Going the RE-ENACTOR way.
 

I am starting this thread so we can discuss this without tagging onto a thread that was not meant for it.

Me? All for it. It's easy to do, it's an excellent start, it costs nothing more at the moment than making a personal effort.

All we have to do is change a bit of vocabulary, be careful what we do, respect federal laws, be of legal age, and never play outside of authorized areas. It's all basic common sense.

When that personal part is done, there will be a few others here who will have started the administrative and paperwork process to make this official.

After that, it's not rocket science.

(No, I am not an administrator or moderator, but I am a re-enactor in more than one time period of history).

Let's talk.

Am just waiting for the chairsofters to pounce on you Grey. :P

Hehe, I DO think it's a decent route to go though.

If you think that becoming a "re-enactor" will allow you get access to a new supply of imported guns, think again. The CBSA has already declined approval to both the military and police colleges to import airsoft guns for training purposes. And these guys can possess and import prohibited weapons, artillery, etc.

I, myself am In total agreement with this. It requires little personal effort, as Greylocks mentioned, for hopefully great returns regarding the status of this activity we all deeply cherish.

I don't think this is something that is seen as a way of getting a new supply of imported guns, but as a way to make airsoft apeal more to the common person.

Or at least, less unappealing to misguided social crusaders.

I dont think anything will happen, but I do know how the re-enactment world works and what it CAN lead to if done right. It hurts nothing and nobody to start here, simply, all of us.

This can lead, with time, to better things and perhaps a revision of the laws. It will take years.

If we're not even willing to give this a shot, then you are right and I'll happily give up.

I see your point Grey, but it also stands to reason that rules fro re-enactrs in the airsoft world would have to be establishd an adhered to. You can't decide to be a re-enactor and wear Cadpat while carrying an AUG. You would have to be a member of a specific group, own specific issue kit, weapons, etc. Also, you can't be a re-enactor for non-Canadian events, like Somalia, the U.S., or any other places we haven't been.

It sounds like an interesting endeavour, but I really don't know what the outcome of all this will be. But I suppose that someone has to start the ball rolling and see where it goes.

Let me say firstly I support this idea, as I am a re-enactor in a variety of time-periods (Late Middle Ages, American Civil War Society, and Roman Empire).

I was considering doing a pre-Confederation Courer de Bois outfit and building up a custom one-off gas powered Brown Bess retrofitted into a modern flintlock body (flintlocks and pre-1898 replicas are not considered firearms, they are considered antiques; they require no PAL to purchase or possess - thus converting one is breaking no laws. Is this the future of airsoft for us as it becomes harder to import realistic-looking modern firearms? Who knows?) using a donated JAC powerplant and building an internal reservoir using the guts from a Tanaka AICS mag, or possibly a Marushin M500 shotgun buttstock reservoir.

I was hoping to rebarrel it in 8mm, but I can't find a good source of 8mm aftermarket tightbores, especially in the length I want (+1000mm - I'm not wanting the carbine version of the Bess). Additionally, I have some concerns about scratching said inner barrel or tearing the (yet to be built) custom hopup by using the loading rod/ramrod to seat the BBs.

I'm also concerned that even with the extended range and (obviously) higher than 400 fps, my ROF with hand-loaded pellets will leave me outgunned by those with boxmags and full-auto on the field.

Anyone have any ideas/suggestions?

Reenactor is the wrong term to use. Look up the definition and you'll see airsoft doesnt even come close to being reenacting. Simulation would be a better term to use. Modern Military Simulation.

Er, why could we not re-enact events that say Canada was not apart of? We have people "Skruface" above that do "medieval" times re-enactments. I've part taken in medieval events before, and it was not as a Canadian soldier trying to hold off the English! Because, seriously if you can find a text book that says we had troops waging war flying the Canadian colours in say the "Crusades" then you sir have found a book full of shit.


And all we'd need to do to fix the issue of specific "kits" ((some people do make their own anyway)) is simply address it with that this group is comprised of people that enjoy this as a hobby. And we are all on our own budgets. Unless this progresses and we get gov. grants to feilds and such were we could start building up rental "kits" that we could get more people involved with. Same as the re-enactor groups out there today do it. Go down and rent a red coat and try to fight off the Blue coats.

While I think it's an interesting idea I do see the same problems as have already been pointed out. kit matching, period matching, game style. We are much more closely related to paintball then we are to reinacting.

I like the idea. Besides if it doesn't work out we can always come up with plan B. Like referring to ourselves as Tactical Studies Think Tank, using simulation to do research or something.

Guys, kit choosing and all that happens LATER! After all is set!

Geeze, start SMALL, it hurts nothing to give this a shot. See where it leads with patience.

The idea is to play the government's game and using existing terminology that WORKS. It's a small step in a direction that is more likely to work IF we give it time.

If you dont want to do this, then dont. Call yourself whatever you want.

But I'll tell you from direct experience that being a re-enactor is seen in a far better light than what we have now, and that is a fact we can use.

I think going the re-enactor way is a positive step. It may not change anything but on the other hand it might. At the very least it sounds better. For example if I was asked what hobbies do I do, saying that I participate in military style re-enactions sounds a hole lot more mature and credible than to say, I play airsoft.
That and the fact that so many stores now sell the softair products, which inevitably get confused with airsoft by the public. I think getting away from the term airsoft will help further our sports life.
Using the terms re-enactors or as Brian stated on the other thread, re-creators would be the way to go.
At any rate this looks like a positive direction for the sport.

You have to look at this in the context of the current mindset of our government and the law. Guys with antique muzzle loaders or swords playing war is not a very threatening thing. Guys running around with current military patterns carrying what appears to be illegal assault rifles, well, you don't need to be a genius to figure that out.

Now Skruface has a good idea. You can't have a replica of a muzzle loader. It is exempt from the law on both real and replica grounds.

Now tell me, how would you go about getting either government approval or as some suggest funding to use illegal replicas? I can tell you for 101% certainty that you will get neither. Now, if you could prove it falls on grounds of remembering our historical events (ie promoting Canadian culture), perhaps you have a chance. But what realistic bureaucrat will approve of a bunch of white guys re-enacting "Black Hawk Down" in southern Ontario. You'd need to have alot of Somalians involved, find a desert setting, etc. to even have a hope.

But you may have a chance with the Riel Rebellion, or the Plains of Abraham battle perhaps. But that's not possible or even likely with guys in MARPAT or Cadpat using MP5's or M4's.

I mean, c'mon!!

Re-enactments happen quite alot in the U.S.. Look at what they do and see how it fits with what you guys are proposing. Then add in that their re-enactments would never be approved by our useless government, then you'll see what you're up against and tailor your strategy accordingly.

Well there is always WW2, or peace-keeping operations...

