Proper way to PROVE gun is safe?
 

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, so apologies in advance.

I just finished and passed my CFSC and CRFSC course. We were taught the following to PROVE that the gun was safe:

1. remove magazine(s)
2. engage safety and keep it on if possible
3. observe feeding path/chamber
4. Observe barrel (from the breach)

And my personal favourite:
https://49.media.tumblr.com/01f0782c...94sdo1_400.gif
5. Observe bore from the MUZZLE (when observing through the breach is not possible) with a bore light.

Is this the right procedure? I was taught to never EVER look down the barrel of a firearm throughout airsoft from the muzzle and then they tell us to do this with real steel?

Apparently these are the CIVILIAN procedures, and completely different from MILITARY procedures.

What are your thoughts and opinions of this way to PROVE it is safe? Does it make sense, or is this just the routine "true" but "bad" way to verify the barrel is clear that is later taught again in a different way at gun clubs and such?

Point in safe direction.
Remove source of ammunition.
Observe the feed path.
Verify the feed path.
Examine the bore.

EDIT:

I cringe every time I see someone do this on the range.

In my experience, each previous point overides the next, you must always point in a safe direction. Therefore, examining the bore from the muzzle (though taught and required to say to pass your test) is the most retarded thing about sitting the PAL.

You can observe an sight obstructed bore with a bore light at the muzzle end, or you can put the light AT THE MUZZLE end and observe from the breach. This is the way it's done on the range. Point at a bright spot down range and observe the feed path. It can be done in only a few seconds.

While not common practice, military does prove safe in the same manor (looking down the barrel form the muzzle end) in ceremony.
I know there is a picture of the MND staring down the barrel of a C7 floating out there somewhere, can't find it though.

While I don't enjoy doing it, it is 100% necessary for some firearms where you can not properly observe the entire barrel from the rear. You are not just looking to see if there is a round in the chamber, you are looking for any and all obstructions.

You have already proven the chamber and feed path clear so its safe to look down the barrel. Adding in a bore light is what I like to do though, it blocks the chamber and feed path thus preventing anything somehow getting in there, and it illuminates the bore so you can properly prove that it is safe as well.

http://www.brownells.co.uk/WebRoot/M...001213_2_m.jpg
https://gunandsurplus.com/images/PIC...bore_light.JPG

My instructors were fine with us using a snake or cleaning rod w/ patch or brush to prove the bore safe as well. <-- This is my preferred method.

Barrel obstructions are no joke and you should check for them.

THIS!

That's what I said in class, but the instructor insisted this is the proper way to observe it. It feels so weird looking down the bore.

I'm stiff iffy about looking down the barrel. I don't have a real steal firearm, and have never dealt with one outside the course with live ammunition, but would there ever be an instance where there is an obstruction that is live ammunition that can not be seen from the breach/action?

This was covered in our course for single-action revolvers where the barrel could not be observed so we used the cleaning rod too.

Sure. Muzzle loaders. You can't really observe the bore from the rear, and you have to basically stick your face in front of potentially live powder to check the bore for obstruction. I have 0 experience with them though.

After I open the bolt. breech, what have you and inspect the chamber from loading end to insure It's clear I put my thumb in the breech and use my nail to reflect light down the bore to inspect it from the muzzle end.

Along with muzzle loaders like shelled said, there are a lot of semis out there that don't allow you to remove the bolt without disassembling the rifle completely (and before disassembling a firearm you need to prove it safe :P ), so you cant really see past the chamber. I used to have a model 64 where this was the case. Dropping a cleaning rod down or running the snake through was good enough for me though, but this is a case where you might need to get some light into the chamber and look down the muzzle.

Anything that takes a cartage will not have any live element that would not be observable from the rear of the chamber/feed path unless something crazy has gone wrong. If you can see a clear chamber and remove everything from the feed path you are good to go.
Like I said though, get a bore light to block off the chamber so nothing can get in there.

Chances are you will have a firearm that you can easily remove the bolt and observe the bore from the rear though.

