KAC Stoner 96/Classic Army Knights LMG
 

GET #REKT, ARES!


Overview

So I've been waiting for this gun to come out literally for years. After hearing horror stories about the Ares version, I decided not to fork out for one of theirs. Even if the CA was gonna be junk, I figured I'd just make it work.

You get potato tablet pics again because I don't have a proper camera.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...240eac536134f7

The gun weighs approximately 10lbs, so it's heavier than you'd expect, but a hell of a lot more maneuverable then say, a full sized m249.

Stock FPS is approximately 400, so it's good to go for most Canadian fields. However, it's a CA, so don't expect the stock guts to last when subjected to LMG style fire.

The stock rate of fire is sad with an 11.1 lipo and absolutely abysmal with a 7.4. It makes me and baby Eugene very sad.

It comes with a fixed (but removable with a screw) front sight and a RIS mounted rear sight. If you leave the rear sight on and want to run an optic, either run it on the front shroud RIS, or use a tiny optic. I put a 551 in front of the folding rear sight and it blocked the feed tray from opening.

The stock is collapsible, and is the most wobbly part of the gun. Nothing too crazy. I'm going to see if the buffer tube adapter for the Ares version will fit on this guy because I put crane stocks on everything that I own.

The included rail covers are nice, and the vert grip is of OK quality. The outer barrel is very solid for being a free float.

The magazine uses a similar mounting hardware to the M249 series to attach itself to the body. The included magazine is almost identical to the nutsack type 100 round M249 magazines. Other mags seat, but are wobbly. Some shimming with some tape should fix that.

CA KAC mag vs MAG 100R style 249 mag
https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...7d&oe=54B40D6C

The actual feed tube sits differently. At the end of the feed spring, there is a metal tube with a ridge in it. This ridge hooks onto a small peg in the receiver, and the whole thing is held in place by a spring loaded plate. Quite solid, actually. If you could get your hands on more of the metal tubes for the feed springs, it looks like it would be pretty easy to convert your already existent M249 mags to work with this guy (AKA the 5000 round boxes)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...8ea5f754778c26
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...8da2454605bdee
[img][/img]

Disassembly

1) Remove the outer barrel by depressing the big button on top of the receiver and sliding the outer out.

2) Remove the stock by unscrewing the bolt on the bottom of the stock, then depress the lever on the side of the receiver to slide off the stock plate.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...fcdc2f1fe4e806

3)Underneath the gun, remove the screw located on the box mag mounting bracket, then the whole bracket will slide out of the gun

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...1a2f97ac6f6f50

4) Depress the other tab on the back of the receiver, and the upper and lower should slide apart. They are held together by a tongue and groove system. NOTE: THE RECEIVER MAY BE QUITE HARD TO SEPARATE, USE CAUTION

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...579b2d66538b72

5) Remove the pistol grip as you would any normal AR. Note that both wires run out the FRONT of the pistol grip and the motor is installed backwards.

6) Remove these two body pins, same as you'd find on an AR

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...8408d440d97b00

7) Depress the trigger (safety off) and slide the gearbox out. Easy!

Wiring Shenanigans

Wiring from the gearbox itself is standard wet noodle 16AWG wire. But, after the fuse box, there is a second tamiya connector and the wires switch over to 18AWG little b*tch wire. That resistance probably has something to do with the horrible rate of fire.

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...4e&oe=54EBD03A

The cutout part of the receiver that held the fuse box looks like it'd be great to hold a small-medium fet like a nano ASR. I will be doing this in the future as the stock trigger switch is a small, non standard 5A switch and I'm terrified that I'm gonna fry it.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...cd7e17bf90b1fa

The wires are run out the front of the gearbox and sped a bit of time on the outside of it to get around the anti reversal latch.

Wiring:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...cd5b1f56df1a36

Gearbox and guts

The gearbox is a proprietary design, but it looks like CA plans on using it for at least one other gun in the future. The back of where the bevel gear sits has a circular cutout for a motor shaft as well as two wire guides, though no motor cage mounting area. The gearbox is a beast, though the machining and finish are quite rough. It looks like a JG gearbox to me.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...174eb90a937796

It features a "quick" change spring guide, though you have to disassembly 3/4 of the gun to get to it. Depress the spring guide, knock the pin out, and out comes your spring.

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...60&oe=54E92CFF

The motor is notoriously weak, I believe it's a sportline motor due to the shiny blue shaft that's on it.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...22ec9f6813c6b4

Standard steel gears, 8mm bearings, all V2/V3 parts. Shimming was ok, too many shims on the spur gear, and the stock AoE is crap.

The compression bits are a bore up kit! Regular parts will not be compatible!. However, the stock compression parts gave me a 100% air seal which made be happy. The cylinder head is a double O ring and the piston head is aluminum. Note: be careful when removing the piston head. They use a lot of glue/loctite to keep it attached to the stock piston . The cylinder is a tad shorter than normal so you'll have to modify any aftermarket cylinders that you want to install.