Airsoft is nothing like reenacting, END OF STORY. Hate to ruin your fun, but there it is. Nothing good can come from us trying to call ourselves reenactors. For one, it will greatly offend real reenactors and history buffs, making our sport even further of an outcast sport within the military enthusiast community. And if a reporter ever looked up the deffinition of reenacting, do you think they'd paint us in a positive light? Hell no. They'd potray us badly, as people with something to hide, as people who can only get away with playing our sport by trying to pass ourselves off as reenactors. The bottom line is, because of the nature of our sport, we can never be truthfully called reenactors. Period. Argue all you want but thats the truth.

Read the deffinition of reenacting if you dont believe me. Then tell me how airsoft could possibly be considered that.
http://www.answers.com/reenacting&r=67
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_reenactment

Now, you want to change the name of the sport and become more pc, more public friendly, great. But not to reenacting.

Modern Military Simulation would work fine. It'd achive the same goals without the risk of pissing people off.

It just takes one or two people and everyone jumps on the "WOOT GREAT IDEA!" bandwagon.

Airsoft is hardly re-enacting as most events have artificially created situations (and sometimes no storyline at all). A more people-friendly marketing fashion would be to portray Airsoft as another spot just like paint-ball.

Anyways, just to remind you all (who have since forgotten...) Our sport is at risk of a ban NOT because the sport is intimidating (as well as the name)--It is because dim-witted kids are wielding them in public. It doesn't matter what we call ourselves... replica weapons will be banned because of foolish people (Whether we call ourself Airsoft players or re-enacters is irrelevant).

If you haven't noticed yet, the police are using Airsoft guns as a scapegoat for the cause of many of their problems. The problem is the stupid people wielding them in public that THEY CHOOSE NOT TO ARREST.

Lets say this idea passes and we brand ourselves as re-enactors.
You've pretty much killed off all chances of outside people becoming interested in our SPORT. People are much more interested in trying a new SPORT than anything with "re-enact" in the name.

I dis-approve of this thread.
-VM

In case you don't notice, pretty much everything suggested here has already been practiced by a specific group on ASC for some time. It is called In Country. Go talk to Meat/Bravo Six/LT or whatever he likes to be called and look at their pictures. That's undoubtedly re-enactment to the T.

SF said it before I could. What we've been doing with the In Country / Bravo Company group conforms exactly to what you're talking about. If you want to debate it you can try, but when you're using exact equipment, tactics, mindset, and language while carrying a load of shit you don't need to AND living as close as possible to the individuals involved in a specific historic event.. I'm pretty sure that qualifies. Ironically, it's exactly what most people look for in airsoft - a realistic authentic tactical experience. Anyways. Airsoft and reenacting mix just fine if it's done properly, and not half assed like most of us do.

That's an affirmative except for one thing. All the commie VCs are white guys.:confused: They can't be all Russian advisers or former GIs crossed over to the other side, can they?:)

That's a pretty broad definition, and as long as we twist the storyline a bit on the milsim games, then it'll still fit the re-enactment definition.

Ok, there isn't much jungle warfare in Afganistan to be re-enacted in most place across Canada. But I mean the CDN Forces does enough peace keeping mission around the world that would have some jungle warfare that we can base our milsims around.

The gov't can't really say we're not re-enacting if we loosely base the game around these missions because that dis-credit the missions our forces take oversea at the same time. There isn't anything that prevents us in re-enacting relatively unknown events.

Also, I'm sure there are CDN Forces using weapons other than our standard issues, and I'm sure there are battles the CDN Forces might be in other uniforms other than our own. (Which would allow us to wear different BDUs and carry different loadouts, and also, a lot of time it's usually a joint mission, so we have even more choices.)

I still see it as going to work out unless something really concrete beats against it.

This sounds like a cool idea. I'm up for it, sign me up if/when you get the ball rolling.

Just out of curiousity, would it work if we registered clubs/associations based on LARP (live action role play)?

A lot of folks here are questioning re-enacting of specific battles that have nothing to do with Canada.
I will point towards the Medieval folks, the 18th century people, and so on. They often do not re-enact actual battles.
They DO re-enact Tactics, Methods, Equipment use, Team actions.

We can re-enact Canadian troops, other countrie's troops, terrorists, operatives. That covers all the equipment and uniforms I can think of. We can also re-enact battles in other countries (Viet-Nam comes to mind and is already done).

We can do exactly the same and say we reproduce tactics, methods, and events such as "the people who rescued the Christian Hostages in Iraq". That is recent history, it happened, and AID WORKERS were saved.

Look at all the words I just used; we're 'studying' tactics that helped 'rescue innocent aid workers' and learning from it.

I could have said "We're doing a military simulation where we shoot unsuspecting guards to rescue personnel that were about to be decapitated. Us, the hostages and the guards about to decapitate were not harmed in the event because we use real looking machine guns."

What do you think would go down best? Is it so hard to change the words we use?

To those of you who dont know about the re-enactment world, I suggest you study a bit more on it. See what they do, how they do it, and most importantly how they appear in the media.

We can do the same thing IF we get our act together. If not, nothing will change. Me? I'll give it a shot and do my part. Re-enactment is a large definition, let's use it for our advantage. It's free.

For musketry groups, it's far from the truth to say that all the natives really are natives.
Again, we (yes I am a re-enactor) reproduce situations that happened or were likely to have happened using methods and tools/equipment that existed at the time where the event is set.
Airsoft games can be defined in exactly the same way. There are tons of modern battles, special ops and terrorism operations out there to be studied. We reproduce skirmishes at every game. We use appropriate uniforms and equipment that was/is in use at the time. Modern times, modern equipment.

We ALREADY do this stuff, we just need to change some wording and attitudes to get the ball rolling.

It becomes exactly the same except it does NOT sound threathening like the words military, weapons, guns, would sound.

To understand, think like a soccer mom. What would you rather hear about?

And even when you go to some "re-enactments" some things are not entirely perfect either. Like rubber insoles, or matches to light the fire, or paper to wipe your ass!

The idea of re-enacting something is simply trying to re-create an event or time period as close as one can. The point of which is to see what the people of that event or time went through, felt, thought, and so on. We DO try to do that with Airsoft. Because when we gear up, even if my BDU's don't match my team mates we are still emerging into a battle-type scenario in which we try to see what its like to be in an hostile environment.

Also there are ways we can't have our "re-enactments" for instance my team does not all share the same liking for period dress. I prefer modern day weaponry and gearing, I also am making myself customized gear to my liking and my game play. But that means I'm not under any certain flag, because our team considers ourselves mercenaries. We use what we find works best for us and work for the highest bidder, or who we choose to work for. That way none of us have to conform to the other and we can just use gear that works best for us. And mercs exist the world over, so its not based from any non-factual idea.

