delay factory set to 3s +/- 0.5s, no adjustment required
-completely reusable (replace gas, bbs)
-powered by propane (duh) or HFC134a (simple mode change involved)
-high power (blast velocity around 150fps, less with HFC134a)
-no blown off parts to recover, but you can lose the pin if you don't keep track of it
-lightweight build to reduce goggle knockoff hazard
-easy to maintain and clean
-fits standard military grenade pouches

I'm really excited about this product. I really changed the game in product trials. I booked an indoor airsoft arena for a private game and signed on about a dozen trustworthy players onto non disclosure agreements. Several prototypes were gamed to further refine my product. It's turned into a real game changer, I can't wait to see it in action on fields!

If you want to know more, you'll unfortunately have to wait. These are all the details I'm comfortable releasing. I do not want to publicly disclose my invention until various patent offices have acknowledged reception of my patent applications. This grenade is quite novel, it'll be patented in several countries.

*jaw-dropping action*

Although, now that I remembered your thread a while back asking about grenades, we probably should've expected it. :D

Can you tell us if they are Pineapples, Lemon or M67's ??

Sweet can't wait! Hope to hear soon about those :D

oh man, i cant wait to see how they turn out. i definatly be interested in replaceing my current "grenades" (tennis balls with bang written on them) :)

$$?

Does it matter? it goes boom! :P

+1

I think if he wanted to include it, he might of. Thats if hes even broken it down to a set price range yet.

Anywhoo, I think its great what you've got going man. That AI adaptor was really inventive and with this its just another step in a good direction. Can't wait to see what it looks like, how it performs etc etc.

Sounds very interesting, I can't wait to see these things. I've got a few of the Escort grenades but with how much they cost I've been very reluctant to throw them in the feild.

I can't wait. Nothing says "I love you" like a well built grenade.

Unfortunately it's going to be the most expensive grenade on the market. I have the disadvantage of higher costs of manufacturing here and my product is quite feature rich. It'll be a bit more expensive than the Deepfire grenade at around $65, but it'll be the most combat effective grenade on the market by a good margin. It even outperforms most pyro grenades in terms of bb distribution and ease of deployment, not to mention safety issues.

I considered making my grenade less feature rich and more economical for outdoor hucking, but I found that outdoor performance was generally poor. The problem I face is that bbs do not penetrate tall grass well. If I made the grenade powerful enough to blast through grass, it'd be too dangerous indoors where there's no ground grass to punch through. With that in mind I moved to making the product perform excellently instead of cheap enough to lose. It was a tough decision, but the safety issue of making a grenade penetrate grass yet not dangerous without grass was impossible to resolve.

It's not really that difficult to imagine. Take your AEG and lay it sideways and blast through dense grass. You won't be able to get much of a shot range with even a 400fps rifle. Imagine making a grenade that blasted 180bbs 400fps into a room at close range. One of my safety requirements was making my grenade dive safe. I had the fun task of repeatedly laying myself onto my own grenades taking half the bb load in the belly (the other half come out in directions not pointing at me). Hurts like a bitch getting 90 pellets in one zone, but no broken skin.

I also face the spectre of a user leaving a charged grenade in a car trunk during the summer. Trunk temperatures can get as high as 75C which cranks propane up to a whopping 500psi! That kind of pressure regime is dangerously high so I include two resettable safety features (one redundancy) to prevent a grenade from discharging at 500psi.

My grenade is going to be easy to maintain. All of the parts are designed to be hard wearing and easy to replace. I even use some easily attainable parts. The most heavily worn oring is the same oring type used in AEG pistons. I haven't worn one out in lifecycle tests yet, but if you manage to damage yours, you can get your grenade working if you have a spare AEG oring. The pull pin (only easily lost bit) can be replaced by a bent piece of hangar wire. The hardened wire pins I'll supply last longer, but you don't have to wait for a replacement pin. You can easily fashion a standby replacement from a hangar while your replacement is in the mail (or even not bother with replacing it with an AI pin). The design is quite robust. While failures are quite infrequent, the few that can occur are easily fixed with "limp along" fixes that are not very frustrating. Nothing worse than having a cool piece of kit out of commission while you wait a week for a spare part.