I only took the course since it is a requirement for applying to CBSA. I assumed it was because they don't want idiots to misidentify airsoft guns for real ones and seize everything. That, and I'm not sure if they require a PAL or RPAL to transport the firearms. Not too sure about this aspect of the job.

The purpose of looking down the bore is to determine that there is no debris or junk AFTER it has been determined to be unloaded. It makes sense as a "belt and suspenders" approach at the beginning of your shooting day to check that no crap during transportation made its way in there.
Unfortunately, that point is not emphasised and in that entire waste of a weekend they rarely show what the explosive consequences of barrel obstructions can be.

I cant think of an instance where "live" ammunition cant be observed while the barrel is pointed downrange, but checking for squibs and such its the only way other than a cleaning rod

Ya'll laugh, but looking down the barrel is in fact IN the damn PAL course as part of how you prove a weapon safe.

It is always the last part of the process; you would never start with looking down the barrel. Because you have cleared the magazine from the firearm, and checked the chamber for any live munition at this point examining the barrel should be safe. The reality is at that point with an open action and cleared chamber the only possible way you get injured by looking down the barrel is two stage munitions. Seeing as HE/Incendiary are prohibited you're pretty much 100% safe.

It is also an important part of proving the firearm SAFE to ensure that there is no debris or blockage in the barrel. the gun is not SAFE to load and fire if this is not ensured. Proving safe is not only for cleaning and storage but future use as well.

Looking down the barrel proves the gun is safe, clear and gives us the Darwin Award winner. It also serves as chlorine for the gene pool.

Win-win all around.

It's required because you'll be seizing real firearms (at times loaded) at the border and you'll have to make them safe and secure them on the spot.

An alternate to most of the tools mentioned above, put your damn thumb in the action area, your thumb will reflect enough light off the nail to clearly see, as well as block the action from chambering or firing a round if one somehow magically appears.

That said, while I don't personally like doing it, there's nothing really wrong with it as you've already removed the magazine and ensured the chamber is clear. Looking down the muzzle is simply to ensure you have no obstruction, such as dirt, snow, cleaning tool parts or a bullet (From a squib load or whatever other reason)

To touch on Cobra JR's first comment about certain types of firearms, have fun barrel checking a Lever Action or most .22 without doing this. It's easy on bolt actions, not so much on some other guns, unless you want to strip them down a bit.


You NEVER put your face, or as much of your body as is avoidable, over the muzzle of a muzzle loader if it's state is even remotley in question.

As I am a black powder shooter:
Flintlock - Remove flint, ensure fizzle pan is clear, use your loading rod to check. Any BP shooter who's even semi smart will mark their loading rod for this reason. Usually two lines, one to indicate empty, the other to indicate the proper load level. Some will make a third to indicate ball, but a load level would indicate this based on the powder charge.
Percussion - Same as above.
Revolvers - You're checking the cylinders and nipples. No cap on the nipple means the gun isn't legally loaded and has no ignition source, now, inspect the cylinders (From the front, as that's how you load the charge and shot), once this is done, try look down the barrel in you can angle a light source, though it's unlikely. I usually just shove a cleaning brush down until I can see it in the cylinder gap

Other muzzle loaders are the same as flint, with different mechanisms. Simply remove whatever ignites them. Majority of these are rather rare, I can count the number of Wheel Lock and Matchlock firearms I've seen, outside of display and museum pieces, on two fingers.

My training/experience:
9 years CF reserve
Shooting with family since about 6 years old
8 years of owning my own guns and being OCD about their safe handling.

NEVER-EVER look down the barrel, was what I was taught as well, unless of course the barrel is removed. Use a light.

I was told that for pistols, you remove mag, rack rack rack, look down barrel from chamber side, put thumb in chamber, look down barrel from the muzzle. No idea about rifles though.

Ah I see. That makes much more sense, although CBSA designates military experience with firearms not suitable for this purpose. What the military does compared to the CFSC/CRFSC is beyond my knowledge.

PAL course is the CFSC and/or CRFSC I assume? I don't see anything out there about the PAL course as a 3rd and separate course.

I took both of them, and yes, the instructor did in fact show the consequences of debris/blockage in the barrel. Not the looney-toons exaggerated mushrooming of the bore, but something very similar.

