How Long Should a Milsim Be - 18hr or 12hr
 

Lets face it - its no mystery that 18 hour milsims seem to be too long for the average shooter.

I'm also hard pressed to believe that those who are the drivers stay up all night without catching 40 winks at some point - and when you do the math, that can take numbers out of the game for however long.

Also - for the hardcore roughnecks who give it their all, all night long - nothing is more frustrating than finding someone to actually shoot when you're on the prowl and 'aint shit in sight.

Which leads me to my overall question which might help some hosts out(to which there are few these days!! I really miss some of the older ones, but that's a different subject all together)

How long should a milsim be? What would work better for people?

I've been to 12 hour milsims that were near flawless, it was brilliant. Im all for it and it prevents a lot of the mishaps and drop outs and any of the other shit that comes with 18hr or longer. IMO

Feel free to discuss and talk shop.

Considering that most people have to drive 1-2 hours to the event, then there is the brief/ gearing time then the drive back even a 12 hr milsim end up being a full day thing. It is very hard for many people to actually stay for a night game because of many obligations we have.

All depends on the crowd and what's happening during said period of time.

We recently did our annual OP Woodsman. First mission started at aprox. 12 AM, ended officially Sunday morning, supposed to end Sunday at noon.
We had a bit of down time, some missions were volunteer base and it went great.

Nobody crapped or burned out.

IMO - Too many milsims try and cram in as much as they can get.

I think the current durations for milsims (18hr and 24hr) are fine. The issue is finding players that stick it out for the whole time! Like you said, nothing is more frustrating then to be patrolling endlessly searching for an enemy that isn't even on the field anymore.

Too many "Milsims" aren't Milsims.. They're skirmishes for 12-18h+ fighting back n forth over the same buildings/rooms/valleys/rivers. The last "real" MILSIM I attended we set up 3 man posts for security. Did rehearsals at night for the morning mission, rotated watch/sleep, and assaulted at dawn. All while the special operator nvg recce teams were behind enemy lines all night mapping out the enemy camp and our assault path.

RIP OP WEREWOLF

Last Deadfall was 24 hours and saw almost nobody dropping out despite ridiculous amounts of rain. Deadfall next weekend is once again 24 hours, and I doubt we will see many if anybody leaving early.

Art of War was 30 hours last year and once again not many people dropped and it was an amazing game.

Athena II was 20 hours and an absolutely awesome game with everybody (or close to that) fighting till the end.

Ofcourse these are long durations but if you have a team of 30 players on each side, take turns sleeping, that is what makes a milsim so exciting by adding a resource management component.

So how long should a milsim be? It is up to the host. Offering milsims with different durations is probably best, this allows everybody to go to an event that suits them. One weekend I have lots of time so I want to go to a long game, one weekend I have less time so I want to go to a shorter game.

I don't think there is a best duration. Every players milage may be different depending on the weekend.

Personally, from past experience, I like 18 hour or longer milsims. Commutes to most games are long and I don't want to drive 3 hours for a short game. Plus I want to play a decent amount during the day and a decent amount at night. So overall I prefer the longer games that make a trip worth it and fill a weekend that is dedicated to airsoft with lots of game time. That being said, sometimes a short 8 hour milsim can be just as awesome as a 24 hour one.

Having yet to actually play a game, are MilSim players committed to the duration? Are uneducated players, like myself, welcome to play for as long as available? Is tactical education/experience manditory?

^ This.

Also, players are not ready to pay 30$-40$ for a game where you might not even shoot 1 BB in your whole day. 2 years ago I attended this game where me and my buddies were a recon squad, and shot a total of 6 BBs inside 8 hours. Did I had my fun ? Hell yeah, regardless if I shot 6 or 6000 BBs in my game.

This is hit or miss, as it depends on the player... Most of the hardcore guys will arrive and stick it out to the end but this could also apply to someone going to their first milsim game. It all depends on your frame of mind.

New guys are usually always welcome, as long as you display the willingness to learn, a commitment to staying in the fight, being mentally and physically prepared, and finally following your chain of command you'll be fine, and will likely be welcomed back to other ops.

Obviously previous tactical knowledge and experience will give you an edge... but if you don't have it there are few better ways to learn it ;)

All depends on how much time you have to pursue this hobby, I like 18-24 a few times a year and some 8-12 hours to fill in the gaps. A lot of weekends I can only get out and skirmish 4-5 hours. Wife, kids, job and other interests limit many peoples free time.