And not to mention like Greylocks said, we can also "re-enact" things that didn't actually happen, but things that are probable to have happen or TOO happen. Re-enacting isn't always about doing something thats already BEEN done to as close as we can re-create it. Sometimes there are "re-enactments" that take place to study the infamous "What-if?" scenario. Such scenarios are made to try and answer things like, "What would it have taken for the Red Coats to win here? or loose here?" And so on.


Confining it to the "definition" that wikipedia has is not very realistic, because things change. Such is our image needs to change some what. As a community, as a sport/hobby, as a game; the image just needs to change so that its not so imposing.

Also, if you search for a diffinition on "MilSim" you get nothing, however it does bring a link to Airsoft up on wikipedia. When you read this there is also a section right there on wikipedia that has a "re-enactment" tie to airsoft. And if you read the last part, which I bolded for you. It gives you exactly what we do, we base our games off of real or possibly real events in order to recreate it.

Wikipedia said you can and you can't all at the same time then I guess now didn't it?



EDIT: Here is the wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airsoft#MilSim

You can call it whatever you want. At the end of the day, a stroke of the Liberal pen can make it prohibited entirely, regardless of what you call it.

Put forth an argument that we're "re-enactors" and they'll counter that we don't need firing replica's to do so.

Fight the anti-gun movement and this problem takes care of itself in the process.

Sorry, but I just see this as window dressing.

Enlighten me. How does re-labelling the sport "re-enactment" buy anyone any time?

im pretty sure we're already re enacting

I doubt the vast majority of the airsofting community would be willing to abide by the strict realism rules that are applied to In Country guys. Most just want to get their guns off and have a good time shooting each other.

Re-enactment would necessarily require strict adherence to a certain set of kit and weapon guidelines. Anything less would result in amateurish presentation and asshatry.

There are undoubtedly airsofters who try and follow a particular pattern, and there are those that are incredibly (and exhaustively so) successful. But I don't see a similar commitment to realism or the desire to make it a priority in the general airsofting population.

Ask yourself how long you think Airsoft will be this 'casual' game of '...Oh I dunno what I was going to do this weekend; maybe hit that golf party, might hit the FR game...oh wait - I think i'm going to the cottage. We'll see...'

There's always holding your breath, that works.

Just what do most think Airsoft is today? A sport? A hobby? At one point I was curious to know what the general impression and consensus of the game was to the common member here, and the common participant on the field here in Canada.

Unfortuantely I'm just too biased by nature to make those determinations easily.

Read again; YOU DONT HAVE TO FOLLOW PERFECTION and only one way/style. All you have to do is be able to say you are re-enacting TACTICS that are, and have been, in use in modern battles.
Even of just for fun, that is exactly what you are already doing anyway, right?

You dont have to do anything more than change your vocabulary at this point. That's all.

Just say "I am re-enacting tactics and techniques used by modern peacekeepers and soldiers since World War 2". That is the truth and is far better than saying; "I use machine gun replicas to shoot my friends because it's fun".

Ok?

My muskets, for 18th century re-enactments, are perfectly functional AND do shoot projectiles. So yes, you do need a prop or replica that can shoot something, or simulate the real thing.

I know the rules for airsoft and muskets are too far apart to compare well, but it's still a start.
The guys who use muskets and even full bore cannons started someplace too. They chose to re-enact older historical events. Medievalists go even further. But there is no reason why modern battles and tactics cant be re-enacted.

It follows, logically and defendably, that you need equipment that reflects the time period you wish to re-enact. In our case, the best tools are airsoft guns.

If you can have the right to own a functional cannon, you can make a case for ownership of Replicas for re-enactment purposes. But not right now, it's too early in the game for going that far.

Let's get accepted by starting to play the political side of the game, and then we'll be able to think further down the way about the other stuff.

(Yes, it IS window dressing. But if that's the first thing the soccer moms will see, I can dress my window real nice just for them. It costs me nothing to do it either).

A good website, one of many. Note the time periods they cover under the re-enacting umbrella.

http://www.reenactor.net/

This is far more advanced than we need to be right now, but it's a good read if you think outside the box.

Re-enacting as a legal shield to avoid soccer moms running to the nearest bell tower and ringing the damn thing, is a good idea. However, there's much work to be done beyond claiming that we are re-enactors. Re-enacting is still strongly restricted (well here near Montreal), and might sometimes be to the point of, per say, 2 games a year? Legally, if re-enacting, we can't even go to an interior paintball field, since it's to close to residential areas.

Might as well call legal aids in the U.K. and ask for guidance to clear airsoft.
Airsoft should be following Paintball gaming rules for functionality, but harder to buy, as if it was an actual weapon. Get represented by the law, get your airsoft gun, then have fun.

my 2 cents, flame away...

Big production re-enactments are rare, that's a fact. But they are not illegal.
Who said they had to be big? Or on TV? Or on public grounds at first?

I've seen public re-enactments much smaller than some games we've had.

I think too many of you guys are trying to immediately jump to the big leagues instead of looking at the basics.

Maybe the community is not ready to play the game of political correctness that would help us all. We CANT get represented by the Law is we dont get our act together.

Do like what ASC does; establish rules, follow laws, even enforce those laws. Then start the PR campaign in the future using the same tools and vocabulary that has worked before.

Then, with time, things will change.

Or you can sit back, and do nothing at all except complain we have nowhere to go and a bad image.

Many of you may hate political correctness, but that's the way it works these days. The closer you are to big cities or to Ottawa, the worse it gets.

Want to be taken seriously? It's easy, speak their language. If you dont, there are far more soccer mom types out there than there are of us. Guess who will win in the long run?

Your choice guys, I made mine.

Why are you so incredibly opposed to using the term Modern Military Simulation? What is so wrong about that?

you know
 

It does not really matter what the term is as long as we stop calling what we do

"playing airsoft" or Airsofting..

The activity needs to be divorced from the objects

It is the objects that are the problem... not the activity... but calling both what we do and what we do it with by the same name....

Every time there is a bad report about "airsoft guns"
Airsofters take the wrap...

Why the heck do you think new people get so confused.. is airsoft illegal? do you mean running around in the forest with a bb gun shooting your friends? or do you mean realistic imitation firearms? or do you mean both.

At the end of the day... what we do is live action role playing... tell me how is it different if I "kill" you with a 5.56mm bullet simulated by a .2g 6mm bb fired out of a realistic replica of an assault rifle while dressed up in the costume of a "modern special forces operative" Or I take you out with a small packet of baking soda tossed at you simulating a "magic missile" while dressed up like a wizard?

You may say... well what we do is realistic... but I assure you there are just as many wanna be wizards out there ..as wanna be SF operatives..and they are just as serious and committed to "realism" as you are...