I guess I didn't get the message that looking down the bore is ONLY to look for obstructions that were NOT live-ammunition. I had assumed that there was still a possibility of ammunition going down the barrel past the breach where the barrel holds the cartridge in place, so I felt iffy about looking down the bore even after the chamber is cleared.

Well, I have no idea who taught you, but you were taught contrary to both the CFSC and reality of things.

How to best use it to kill a mother fucker......... that's essentially what we get taught. It's not a negotiation tool, to look cool, to shoot pop cans or any other purpose. We have it so we can use it to kill people if the need arises/order comes. To further this end, we're taught to maintain it.

That's why the military is usually not applicable in terms of firearms training. We're not really taught to identify multiple types of firearms in order to determine their "Classification" or anything along the lines of what CBSA might do.

As a Supply Tech or Weapons Tech, out interaction with weapons may come a bit closer to what they'd be after, but the main focus on weapons in the CF is to train you do use them for what they're intended for.

The one thing I learned that supports this is that when crossing a fence or stream of water, it is mandatory to cross it while firearms are unloaded and PROVE'd safe. Probably not applicable for military positions where I'd rather be killed by my own team from their carelessness/accidental discharge than the enemy when I could have defended myself with a weapon that SHOULD be loaded.

We had a few military guys there question the other techniques, like pulling the trigger to see if there is a round left in the chamber after it has been emptied or something. Things that you would do at a military range but not a civilian one.

We get taught to keep fingers off triggers and shit much more than civilians do, I've never crossed a stream or over a fence and unloaded my weapon just because of that. We don't generally walk around with rounds chambered, but we don't remove mags just to do shit, you might pass the rifle to your buddy to climb a fence, but you're just as likely to just keep it slung or something.

You'd never pull a trigger to see if it's loaded.
How I was taught to check was to yank the mag, cock it with the ejection port facing the floor, watch for a round to come out, turn it over, cock it again, this time holding the bolt back, and observe the chamber. If it's empty, let the charging handle go, fire off the action and close the ejection port cover. This can literally be done in under an actual second or two

What you have just described is more or less how people outside of government safety courses actually do things. Never in my life have I seen anyone do the "PROVE dance" after that course

more like because you will wear a duty pistol on your hip...

the RPAL course showed a old movie doing this.. then said: don't do this.. it's freaking stupid. To prove empty, use the cleaning rod.

And that folks, is a good instructor!

According to their website, CBSA officers don't carry firearms, but I suppose that is aggregate information that is relative to the position and duties assigned.

Would that mean that a PAL/RPAL is required for the position? Or is it like police services that give you the firearm with alternative documentation?

it is ongoing (arming the agents)

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/agency-ag.../menu-eng.html

also yes, they require you to have passed the CRFSC

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/job-emplo...auche-eng.html

In any job where you potentially will come in contact with a firearm, you're required to have the appropriate licensing and training. Even in the movies...technicians have to have a restricted PAL in order to handle the replica firearms and blank ammunition. If there's a chance you'll encounter a weapon, you have to be certified. You have to be able to know and understand whether or not somebody has a legit ATT, or that the firearm is properly acquired and stored.

As for practical handling and application, when out hunting, I've never seen any hunter unload and prove SAFE to cross a stream or climb over a fence. If hunting 'properly' you're usually out with a buddy anyways, so yeah...hand him the rifle, clear the obstacle then do likewise. If working in areas where predators are a problem (not shopping malls, the wilderness), you have to be loaded pretty much all the time. If a bear decides to run you down you don't have time to fumble for a mag. There will be no calling hit and heading for the respawn...umm, there might not even be a respawn...

In the case of a rifle or semi auto with a magazine, running around with one in the hole is not a completely sane idea, and chances are you can rack one fast enough to still get out of a jam without having to run around 'live'. If you've got a single shot, bolt action, bring a back up..hehehe...

I remember when I did the course, the instructors knew a couple of us were military and told us to go along with what's being taught for now. Oh man, we were cringing with some of the things being taught. But one thing the instructors did bring up about us is our habit of keeping the finger off the trigger at all times until needed. He was saying to the civilians that if there's one thing you learn from the military about firearms safety that can apply here, is this.