Note that HUGE AMOUNT OF SPACE AROUND THE TRIGGER. Why did they not go with a standard size m249 button switch? Why do we have this piddly little thing instead?

Nozzle length is just under 19mm and has an O ring.

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...2c&oe=54AD0044

The tappet plate was warped out of the box. Aftermarket plates will need to be shaved before they'll fit in the gearbox. I tried a modify and an SHS tappet plate, both would not move freely when the gearbox was screwed closed.

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...6c&oe=54F30C4B

I tried several different pistol grips, none of which seemed to fit the gun nicely. Here's what a grip alignment checker tool looks like in an Element A1 grip.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...3fccdbd5f6a206

I cannot get the thing to stop whining. After about 10 hours of work on it, it won't get to a quiet enough level that I'm happy with it. I have a feeling something in the gun is misaligned, and/or I got a lemon. I could not get Siegetek gears to work in it at all after several attempts. I will try some SHS 13:1s after this weekend.


Overall, it's pretty similar to the M249. You'll run into the same annoyances with getting compression between a gearbox and free floating barrel as you would with a 249, and will run into the same box mag feed spring jamming issues.

Despite my criticisms, I am still happy with it. It's going to be one of those projects that takes a lot of TLC to get working properly, but when I finally get everything right on it, it will probably be my primary (RIP G&P Stoner 63). I've had this thing apart about 7 times so far, so if anyone has any specific questions, feel free to post or message me.

Still uses a microswitch? Really?
Epicfail. For shame CA.

I shall update with my findings this weekend...maybe.

I can already think of a bunch of things that have to come out of this gun immediately. ie: dat wiring

In the meantime, hit me up with some dummy rounds if you can find some plox.

How wide is the gas tube?

Looking at buffer tube lipos for this gun.

Thanks

the stock mechanism is internal in the 'buffer' tube AND the gas tube is large enough for lipos AND longer then a buffer tube so why bother trying to run a buffer tube lipo?

I'm looking at this review here:
http://www.team-black-sheep.com/the-...mg-from-zshot/

It says they ran a Echo 1 11.1 buffer tube lipo in the gas tube and it was 20 mm wide.

The amperage from that battery isn't satisfactory to me and thus, I am looking at this one:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...arehouse_.html
Where it is 1 mm wider, can give me 30 amps, and it can make a difference, which is why I ask.

Thanks for the review, Spike. Unfortunate, but maybe the next batch will lack some of these downfalls.

I've nowhere near the technical expertise you do, so I think I'll think with my 249 for now, which is already tinkered with.

Gamed my LMG for the first time yesterday - stock other than a total rewiring job and Deans conversion.

It's an enjoyable gun to play with, blew through just over 5000 bbs during a 5 hour outdoor skirmish. One 1300mah 7.4v lipo lasted the entire game, no problem there. ROF was by no means high, but good enough for me. I wouldn't want it any higher - that 1200 round box mag goes fast while suppressing.

Speaking of the box mag, as was mentioned the loading door will not stay shut so I used some electrical tape to keep it shut, which made reloading a pain in the ass. I was impressed with the auto-wind feature and how quiet the box mag is in general. I was worried about lots of bb rattle or a loud whine, but had no issues with either.

Range was solid, accuracy only so-so. A hop upgrade is next on the list. I did not experience any jams or misfeeds using .28 elite force bio bbs.

Having only played with M4 aegs previously, it was a nice change of pace. It's light for an LMG and no issues carrying it around with no sling all day, but I'm feeling it in my arms and shoulders today for sure.

Overall quite pleased with it.

I will note from my day of gaming with mine, my box mag jammed pretty soon into the day with madbull 0.28g styrene BBs. I have parts en route for the thing, I will update my internal upgrade and rear wiring adventures when I get it done.

Wouldn't matter as I highly doubt the mechbox/motor combo needs 30 amps.

Spike - where did it jam? inside the box mag or at the feed tube?

After putting over 5000 rounds through mine in play I did have some jamming issues in my feed tube, leaving it on auto wind and giving the feed tube a light pull whenever it jammed solved the issue every time. Had one jam in the barrel/hopup but that had more to do with the couple week old bio bbs then anything else and was simply fixed in game thanks to the quick change barrel.

Also going to point out that many members of my team are very impressed with the stock performance, size and weight of the stoner to the point where many of them are going to get one.

I can't seem to find one of these anywhere. All Ares LMG. If anyone can PM me where they got theirs, thank you thank you thank you.

Is the nozzle the same size as the 249 ones? I may buy one to drop a polarstar F1 in when I inevitably get one.