( in case you are wondering... no I am not a Fantasy LARPer but as I do teach mediaeval swordsmanship.... I do upon occasion... bump into some )

I am partial to Modern Military Simulation as a working name for what we do...

Step into an anti-gun anti-violence civilian's shoes and ask yourself that question.

It's all about choosing the right words; military, guns, simulations (of what, they will ask), war-games, weapons... all words that raise flags in the general public.

Change the words, you change the perception immediately.

What comes in your mind when you hear the word re-enactor? Usually something to do with history, education, demonstrations, public events that are interesting and you can take the kids to watch.

That's the word game we have to start playing if we want to do something better in the future. You dont have to.

It's not about ME or what I want. It's about an approach that WORKS if we give it a shot.

I could ask the reverse question; why are you so much against changing a few words in how you describe yourself and what you do?

Grey is right. It is all about perception.

Wooot 1946-2000 Now that is a timeperiod that Airsoft can fall into. Im in
for this Re-Enactment policy!

target shooting (with real rifles) is a sport, the guns they use not only look like real fire arms, my god, they are real fire arms! a lot more dangerous than airsoft guns I think. And theyre not illegal...

Perhaps what we need is sticter purchasing rules for an airsoft gun: PAL or PAL Restricted required to purchase and operate an airsoft gun. Treat our guns like real steel firearms. (with the exception of the fully automatic part! hehe)

Just as a bit of a redirect, consider paintball. (I know, I know)

Paintball, especially speedball, has become a sport soccer moms can get behind. Why? Because:

- You're using markers, not guns.
- You're tagging, not killing.
- You're speedballing, not skirmishing.
- You're playing tournaments, not engagements/campaigns.
- You're wearing jerseys, not camo.
- You're on a three-man team, not a fireteam.
...and so on.

I mean, it's true paintball has changed a lot over the years, but a LOT of this change is ONLY a change in terminology.

Now, I can see NO drawbacks to any change in terminology referring to airsoft. We all get to play the same game, but we just call it something a little different.

"But I don't want to be a LARPer!!"

Boo-fucking-hoo. We're all LARPers. From the moment we put on our camo, use our replica guns, etc, we're all playing a role that is not us, in live action.

Gerkraz, exactly.
And again, it hurts nothing to change a bit of vocabulary.

A car is no less a car if you refer to it as an automobile.

AHA, I see.
So, I am no longer an airsoft gun nut but a living history afficionado with a penchant for low power kinetic energy dispensers:D

You just proved my point.

Paintball has evolved into what it is today as a result of efforts to make it socially acceptable. In it's early days, it was very similar to what we do with airsoft guns today.

And in the public perception, a gun-toting lunactic is no less a lunatic if he refers to himself as something else.

In order to make it socially acceptable, they had to stop wearing combat fatigues, drop realistic looking guns, and start using descriptors that don't imply any association with violence. That concept doesn't work with airsoft, now does it?

At the end of the day, whatever you call it, we're still socially unacceptable as long as we're using scale replicas to stalk human prey and fire at other human beings, while dressed up in evil killing fatigues representing the baby-killers of our choosing.

No matter what you call it, we're armed to the teeth and look pretty scary.

To think that soccer moms everywhere will suddenly embrace the sport by calling it something different is assinine. At the end of the day, its the guns and the gear that are the problem, not the name of the sport. If we used "markers" that didn't look like guns and still fired plastic bb's we wouldnt have a problem with soccer moms regardless of what clothes we wear while doing it.

Re-enactment is more socially acceptable because the images of a 19th century musketteer is far less threatening, and an obvious reenactment of historical significance, than a current day representation of JTF2 or the SAS.

For the record, I don't care what you do either way. The uniforms and equipment we employ lend easily to the concept of "military role-playing", but I think you're putting too much faith in the name being the catalyst for the bad press we receive when it's clearly the realistic-looking "assault weapons" that cause us grief.

Ultimately, if you want to see airsoft protected, you have to join the fight to preserve firearms rights. The two are intimately connected; if firearms are banned outright, airsoft will follow shortly thereafter if not included in the banning legislation.

Join the CSSA, and help protect both.

When I first played Paintball back in the late 80's it was very much like Airsoft today, cammo and in the bush. Not speedball with bright jersey's. And it was pretty well as underground and restricted as Airsoft today. I had to meet up with the "established" community with my parents as I was under 18, they were filled in on what paintball was and once they said okay, I was then allowed to attend and play in a game. Then about 2 years later, speedball started to take over the fields and the game changed. That when I first learned about and got into Airsoft, and back then it was much much more expensive ($1000 for an Uzi, $20 for 500rds). There was all the reports and complaints in the news about shootings and drive by's like we now see with Airsoft. They are pretty much non existant now, Airsoft has taken over. Heck even laser tag was in the news for a while when their guns went more realistic and there was those shootings in the US.

Things change, paintball evolved and became more allowed and now main stream. Airsoft will get there eventually, we just have to continue to do our best to not rock the boat, and let it grow. Give it a few years and Airsoft will do the same, as some thing new will move into the forefront.

Just out of curiousity, how do real steel shooters who aren't into airsoft see the plight of airsoft? There are airsofters who aren't big on real guns, so I assume the opposite also exist. If a real harsh anti-gun bill were to be tabled, would a significant portion of the RS crowd turn their back on airsofters in exchange for negotiating room? "We represent a legit activity, those other guys are accidental shooting by cops waiting to happen"? I got the impression from the fight across the pond that British airsofters' attempt to ally with other pro-gun groups had mixed/lukewarm receptions.

Not saying that RS guys would all do that, just wondering how different groups thinks. Since if you look at it, airsoft and RS don't coexist particularly well. When either side gets into trouble, the other is unavoidably drawn in. Yet airsofting wouldn't be nearly as difficult if real guns were illegal, and RS owners can sleep a little better at night knowing that there aren't kids running around constantly pissing off the anti-gun social hypochodriacs.

I never underestimate the power of language, ever.

I think using different labels for what we do in public discussions could have a positive impact, and re-enactor seems as good as any approach.

LD

I either write nothing or I write tones…. My apologies in advance.

Greylocks: I have seen many people argue 'lets do something, lets stop sitting around' but very few provide a direction, or plan to back that idea up. Congratulations on presenting the smartest thing I have read in terms of an action plan for airsoft. You got me to sit up and think "Hey, that’s genius... why didn’t I think of that?!?"

All: I have been deeply involved in re-enactment for the last 7 years. Roman, early medieval, late medieval, jousting, SCA, living history, etc. etc. etc. I also have a few acquaintances in black powder and later style groups. I have run my own clubs and participated in running a few legal societies, so when I speak of re-enactment, it is something that I am very intimate with. I am not by any means the world authority on re-enactment, and there are others on this forum (Greylocks I know) who have at least as much experience in this as I do if not more. At least I'm familiar enough to pretend to know what I'm talking about here.