We were taught that looking down the barrel was an option in our course. Use a borelight, stare blankly into muzzle.
2 things; if you have to do this (muzzle loader, looking for debris, lodged bullet, whatevs)
1) use a bore light and point the barrel to the ground. See the light? No problem. Dont see the light? Obstruction.
2) muzzle loader; point flashlight into barrel, USE A GOD DAMN MIRROR to see down the bore.

At Silvercore Firearms. I was taught to use a bore rod when examining the bore. Sometimes if you PROVE Safe in a lit room you can see light shining into the barrel.

Like button! Lol

Only time I will look down the barrel of a firearm or anything that shoots a projectile is when entire bolt assembly/firing mechanism is out, power source is disconnected in case of airsoft/bb guns and I know for a fact that there was nothing discharged from the said device in the last 10 minutes or so. Call me paranoid but I've seen things and read things done with both airsoft and real firearms.

only time i'll ever look down a barrel of an airsoft gun is when the barrel is detached from it. (for cleaning purposes)

or if I jam my finger between the bolt and the hop up unit with the magazine out

I have to look down the barrel to check nozzle alignment, but I always wear safety glasses when I do it. more so for any particulate or grease that may come out should it shoot.
But realistically, it's not capable of shooting when I do it, so it's purely a paranoid safety precaution.

Safety eyewear is fine for airsoft guns. To get a good look at an airsoft barrel though, you really need to remove it anyways. On many platforms the barrel assembly slides out easily.

Holy smokes, getting the mock silencer back on a LCT Val when you've got the battery plugged in pretty well screams "stare down the muzzle".

https://youtu.be/tnftq3pePtA

Something like this is why I think it's ok to look down the bore. This excludes hang fires of course...

So do we have a consensus here? Should we follow the cfsc teachings or consider safer alternatives?

Interesting thing: for ceremonial rifle inspections, they do seem to be looking down the bore. Of course, all the rifles are cleared and there's no live ammo or mags/clips in (as far as I can tell...) but I guess that just means that's the way they've done it for decades?
Example of it at around 0:45 of this vid of the Arlington Tomb of the Unknown Soldier Changing of the Guard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPgFwrxf9N4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnftq3pePtA

As long as you follow all the steps, looking down the barrel is 100% safe.

You need to remember the rules of firearm handling:
1) Never point a loaded weapon in an unsafe direction.
2) All weapons are loaded until YOU personally verify it is safe.
3) Verifying the barrel is the last step of making it safe. You may use a cleaning rod, if you have one. Failing that, eyeballs will do the job, provided you have -done- -every- -step-.

1. Take out magazine.
2. Visually inspect the magazine.
3. Put magazine in pouch/pocket/dump pouch/your pants etc.
4. Cant your weapon to the side your ejection port (usually right side) is on.
5. Cock the weapon two to three times to clear out any bb's.
5b. On the last cock, hold whatever it is you used to cock it completely far back.
6. While holding the cocking device ie; charging handle, cant the weapon over to the other side so you can look into the chamber and see if there are any other bb's left behind.
7. Release the charging handle and let it slide forward on its own.
8. Choose a safe place to point your weapon, then fire it to clear out any bb that may somehow have passed your expert inspection.
9. Close the dust cover of your weapon.
10. Wind your scope down to zero.
11. Place weapon down with dust cover side of receiver facing up (to mitigate dirt from getting in).
12 (optional). Perform a functions test on your weapon afterwards.
13. Bonus points to anyone who thinks this procedure sounds familiar.

Just my 2 c's: remember airsoft guns are very different from real guns.
To clear airsoft AEG's I use the following steps: remove magazine, point in a safe direction and fire three rounds (this makes sure there are no BBs in the hop area), remove battery and secure in case.
For GBBs: remove mag, rack action three times with the barrel pointing up (BBs stuck in hop will fall out), point in safe direction and fire once to uncock hammer, secure in case.
For springers: remove mag, cock action once and fire in a safe direction. Secure in case.
Don't compare these procedures to RS ones, please. This is airsoft. :)