Length of game is immaterial. There is no specification or standard required for a "milsim". Some will do well with a point at which it should end, others will end when the objectives have been completed, however long that will take.

Milsim is such an overused term as well. I agree with Leth that what I consider to be "milsim" are few and far between. There are certainly more seriously minded games out there, such as the OP No-Nods and Nightfall, but I would not count those as "milsim". They are still games with two equally sided forces fighting for essentially the same goals, with the same command structure. While these games were quite fun, the milsim to be had were in the private moments with small teams making their own experience milsim. Those teams that did that were able to continue through the entirety of the game, and I have no doubt would have continued to do so indefinitely until the conditions for stopping were met.

The key to making longer games last the whole time is to ensure strong leadership. Strong leadership at the heads of each faction, supported by strong leadership running the smaller units of folks beneath them doing the work, supported by strong leadership in the sub-units, and so on and so forth. Those that are able to keep track of their people to ensure that they are ready to endure the whole event will prevail, and they will maintain their entire force or close to it for the duration.

It's not the length of the game that matters, but it is the quality of those present, particularly those who are charged with leading others. A good leader will ensure that even if his least prepared member is adequately prepared or adequately looked after once it's apparent that this person's preparedness was lax.

Everyone is capable of doing the whole event, given the right rest, motivation and morale. This shit isn't hard, and it's generally, at most, 24 hours. Kid's play.

If you are not a leader, you still have a responsibility to ensure that you can endure the whole event. You can make preparations for yourself, and you can ensure that you are adequately equipped to take care of yourself, and your buddies. The problem is not the length of game, but in fact the mindset.

Aper & Leth are both on the money with this one - I couldn't agree more.

Truth be told - I feel its the night time where things begin to fall apart

RIP Jaguar Kings & Wolfpack games!

+1 Boom. This man got it.

The old ops at WP Primary were more MilSim than the more recent 18-24hr sims.
WP Primary Played well into the night and thru to Morning hours. Celebrating in true Military fashion with war stories Booze and Spray-Bombs. What's missing from the recent games is the hours of Camaraderie. Real team building is helping your opponent back to his Hooch after Bears, Beers, beerzz beer and Chili farts gone wrong. Start 830 game over at 430-500 Dinner roast and then fire lights 830-900. War stories till Drunk or dawn what ever comes first. The AARs on Monday are full of Legends.

Nice to see posts by people who still understand the meaning of MilSim.

Respect.

One of the best milsim events I have ever been to was 2 hours long.. it's been 2 years since that OP and those who were there still talk about it.

one of the worst was 18 hours long and felt like sticking a pencil in your eye for 18 hours straight.

Duration of the event is not material to satisfaction.

Just a quick note as I have now been to couple 12+ games this year is all the "make sure you're prepared" comments. As a new person never attending anything like this in the past that comment is like telling someone they should know how to swim even though they have never been in water.

As far as I'm concerned start small and work yourself up as long as you're still enjoying yourself. I personally find 6-8 hours of flatout action to be awesome right now.

people need to define milsim better...

What constitutes milsim to folks?

unit based deployment and tactics in force on force engagements, where you live and die by squad tactics? with organized squad structures and comms and chain of command? With limitations on uniform and gear, rules for fire discipline, etc.

or

highly thought out choose your own adventure type logic immersion scenarios that unfold differently depending on objectives failed or achieved, based on strict role playing RoEs, that also require strict chain of command, unit deployments etc that may or may not result in force on force action depending on how your commanders choose to play their game?

cause those are 2 different types of military styled simulation, and it seems that people both outside that spectrum and inside aren't clear on what is what.

I've encountered players who say the latter is a bunch of bullshit so the former must be as well.

On the other hand you have players saying the latter is just skirmish.

I see 3 pretty distinct categories here.

Guys who skrim will probably like milsim combat... but maybe they don't care for playing roles in a scenario. Guys who like to play a role and fire maybe 3 shots in 24 hours might not like running around rolling in muck to get those kills and reloading lots.

Guys who play the more shooting style are likely not going to last longer because they're exerting a lot more energy with more action, whereas guys who play the scenario sims will have more energy because they're not running around for most of the duration of the game.

They're different. People like variety.

Game organizers should be more clear on what they're presenting to gather the proper playerbase for their games.