I worked my ass off designing this thing to be excellent. I've already started pursuing improvements, but my finances are exhausted now. I have to launch before I run out of dough to make my launch. Just like when I launched my V1 adaptor. I worked on it until I had to launch it on my credit card. Can't do that now since it's already maxed...

That answers most of my questions. Good to know that someone else can safely be a hero and save my ass. ;)

All I can say is
 

I've seen it felt it and used it... it is everything an airsoft grenade should be and more.

I can't wait till the thing comes to market... I'll be first in line to buy half a dozen.

for CQB.... it is the one thing that has been absent from our training.. and in fact one of the most effective tools for clearing structures.

In the tests in both proof of concept and prototype the AI grenade surpassed all of the criteria I consider necessary for an effective grenade.

Loud report, explosive distribution of BBs, Easily deployed, Quickly reloaded, and with a 100% reliable delay.... and a "grenady" shape.

AI has hit the mark with this ... and everyone will want a brace of them regardless of the cost.

I'll be down for one.
How does it fare with small chucks and tosses?

Very strong design. I did not have a single prototype damaged by a strong throw against a wall or floor.

My real concern is users throwing grenades into someone else's face. I tried my best to keep the thing light, but 180bbs and gas have a finite weight which can still hurt if you get directly beaned. I had someone throw grenades at my head to see if they could dislodge my goggles a bunch of times. It hurt my face when he missed the goggles, but good pball goggles were very difficult to dislodge. I wish I had a mannequin head.

The holy grail has been found????

not yet. I'm still working on a launchable version.

if you make one that can be fired from an m203 i'm sure there will be a long line of people waiting to pleasure you.

Ummmm.... well... what the heck, +1

I'm kind of kidding but I'd really do want to make a 203 version. I have to first figure out if I can make one light enough to be fired safely. I'm really concerned with the goggle knockoff issues, so that'll be the first design challenge I'll have to overcome if I am to release a launchable version of my grenade.

Mortar perhaps, with propellant discharge when round is dropped in launch tube. Set delay for "x" seconds, drop down tube and BINGO!!!

Propellant could be a propane bottle good for "x" number of shots? Or even a 12g CO2? Maybe with adjustable delay you could choose airburst or ground burst?

Nice to see you haven't just been watching TV this whole time (like me)!!!

Dibs!

W.

Well, I did play with a butane combustion mortar for a time. I worked out a nifty little arrangement which worked very much like a real mortar with cheap shells that threw nerf rockets. I thought about productizing it, but the close hit damage potential was not easy to remove. I didn't like how easy it would be to tilt the tube forwards and belt someone in the face so I abandoned the project. Also, mortars aren't really in the centre of airsoft game needs so it would be hard for me to amortize tooling costs. Risk of injury coupled with lowish appeal aren't good combos for products.

Someday I want to make a gallery of the goofy crap that got implemented into materials but abandoned for one reason or another. It'd make for some interesting browsing. It takes a lot of tries to land on a good feasible product. My batting average looks like crap.

I don't have a TV. I hate most TV shows and the ads often bug the hell out of me.

Awww.. Right when I start designing my grenade AI has to come out with something that'll be 9000% better.

My indoor team will probobly order 6 of these if they're ready by winter time.

nice

Is there the option of using it as a 'noise only' distraction device?

Funny how no one has mentioned that this is Canadian Product designed by a Canadian in a verry strong market to compet in.

Max to you Sir I take off my hat and congradulat you on your latest product.

Can't wait till they are out and in use maybe we can do the product release in October. lets say October 13th LOL.

I am proud to call Max the Airsoft King of Canada, and the futur of Airsoft in Canada.

As far as I can remember it could, jumps about 4 feet in the air with loud BANG!
I do not think it is intended use feature though, but very cool one.