In examining the idea proposed by Greylocks, the counter arguments presented here and the possible repercussions of this action I would say that I heartily believe this to be the best thing we could strive for at the moment.

I would hope that we can all agree that what we do APPEARS alarming to the vast majority of people. 95% of what we are and what we do is lost to the general public. What they see are people shooting up schools, drug dealers carrying replicas and crazy violent youths practicing military violence for god only knows what reason.

If I can be so bold as to presume to speak for Greylocks for a moment, I believe that what he hopes to achieve is to envelope airsoft in a way that it can be presented or seen by the public in an understandable form. People will then see the ‘re-enactor’ first, and the ‘military’ second.

Most importantly I think we need to understand how the general public views re-enactment. I have seen people dressed in Nazi staff uniforms (swastika and all), surrounded by 'SS' troopers, all armed to the teeth (a clearly unfavorable presentation) talking to members of the public (soccer moms and all) and being respected as re-enactors. It is amazing how the public’s opinion will change from "look at those crazy cooks" to at worst a boring disinterest when people are accepted as re-enactors. Re-enacting provides it’s own explanation and logical reasoning for undertaking what may be viewed as 'improper behavior'. It is absolutely socially verboten to dress like a 'Nazi' in public. Why would you? Do you hate Jews? Do you want to kill babies? These are the questions people ask in their heads. However, if you are re-enacting, this creates a different dialogue. Suddenly the exact same action comes with an explanation to your motivations for doing so. OH, you are remembering the horrible things in our past. OH, you are teaching our youth so they wont forget. Oh, you are adding depth to the culture and interest…. Whatever they think, 90+% of the time it will be drastically different.

Everything is perception. Everything. Perception, without further explanation, is your reality. People see no reason for others to run around with real looking guns except perhaps if you are re-enacting. Otherwise, if one sees others fighting with real looking weapons (which are bad), then those same people must then be bad.

One of the major arguments against this approach is the resistance to having to change everything about how we play to fit into the small niche of re-enactment. Few people have the patience, money, discipline or frankly the care to ensure all kit, weapons, and actions conform to a set standard. I understand this. However it’s not really a worry at all. There a very few groups in the medieval world who conform to such stringent standards. Every group has different levels. The largest re-enactment society in the world and likely the most recognized is the SCA. They have some of the WORST (and at times best) historically accurate presentations I have ever seen. Have you ever seen a fur clad barbarian 'Knight', fight a Samurai after beating the snot out of another Knight dressed in an industrial blue plastic barrel??? I have. Yet this is accepted by the public (very loosely at times) as re-enactment.

What we do, and the level to which many of us do it, is very easily re-enactment. If you want to stretch it a bit there is no doubt in my mind that every one here could be presented as modern and recent-history re-enactors. So, no worry there, I don’t expect anyone here to hand sew all visible seams, or mix your shield paint from daisies, and no one else will either.

Gerkraz is absolutely right in his example of how paintball has chosen to represent itself. Whether we like it or not, some words are viewed by the public as bad: Guns, Assault rifle, military, Kill, shoot, tactical, sniper etc. These words are used by military sycophants who are planning to shoot up schools or kill policemen. I personally have no problem with the term ‘Modern Military Simulation’ in fact I believe it is an adequate description of what we do. But that is not the point. I play this game. I tell most of the people at work that I play paintball or do modern and medieval re-enactment already, why? Modern Military Simulation makes them think... so you are a gun nut? So you practice what... Killing people?

We as a community are taking good steps to help drive our 'sport' in a mature way. 18+ for sales, 16+ or 18+ for games. etc. We need to be very aware of how the public views us and how we present ourselves.

Why do I play airsoft? I like to try and test all the gear to see how it works. I like to look super snazzy in all my gear. I love to learn and practice all the associated tactics and really get a feel for what skills modern combat requires. I like to do something social with my friends. I like to know the realities of war. In the end of the day I like to have a pizza with my palls and tell tall stories about how sneaky and deadly I was. The phrase re-enactor covers all the above to a T and explains it just so: ‘re-enactor’. The soccer mom rightly thinks we are unhinged violent criminals waiting to prey on the public. If we aren’t, what are we? Airsofters? Millitary smulators? A buch of guys out shooting our friends

To date re-enactors have changed laws around the world in regards to carrying weapons and handling these weapons in public. They are a growing community with world wide acceptance and recognition. They are attractive to governments as they are starting to add more value to tourism and provide increased culture and entertainment. 'Gun totting nuts' have accomplish none of the above (peacefully). Make no mistake. To most of the people out there we are 'Gun totting nuts'. In the long run either we change this or they will.

Good show Greylocks. Don’t give up on this idea. I believe it is a phenomenal chance for our sport and I applaud you on bringing it forward. Don’t abandon this easily.

That was my $.02 of rambling on.

Your mileage may vary.

Mike

And to think that's what we're suggesting will occur is equally asinine.

To think that changing our nomenclature will turn airsoft into a "soccer mom" sport is very myopic.

You're so willing to clump ALL paintball player into the speedball category that you FORGET that there is a community of paintball players who play the SAME game that we play, except with paintballs and markers instead of AEGs; they play the same game that you probably played before getting airsoft. I know that's true of me.

The games these player play is COMPLETELY different from speedball, but they share one thing in common: they don't have to worry about it becoming illegal and not being able to buy markers/paintballs.

The ONLY way for airsoft to get mainstream acceptance is, unfortunately, to bring it into the public eye in a POSITIVE way, using nomenclature that the public will be comfortable with.

I know one problem that we would have is the time era that we are re inacting.
Its one thing to grab a sword and follow a plot, but when using modern equipment, there may be some who will think we are hiding our real goal, and that is to be Terrorists. Or some crazy militia.
Sounds stupid, but the truth is that people will think that, and it only takes one voice to turn this sour.
That said, im torn, we need to do something for this sport.

My only concern with the reenactment angle is that 99% of the games we play, even if they have a historically-themed roleplay element, are about as much reenactment as speedball is. Face it, we may be "taking over the beaches of Normandy" but honestly, is that what people are really there for? No. I wouldn't want us to possibly be seen as taking extreme liberties with the definition of reenactment simply to fit a perceived ulterior motive.

The Manitoba Airsoft Association's standpoint is that this is a SPORT. The phrase we've used for years which has always worked is "like paintball." Like it or not the two sports are identical in practice - using a gun to shoot projectiles at other players in order to tag them out. One has received a lot more commercial success because neon jerseys and "markers" are more palatable to soccermoms. As mentioned above they were more milsim when they first got started and only enjoyed this commercial success after dropping that aspect for a while. Milsim is finally working its way back into paintball now.