So I am a little confused. Many people have slammed the Ares Stoner because of feed problems, weak internals, etc.. The same people say the CA is better. Then the same people say the CA Stoner has feed problems, weak internals, etc. Hmmmm.

Just say'in

Yeah, neither of them are very good.

I am probably going to SMP mine.

Myself and another tech have both spent quite a bit of time trying to make the damn thing not sound like a dying cat while being fired, no dice. Judging from the shoddy gearbox casting, I'm going to assume that this is the fault here.

Sorry to sound like I'm asking a lot, but, any updates on the internals?

Considering this Stoner as basically G&P and CA M249 SAW type guns don't exist and A&K has lower quality metal.

Thanks

The internals haven't been look at in a while. The issue is the angle that the motor intersects with the bevel gear. It's not at a proper angle so you're going to get motor whine regardless of what you do.

If you're someone who has no problem running stock sounding AEGs, that's fine. It functions just as well as any other LMG. I just can't stand the noise :p

Gonna start this project at the end of the month.
Got a few grips I can try out...

I threw a HK416 AEG grip on mine and it still has the standard AEG whine, which sucks, I'm not 100% sure what I'm going to do to try to fix the issue other than replace the grip with a better quality grip in the same style, I'm anxious to see your findings EOD Steve

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...82383891_o.jpg

I've tried a few different grips with no luck.

I could have also got a lemon, wouldn't be the first time I've had a lemon CA...

Oooh, how did you do the stock mod?

Also, general question, how do y'all sling your Stoners?

I was thinking of a getting a rail sling mount and if the stock mod is easy enough, just run the back of the sling through there.

EDIT: Just saw your post on the stock, looks great! Gotta find someone or time/tools to do it myself in the future perhaps.

Although you don't see it in the picture, I picked up an RSA QD Sling Mount that is mounted on the front rail. I use a Magpul MS4 sling with QD Attachment points that I attach to the stock and to the front sling point. That was one of the main goals of the stock swap, to allow me to run a sling without having to dedicate a sling to this build specifically.

I've got an idea for fixing your AEG whine!!! Put an SMP in it!!! I'll help you, buy the new hydra with appropriate nozzle and the Bluetooth FCU (order one of those for mine too) :) and come over and we'll make it work! It will sound like this when we're done...


Did you hear it? Exactly.... ;)

Yuh.

That is something I'm considering, but at the same time I don't know if I want to invest that heavily into a build that I may not use as my primary... I'm still considering it, but I'm hesitant due to the work that will be involved with the trigger switch, etc.
still on the books through...

Jeff - your images are gone!

Also - has anybody found a suitable nozzle replacement for this thing?

Any try the Stock Adaptor from Ares on this yet??

Did some work on the platform this weekend.

• Modified stock trigger to add adjustability for pre-travel and break
• Added wiring for a Gate MERF 3.2 MOSFET (CA wire is already 16awg low-resistance wire but I replaced one length with milspec 16awg wire)
• Removed stock wiring tray in lower receiver for a cleaner MOSFET install
• Installed Magpul MOE grip (motor angle isn't good but comfort is more important in this build as the gun weighs 10+ lbs)

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCANcc-6qPM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ps0pidxwkn.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...pstvpdfldo.jpg

Goddammit, I had them hosted on Facebook instead of Imgur. Whatever.

Did you keep the stock microswitch? Have a chance to stress test it yet?

Hooked up the MERF 3.2 so I hope the stock switch lasts. Going on 1k rounds now.

I think helljumper was curious about my grip findings - Magpul MOE grip - while the motor angle checker tool yielded that it was about 4-5 degrees off, it doesn't sound that bad. Dytac and VFC A2 grips yielded accurate motor angles.

I will start fiddling with the barrel group soon....

this is a good read.... tempted to rewire it to the buttstock and run the vfc bevel on shs 13:1s. Ive been getting good results with vfc bevels and semi terribad angled pistol grips. maybe the smp proj will be on a quick pause :P

I am looking to mod the stock any suggestion or help would be appreciated.
thanks for grip and motor info working on that

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=170062

Wiring tip - Do NOT try to rewire the red/black wires on either side of the motor grip. You will destroy your negative lead.

I'm really liking the pre-travel/break adjustment screw. After running the stoner all weekend at the Graylings blacksheep game, I'm thinking I'm going to work on that.

What motor are you currently running? I've re-wired mine to 16awg Milspec but have no where near that ROF ...

You will need adjustment screws on both sides. One for pre-travel to maintain safety and one to modify the break point. You will see what I mean when you start fiddling with it.

Using a Lonex A1 with stock gears. Going to run them until they go, then will switch to 20:1 Siegeteks for a slower LMG ROF.

Some time has passed since Stoner by CA and Ares have been released.
Any noticeable difference between the brands?

Sweet!!

Would anyone know if the box mag of the ares can be used on the ca? Also, if the stock mod can be used as well?