Thats only what the CQB/skirmish players think. But yea, I agree about the danger part.

Well, thats obvious, especially since we're going to be able to buy a grenade that ACTUALLY WORKS well for about $70-100 unlike most made in Japan, China and Taiwan which we pay excessive duties and shipping fees for. Given its what Max says, his company should achieve market penetration for grenades after passing the product development stage of marketing.

Rob you were just looking for an excuse to use the word "Penetration" :)


Carl can't wait to see the product. I've got two frag grenade pouches that need to be used for things other than smoke grenades and well err Smokes :)
Were there moisture tests done for submerged grenades?
Vehicle tests (Driving a vehicle over) for them as well?

I'm sure all sorts of players who play different styles of games are looking at these and are going hmmmmm (If you people don't get that refrence your too young and go away! :) ).

And lastly for this post anyways I vote a working M203 instead of mortar since I see plenty of people with 203s (or other grenade launcher variations) on all sorts of fields (be it Indoor, outdoor, cqb, skirmish, milsim, themesoft or any other stupid tag you want to place on your type of airsoft).

All I want is an ETA brother. I know, for sure, that just the guys I hang with will want 3 each.

Personally, the times I've wanted a grenade in an outdoor scenario is when someone's holed up in/behind a bunker/foxhole/small hill/building/etc and I can get close enough to throw something in but not advance any farther to do the job with an AEG....

MadMax - once you've got the patent paperwork and stuff in place you should put your first run of 'nades up for pre-order: I'm sure I'm not the only one with enough faith in AI to put my money up front before seeing one.... (might give you enough cash to start a second run sooner?)

I'd be willing to put up for pre-order also.

W.

+3

+4 also how does it fare landing in some dirt? is it strickly for indoor use or can it still be used in a outdoor senario?

+1 for the preorder
also would like to know about the moisture tests

- Not really, when tossed it would make a thud indoors, outside, not so much. When the BB's eject there is noise but it's not like a pyrotechnic grenade ..mmmpmmhphmm .. darn non disclosure agreement..

Their fun, Their easy to use, durable, reusable and found that they work -great- .. that's all I gotta and can say for now ;)

Impervious to moisture due to mode of operation, not a concern...

I don't think you would want to immerse them.. but then why would you?

What? You've never waded chest deep in a swamp to get the upper hand???

Mud incursion could adversely affect the performance of my grenade as it might foul certain mechanisms. Otherwide, it should be ok with getting wet. All of the parts are pretty corrosion resistant, but it probably isn't dishwasher safe.

Hehe! I find it funny that you intentionally told someone to chuck your grenades at your head! But I guess it must be done, all in the name of safety :P. Good luck with your product. I assume it will be very popular.

I'd take 3-5 units on pre order. Been watching this with great anticipation! Way to go, Max.

Hopefully madbull doesn't rip this off aswell...

From here on, I'm boycotting madbull products.

So this grenade only good (effective) for indoor use?

It's really aimed at the CQC market as the grass penetration problems limit outdoor uses. Still, it'd work well clearing trenches or outdoor structures.

There are some features which are aimed to improve outdoor performance which will be unveiled in a couple weeks.

It'd be nice if it you could field strip it, and clean it in the unlikely (or likely) event it gets mud, or other gunk in it.

Just a thought...

I'm interested... Keep us posted.

updates?

What.... it was 2 weeks ago... product development takes months not days...granted it is a damn cool toy.. and I can't wait either!!

Actually, I'm planning to do a public demo very soon. Details to follow.

i would be in for a preorder of 3 or so for sure. i know after using other AI products i have alot of faith that it will be top quality and well worth the cost.

What happens If you throw your gernade and cannot recover the pieces too it?

Were you not listening? It doesn't have loose pieces to fly off, the only loose piece you may end up loosing is the pull pin. On another note I CANNOT wait to see these in action. Goodluck.

Wow. wow. wow. wow. wow.
Good luck with your product!

AI Grenade Public Premier at TTAC3 Friday Sept 14.
 