The reenactment idea certainly has merit although I just don't think it's fair to misrepresent what we do. Reenactment is more niche than airsoft is and I question how much value we could put into that as a parallel. It would be awful hard to swallow that thousands of teens and young adults are suddenly interested in preserving the history of famous battles and need four figures worth of camouflage, guns, and accessories to do it.

The MAA will continue pushing this as a sporting event, and hopefully our registration as a sporting organization will help with that. I know some people have asked for more information on what we've done and I'd love to provide that, but I want to make sure it's presented in a clear and finished manner. We are still working on establishing certain things and making a lot of it up as we go along but hopefully within the next few weeks we'll have more nailed down that we can present to the community.

Perhaps we need more positive public enlightenment. Get some news coverage to help show the public that its a Sport, with Rules, not just kids running around shooting at each other training to be terrorists.

YouTube - airsoft on closeup

for example.

I also think most reenactment groups would take umbrage with us calling ourselves reenactors. A true reenactment is about demonstrating a historical event or period; there is no winning or losing, there's no points, there's no respawn. It's not a game. Airsoft is.

When we hold a "historical" op here in Manitoba, the actual event depicted and its outcome are tertiary in nature. The primary focus is on providing a safe and fun environment for people to enjoy. It's also not a public event which is another hole in the reenactment argument because we're firing live projectiles, and there isn't exactly a spectator's area where people can enjoy a smokie and a beer from the bleachers. If we reenact anything it is solely to further our own personal enjoyment of the event by providing an interesting role playing aspect, no more.

Your first point .. is not true... many re-enactment societies have combats of various types , some quite vigorous.. and much more dangerous than what we do , In lots of them there are points, and respawns... and to a degree is is a game.. and a sport... and a re-enactment... all in one..

I think it is important to not get tied up in Semantics... the point is to divorce the activity from the objects... calling what we do "airsoft" really does not provide any indication of what we do...

Picture this...

So what you got there? Um an airsoft gun...
Yeah .. what do you do with that? I airsoft with it....
Huh? you know... shoot people... you know for fun...besides the guns are cool...
Right...(backs away slowly not making eye contact)


VS

What you got there? Its a simulated firearm
Yeah What do you do with that? I participate in Modern Battle Simulations.
Why would you do that? Well mostly for fun and exercise, and I have met really great people who share my interests...
Really... can you tell me more? Sure come on over and meet my friends...


bingo... now its not about the guns anymore... it is about exercise, community, shared experiences...entertainment

But... I do agree that this will not resolve the issue with continued access to airsoft guns... all this does is take the focus off of the guns a bit..

We still need to be active in preserving our rights to access and ownership.. an issue that can not be divorced from the wider issue of gun legislation.. as it is the same body of law that will affect us.

I'll admit I'm not wholly familiar with reenactors aside from the fact I rarely see any. Thanks for the correction Brian.

However I still fail to see how calling us reenactors is going to be any better than calling ourselves a sport. The scenario you mentioned above works in either situation although once you establish people are playing an actual game rather than weakly attempting a historical simulation that is ostensibly a game in disguise, I think the response will be far more open. Especially if we ride the coattails of paintball's commercial success and carefully associate with it.

Personally I have nothing against paintball or speedball. It's not my cup of tea but I no longer subscribe to the mindset that one sport is any better than the other. We're both accomplishing the same objective only using different rules and equipment. By establishing similarities and emphasizing them, we show that our sport has a lot in common with something that people already relate to and understand is socially acceptable. That is why we registered the MAA as a sporting association.

I also dislike the verbiage of "simulated firearm" for several reasons which is another argument on its own. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the term airsoft.

Don't worry buddy - membership fees are always ca$h green, I don't think they will be too put off by what you do. Just hope that your interests are included when you sign up, cause perspectives change just like underpants.

Besides, if Airsoft get's banned, who are the real steeler's going to make fun of? It would be like a giant, celestial black hole of ridicule exploding into itself. Devistating.

Actually, airsoft is pretty frequently made fun of in the firearms community but that doesn't really matter. As far as I know, protecting private ownership of replicas isn't something the CSSA is fighting for, but it's the same mentality that wants to see them banned and the same government that would do it if they're put back in power.

If by supporting firearms rights you provide support for airsoft by extension, who cares what they think of it?

Nothing should ever be banned because it's misused by a select few. It's the same principle at work.

I agree that re-enactor may not really encompass what we do... but neither does "Sport"
I think that many casual observers find that the fact that we have made hunting people a sport the most objectionable part of the activity.
This is exactly why paintball became long range tag. It was the proactive public manipulation of "optics" that allowed paintball to emerge from the shadows.

Many have already said that there is no way to wrap this thing up and make it look wholesome... and to that I agree, The "sportification" of violence is to the majority of people.. abhorrent.. and the people who do it.. intrinsically "different" than "normal people"

This is the catch... how do we manipulate the "optics" so that what we do has a context other than " a sport that involves hunting people with realistic imitations of lethal weapons" And keep the "game" intact?

I don't know the answer... maybe there is no answer... but I do know that continuing to "airsoft" with Airsoft guns is not the answer.

Context that can be rationalized by the uninvolved casual observer is what we need to acheive..
A tough task considering the barriers

I own real guns, many real guns. I'm a re-enactor (from the medieval ages on up, including late 18th century).

The only differences I see between what we do here and what re-enactment is about is the equipment and time period we cover.

So we re-enact modern tactics and situations? Okay, that still falls under the definition.

What would other re-enactors think? From experience, I bet they'd say "Cool, can we try it too?"

Too many of you seem to think the term re-enactor would limit or restrict what we do, and I really dont see where that perception comes from.

I know we re-enact tactics in use all over the world, and we use equipment from all over the world because that's how wars and conflicts happen today. We have the entire latter part of the 20th century to pick information from. Others choose to go with earlyer time periods.

Either is just fine. Why, for example, cant we re-enact what happened in Munich if we want to do a hostage rescue scenario?

The arguments on acceptability are again premature. It's too early to even think about that. All we can do now is consider the possibilities and change a few terms.

Read what Lynxicanus wrote; he nailed it perfectly.

Indeed. However I don't know if "hunting" people for sport is something that necessarily needs to come up; images like that can be mitigated through careful manipulation and PR.

They call the stupidest things sports these days. In the States they have professional video gaming leagues because apparently mouse clicking and button mashing now qualifies as sport. If paintball does I see no reason why we cannot either. The long-range tag characterization can be applied to our case also, with a military twist. Lately with the war on terror there has been a resurgence of interest in things military which we could probably capitalize on, regardless of people's feelings on the conflicts. It at least offers a plausible explanation for the interest airsoft has received lately.

I guess that's what it comes down to when we have to decide what we are as an entity.

The first choice is go the route of paintball, making it socially acceptable with changing terms, outlook, manner, image, etc., while keeping the actual FUNCTION of the sport intact. I would like to add, however, that the paintball community themselves had an INFLUENCE over the manufacturing and distribution of the products that supported their sport. We dont, we're not even recognized in the international forum.

The second choice is to join forces/support a higher cause, such as the CSSA and others, in hopes that a broad reaching decision can be made that would put us again back into a darker grey area than at present, since in itself by the very definition is not yet clearly defined. (Yes the CFC has defined much of it in their policies and regulatory mandate, but they have limitations that subject it still to a "case by case basis").

But here's the thing - when do we decide what we are? What constitutes a voter? I dont expect anyone to answer that easily.

I think Greylock's suggestions are warranted, but lets face it - we lack the framework on which to build these ideas when it comes to times like these. We don't even really know where we stand now, today and tomorrow. And it's not for a lack of trying either.

Makes you wonder if there is any merit to getting Airsoft recognized as an international sport, since so many nations practice the game. Go Team Canada!

If you said there was an international cup involved, our Canadian public would be critisizing the government about not having the proper training facilities.

Sorry , I got to go laugh at that imagery...

window dressing
 

At the end of the day it is not what we do that is in danger of becoming set outside our grasp.. Push comes to shove we can use paintball guns to play the game.

it is the tools we use that are at risk.

But even there... it is really access to the tools that is in direct peril today.

The Brits got a writen in defense to their law to allow them continued access to airsoft guns.. we don't have that option

All the semantics in the world won't help us if the tap runs dry and retailers are squeezed out using currently existing legislation and policy. All that needs to happen is for the CBSA and the police to enforce existing laws... and we won't have any retailers in Canada.

My God, hell just froze over, I'm actually agreeing with Greylocks ;)

Precisely, re-enacting is the only route you can go because it does accurately describe what we do, even though the community doesn't currently see it that way, others outside looking in would and do if framed properly.

If you've ever been to a 're-enactment' proper, you will note it contains a lot of what goes on at an airsoft game, except there is usually a more period focus and the 'gaming' skirmishing aspect of it isn't as pronounced because they basically can't do what we do with BBs. If they battle its usually a scripted mock battle.

This is the only aspect of trying to treat airsoft as a re-enactment is the gaming component, but I don't think its a huge barrier - in fact its a fun variation to the re-enacting concept. Who knows, maybe one day you'll see a civil war re-enactment with airsoft driven rifles firing 50cal plastic balls (not **joke**).

Morbius also makes a good point regarding fighting the *principle* of taking people's guns away, be it airsoft or real steel. There is an underlying principle that you either support or don't support and most airsofters I think would support property rights and coopting the criminal and not his tool as the culprit of a crime. Legislating hammers isn't going to stop hammer attacks, people will just switch to screwdrivers.

Well then, we just re-enact anti-terrorism operations. Everyone's anti-terror these days.

See what I mean? It's all how you say it.

Thanks Brian, this is precicely my point. Without addressing the root cause of the risk, we gain nothing by re-packaging the game under a more socially-acceptable label. The concept of portraying airsoft as "military role-playing" is fine, but until we've legitimized the tools of the trade we can still loose them, new name or not.

Would it help the image of the sport itself? Perhaps, but perhaps not. In the end, paintball moved away from realistic guns (yes there are exceptions) simply because it was the largest obtacle to social acceptability.

Go nuts, try it out, and if it works then good on you all. I don't see it affecting me one way or the other, because I'm already as close to "military role-playing" as you canget. One way or the other, I'll keep playing the sport whatever it's called, until they ban the tools alltogether or legitimize them once and for all and tackle real problems like crime and criminals.

We lack the framework now, but that can change fast. What we can do now, as individuals, is to rethink how we present ourselves and our game to the public.

That requires no framework at all, just a bit of care.

Changing terms and definitions does not change our game at all, it just makes it easyer to understand.

I re-enact modern battles, tactics, potential scenarios and rescue operations. So do you, and for a lot longer than I've been doing it. You know how a few words to someone who does not know the game can appear.

I can start changing what I say, no skin off my back, and the rest will happen with time (or not). But I will have made an effort towards something that makes sense in this day and age.

That's the huge difference between what we SHOULD do and what we CAN do. We can do this, if we try. Official paperwork and group decisions will come later. Right now it's the individuals (us) that count.

Re-enactors have been at the forefront of making many things acceptable, and some are downright surprising. I'll use the 17th-18th century groups for example.
Not that long ago, those events were un-heard of; now look at what was done for Quebec's 400th year?
Who would have imagined you would be able to buy real, functional, muskets in obscene calibers? Or even better, cannons, that are 100% functional?
(Yes, the re-enactors DO have the explosives and ammo for them too, they just dont use the ammo except at ranges)

It all happened because that type of equipment was required to do something that had a basis in education; they educate themselves about military history and battle tactics by doing them 'live'. So bit by bit, it started small, went big, went huge, and changed the laws/attitudes.

In airsoft, we do the same, but for a far newer time period. Same types of battles/games/sims, correct uniforms (or as close as safety or cash permits), and so on. We happen to have a valid need for the right tools too, and that's where airsoft comes in.

It wont change the laws for that instantly, but it will plant a seed.

That's all I want right now; start small, individually, and plant that seed.

Scarecrow; there have been many re-enactments done with no, or few, scripts. I've been in several where we were told to think outside the box, and those were a TON of fun for us and the spectators.

Are you suggesting that the resurgence of black-powder guns and black-powder shooting is a result of re-enactors creating a demand for the guns?

I'm not challenging that, but I'm legitimately curious if that's what prompted the comeback.

The resurgence started in the movies, and at fur-trading rendez-vous events. Then several other groups started to re-enact that period of history. Part of what happened was a demand for muskets of various makes, originals were rare...

As it was impossible to do those events without the right equipment, it started to put some pressure. Even the media thought it was silly to try and do this with wood sticks or yelling 'bang'.

As it was colorful, historical and interesting to watch, the attitudes changed. Eventually, as the laws were being reconsidered, it was noticed that those muskets were used by re-enactors more than anyone else.
Since the use was harmless, they became Perceived as harmless and the laws for them were relaxed a lot.

Go to any large re-enactment and you'll see exactly all those soccer moms who would burn us at the stake taking their children to watch.

So yes, re-enactors and what they do were a part of the reasons for the change. I'm not joking about the cannons either.

This did not happen overnight, it took over 40 years. But it did work.