MADMAX has just informed me that pre-preduction prototypes of Airsoft Innovations soon to be released BB Frag grenade will be showcased at TTAC3 this Friday Sept 14 at our 2nd year milestone free event.
This is the first public demonstration of this new product.

Although the production run is some time away the pre-production prototypes (100% operational and ready to be tossed ) will illustrate clearly the effectivness and simplicity of operation of AI's entry into the re-useable grenade market.

Please be advised that no close up photography of these grenades will be allowed for confidentiality reasons.

But you can see them in person... and even get to try one out.

You've heard the rumors.... now you can Check it out for yourself.. Come to TTAC3 this Friday and witness the public launch of this very important product.

( no grenades will be available for sale, these are pre-production prototypes, Production grenades will be hitting the market in the not to distant future

not too good for getting around grass but heck i'd use em outdoors here in BC. Nothing like a good toss into the fort or the crack shack that we got out here where there's no grass to get in the way :) put me down for a pre-order and a buncha spare pins while i'm at it! time to shop for grenade pouches now

Well, I included a short timer option that is very easy to set. It's possible to fuse my grenades for a 1.5s delay to make consistent airbursts. You can set the timing on the field (to 1.5s but not back to 3s). Airbursts don't have the problems of grass attenuation, but you HAVE to throw from a position with cover. It's very easy to suicide oneself with an airbursting grenade as the pellet range is quite far. Airburst grenades are really defensive grenades.

Airburst timing is not feasible with any other currently available airsoft grenade. Their timers are too inconsistent (+/- 3s at best!) to risk cooking off time or setting for a short average initiation time.

I designed my pins to be replacable with wire from typical coat hangers. I picked the diameter because i noticed a lot of lost pins in user testing. The music wire pins I'll supply will be more durable (hanger wire is soft), but you can still field your nades if you're waiting for spare pins in the mail. The only other part which broke in extensive testing was easily fixed with a wad of kleenex. My grenade is very robust. Even if you manage to bust it in a way that arose in user testing, you can limp it along with under a minute of improvisation.

That's very ingenious of you, and I'm sure a lot of people will appreciate your ingenuity!

not having seen the product, there is one thing I want to ask or suggest as an option. Is there a small hole or loop somewhere to tie some flag tape to where it doesn't really get in the way of operation? This would be kind of helpful to anyone who uses it outdoors so they can find where it landed easier if the grenade is a neutral color that doesnt stand out much, or to put something to mark your grenade from everyone elses just to ID it?

This is like a wet dream come true.... looking forward to see how it works

I suggest a pimped out bling version with an embedded tracking device, that allows it to be found by a handheld locating device... aww yeah.

I can't wait. If these work as advertised, you'd better have a good manufacturing facility set up cuz you'll be busy.

I want one you can strap to your chest. :)

there is one made already http://www.007airsoft.com/products/p...ages/11050.jpg

And....explode it there?
Like.....a CAREBEARSTARE?

I have specs for a simple electronic locating device that you could use any AM/FM radio to track down...

W.

hey carl, how bout a gold or chrome version! can't beat chrome for bling and the holy shit factor if it's flying towards you..WUUUUUUUUH.

i know you've taken a few off the face so i'm assuming that no one is in for a concussion if taken off the top of the head from a long lob? ie lobbing up to second level of drug lab or marine base at FR?

and just curious about the toughness of it. you mentioned that people have tossed it off of walls and bounced it on the floor. would you compare the force to be lob-ish or 50mph pitch?

.. Can't wait for this.

They're pretty tough, but I wouldn't Nolan Ryan it into an I beam or anything. Very strong throws are not a good idea for the primary reason that you could belt someones goggles off. The further you whip it, the more likely you'll lose it and you'll have less control over where it ends up.

In combat, one doesn't have to worry about beaning someone with a live grenade. Airsofters will have to exercise a degree of consideration when deploying grenades.