Since airsoft guns are not firearms, this idea could lead to a change in the laws eventually IF it's spun right.

Nice try with the logic, but its seriously flawed. For example, blank firing WW2 era weapons are needed for WW2 reenactment. WW2 reenactment also has a basis in education. So, by your logic, they should be legal. But they're not. They're prohibited. Only film production companies can get their hands on them, and even that has restrictions and limitations.

And cannons arent legal just because they're needed for reenactments.

Just because we call ourselves reenactors and say we need airsoft for our 'reenactments' doesnt mean the laws will eventually change for our favor. In fact, I bet it would have zero effect on the laws just like reenacting has had zero effect on the laws pretaining to blank firing weapons.

Plus, where's the 'basis in education' in airsoft games? Teach people about modern military tactics? How often have you seen REAL modern military tactics used in your average skrimish?

We use real tactics during most of ours. Peel-back, ambush set up, fire and manouvre techniques....sure you can't use them if you are playing a speed ball type game, but i think the majority of players want and do use real tactics as much as they can, i mean for me thats one reason why i play airsoft, so i don't have to use speedball type techniques (as many bps as you can get in the air etc)...but thats just me.

redhawk_six

Blank firing weapons are in a different class of law, and we were talking about a very specific group, not all. WW1, 2, and up are still fighting to get reasonable rules established. It's currently easyer for them to use a real Lee Enfield with a blank adaptor than getting a purely blank firing gun.

There is still lots of work to be done to change other things, but it worked for muskets.

The cannons I refer to are from the same era as the muskets, not modern cartridge guns; but they are operational. I've seen privately owned cannon up to 6-pounders. I can buy both with little effort, my PAL has nothing to do with it.

I did say, clearly, that nothing would happen right away. BUT... if we give it time, things can change as the past has proven.

Education; how often do I see real tactics in use at games? Hmmmm, you never do ambushes in your games? How about coordinated assaults? Sniping? Scouting? Convoying? Point defense? Planning? No?

If you dont do that already, what do you do? And where do you think those tactics came from?

Just as a side point, there are many things which constitute an re-enactment event. I have seen all of the following both in private and at major public displays:

Scripted battles based on historical events with determined results.
examples
- battle of Hastings held in England. approximately 2000 participants, each person can act, fight and die independently, but large scripted events such as the withdrawal of the Norman line, or the rush of the cavalry and set up and orchestrated.
- Scripted fighting at tournaments with planed moves and 'worked' results.

Large scale battles based on historical events without determined results.
Admittedly rare at 'Large Scale' gathering they happen non the less.
examples
- some of the Viking and Norse groups as well as some of the late medieval groups (to mention but a few)run a 'lets see who wins this time' re-enactment where perhaps Richard lives through the battle of Bosworth and the Tudor dynasty is defeated. (usually more entertaining for a re-enactor to participate)

Small pitched battles or individual fights not based on any event, but simply within a certain 'time frame or region' (time frame or region can be as specific as England in 1410 - 1420 or as broad as Earth 1000 - 1700).
This is the most common re-enactment I have seen
Examples:
- Tournament fighting with rosters or round robin challenges
- Most all serious jousting groups are non-determined outcome
- Most medieval 'group' combat is an undetermined battle between 2 or more groups to 'hold the bridge', 'take the hill', 'kill the king' etc. Sometimes even with re-spawn points.
- Last man standing or bear pit toss ups.
- Duals to 'satisfaction' - my favorite.
- Heck, I've even played ‘capture the flag’ in full 1150s harness. (try running away from 5 guys while wearing 45 pounds of armour!)
As I said, this is the most common re-enactment I have seen. Non scripted combat from whichever period the group presents, sometimes with objectives, sometimes to simply showcase or practice the fighting styles of the time.

That being said, I think we have all seen almost all of these in airsoft. As one can see, we do not have to alter our game at all. We are already re-enacting modern combat. Some of us are just doing a better job than others. ;)

The whole point of this is not that it will change our laws today, it will not result in the legalization of airsoft tomorrow or change public opinion instantly. It does however provide a more acceptable public face for our sport (something we are endlessly seeking). It also groups us in with organizations who are known to the government and society at large. The bonus is that they are known as large, growing, popular (and harmless) groups who are willing to push and shove and lobby and carry on to be able to have laws that allow them to play their games.

This is a stepping stone to begin to achieve the recognition and popular support that will eventually (if necessary) allow us to either defend or initiate changes in legislation for the benefit of our hobby.

True. Without all the interest in history and re-enacting/living history, cannons probably wouldn't be easy to find, not because of legalities, but because of demand.

WWI and II webbing is being reproduced at high rates, because of the recent resourgement in the interest in history. I'm sure you couldn't find much P-08 webbing 20 years ago, but now you can buy an entire reproduced set from several dealers for under $400.
I see where this is coming from...but am not sure if it would have much effect on the minds of the people who want to eradicate all shooting related activities.

Why don't we just give it a shot, and see where this goes, instead of picking the idea apart with tweezers and a micoscope.

Put plans and ideas into play and make adjustments as we go along. As long as we sit here talking about it, nothing is getting done.

We'll need a few representatives from each province, I'm thinking around 5 per. They will represent the various teams and independant players of their province, and will hammer out the details. I would suggest a private forum for discussion that ONLY these reps have access to.

Just my 2 cents

No need to even go as far as regional reps. Just change how we do things and individuals.
That requires no special effort or coordination.

The rest will take time, and patience.

I see where you are coming from.

However with all due respect.

That will never happen, just look at the bickering and dissection of an idea, in this thread. The idea will die off, and this thread will get burried, unless we stop talking and take action.

If you want to be organised, you need a head to follow. This is why corporations have board rooms for heads to discuss the direction of the company and the people who are involved in said company.

You want change, then you need a plan of action, and you will never come up with a difinitive plan with 1500+ people giving what they think. Come up with a plan, and put it into play, everything from there on in will fall into place.

Remember most people are followers, and like to talk the talk, but will never walk the walk. True leaders are far and few between, but they have the ability to talk the talk AND walk the walk, the rest WILL follow these leaders, it's human nature.

If it does not work, it will be simply because people are not willing to do something simple that costs nothing.

The arguments against it are all about restrictions and how long it may take.

There are no restrictions in changing words, but it will take time. We tell under-18 kids to wait, why cant we be patient?

Folks dont want to do it? Ok, dont do it. But dont complain nobody tries.

I'm going to do it because I've seen it work for other groups and they went from obscurity to having events in front of the Prime Minister.

Up to you guys.

Don't get me wrong. I AM willing to try whatever it takes.

I'm not trying, I'm doing it from now on. It's that easy.

For the rest who are willing, do it too. Start now. We'll see where it leads.