Bean unto others as you would have them bean onto you.

slogan for the box?

madmax I know your really busy with this but I can not wait to see whats next. Propane adapter and now this good stuff sir good stuff.

Well, I've been losing a lot of sleep thinking about a launchable version of my grenade.

I came up with an impact trigger last night that is armed by the launch impulse from an underslung rifle launcher. I'm hoping there's enough consistency between launcher manufacturers that I can make a generic grenade for most launchers.

I have to tackle the problem of reducing my grenade weight even further to prevent a player from blowing the goggles off of someone else though. That is probably going to be the biggest design challenge which might make me abandon the launched grenade.

Light weight durable materials: Aluminum, Carbon Fiber, ABS, and that rubbery material... forgot its name. The one that protects platoons so boats don't get damage.

Woot!!!

My injection mould was tested a week ago and it's very close to working. I've got a few small problems, but they should be surmountable.

It's very cool seeing the first plastic shots. I've been throwing them around for a few days now.

Any (general) idea how far away from public launch these little devil's are? I also would be willing to pre-order if the option becomes available.

I might be a couple weeks away from starting a preorder for grenades to be delivered 6wks from now. I've still got a lot of issues to deal with like the machined parts and some mould adjustments, but at least I'm not worried that my mould is completely dysfunctional which sometimes happens. Something catestrophic like that would have set me back by a year to make the dough to make another mould.

Awesome news Max, I as well as allot of others I'm sure; cant wait to get my grubby little hands on some of these!

+1 - KUDOS.

Any updates?

+1 to all the above Max, good on you to get something in the works. Can't wait to hear the feedback from the display :) Good luck and keep up the good work!

Sorry, not much to say in terms of updates. I've been working on some last minute improvements that look feasible. One is a safety related fix to the design. The other is to deal with an amateurish mistake I made.

I just got an ultrasonic welder which should be arriving today. I'm pretty excited as it's a pretty cool piece of equipment.

^?! Nice Purchase man, ARe you planning on building stock for release so you dont just have people getting turned off by the only ones on the market being taken by like 3 people?

I'm going to have to finance the first manufacturing run with some help with an advance preorder. The preorder will help me gauge how much $$$ I have to borrow for the first major manufacturing run. As much as I'd like to survey players to get an idea of how much they'd pay for a grenade (to estimate demand), nothing is as accurate as a count of cash brought to the barrel head.

Preorder grenades will be injection moulded in a special colour which will never be made again for those who got in on a very special first order and helped me launch my product.

I'll be posting very good video footage and detailed photos of my product as I open the preorder for my first grenades. I'm renting a high speed camera that wings off a blazing 4000 frames per second at megapixel resolution to showcase this product. I won't be asking people to buy into an imaginary product.

I probably won't even use the grenade in a game, but just buy it for the cool factor! Even though a video will be nice, I don't think most people will need it to be satisfied about buying your grenade MadMax :).

I'd be down for the pre-order, looking forward to the vid/piccies, see what you've been slaving away at lol :)

Also i think you should do the preorder off your website that way people like me can use e-commerce rather then attempting to EMT you money

Does anyone have Escort and PFI grenades that they can loan me? I'm going to be blowing a big chunk of dough on a days rental of a high speed camera. Filming my product won't take the whole day so I'd like to use the rest of it to shoot some interesting comparison footage. I also plan to get footage of GBBs in action. I might even have enough time to show some common malfunctions in slo mo to make it more clear how our stuff breaks.

Of course I'll be shooting the obligatory bb thru an AOL CD and a bunch of other neat things to maximize my day's rental.

So, can anyone loan me some competitor grenades? I had a PFI once, but it broke early in it's life and I tossed it. I've got a DeepFire but nothing else.

i really want to see the videos! watching stuff from high speed camera's is cool. seeing stuff drop tested and recorded with them and seeing what you thought was a pretty rigid material having waves throughout it is very entertaining. especially when the goal is to wait for it to break. just let us know when to throw the monies down

Do you have an ETA on that video your making?

whats the word on this?