Players should understand what they're signing up for and not piss off halfway through a set hour commitment. You sign up for a 12 or 18 hour game... make sure you account for the before and after logistics of the game weekend. It doesn't mean you fuck off at hour 18-X because you have to drive home or because you're losing. Account for those hours and deal with it.


Honestly I don't believe it's an issue with game length. There are plenty of players in the community that demonstrate they can last x hours + whatever it takes to get to and from the field.

It's a problem with organizers and players with the wrong expectations because of poor planning or poor commitment due to poor planning.

Could start the hardcore guys off at night and have the 12hr guys join them in the morning?

There are some great points here, but it all comes down to two things; the complexity of the game, and the attendees.

First of all, a 24 hour, or endurance game, is for players who want that experience. Stop inviting people who quit. The best games I attended were invite only. If you're going to have an open invitation game, make sure to outline the expectations of the players. If you show up to someone's game for just a short stint, and then you and your group leave, possibly unbalancing the game, then I'd be sure to never invite you back again. Even a game that has some kinks in it can be saved by the players rolling with the punches. It can be the best or worst planned op in history, but having the right type of players out there is what will make or break it. Who's been to a half assed op and had a great time? Who's been to an extravagantly planned one that ended up ruined by just a few bad apples? Often times focus and herding is an issue at larger/longer ops. It can often be better to limit the total amount of players. I'm just sayin', it's hard to corral three-hundred people in the right directions all the time.

Secondly, plan for multi-objectives, and things to fight over. A single piece of land should never be the games prime objective, or as mentioned above, it all turns into a skirmish. Key capture points are great from a tactical standpoint, but people and objects to hunt for are better. You can accomplish this with intel throughout play. And of course, always have a backup set. Sometimes one group gets traction early and may run over the opposition. If all relative objectives are finished early, have a plan to move on. Plan your game from daylight to daylight times. Starting a game at night only works if it is strictly a night game. People get mentally prepared to do sims, especially endurance ones. If your game starts around dinner time, the human body is already in shutdown mode. They're getting hungry, tired, their bodies are exhausting heat, etc. Have the fight on well before this happens to keep people rocking all night. Also plan for possible breaks or lulls, just in case some people do need some shuteye. Give your players a reason to pick a fight with the opposing team. Give the other team a truck or something, and tell the opposing team they can have it if they can take it. You want these two sides to not want to leave each other alone. Midnight hits while they try and rack up, or scouting and raids can be great ways to keep up the competition level. Prizes for winning battles would work too. Don't raffle that shit off afterwards, give it out to a team that accomplishes something. "If you boys can capture X by midnight, then hot dogs for your squad...

Other things to consider like, where is the op being held? Some places aren't good for long periods, others aren't good for at night, and others can be quite grueling or dangerous. Have food, water, and ammo available for purchase. Players and teams do forget things, it does happen. However, the most hardcore of hardcore won't make it far without those things, abd it won't matter if their home is two hours, or twenty hours away; they'll be leaving. Admin strength is key as well. Be prepared to deal with the bad types quickly and efficiently. A few assclowns can ruin it for everyone else. Make sure your admins are fair and sportsmanlike minded, but also have their ass kickin' boots tied up tight. On that note, don't be afraid to ban players and teams from returning, especially those with a shitty history. There are teams out there, that I won't mention on here, that people will avoid. "If they're going, then we aren't"; sort of thing. If your running the game, then have your people devided into both sides a little to keep players and the game focused.

There's several other things to consider, but I'll leave you all with this one. If you don't intend on playing through, then do not attend to begin with. Endurance games are for people who want that sort of thing. "Also, if people are supposed to be hunting/fighting you, abd you're in your car in the safe area sleeping, then you're a complete $&@#%¥, abd should have your eyes gouged out!"

That's not a bad ideal... it'll be like a wave of fresh reinforcements

There was WWII OP last july where we did just that.

The germans where hold up in a "town" and the allied had to do a night recon followed by an attack the following day.

We were 8 allied doing a night recon, marking bunkers, strong points, enemy resistence from 2200 to 0130.

After that, Everyone went to sleep. We went at our "camp site" and the germans stayed in the village but the game was off. At 0900, the rest of the allied/Axis forces showed up.

We had one hell of a time and nobody quited.

It's great getting the night game out of the way right off the bat when all the guys that wanna do it are ready for it.
On the other hand, it's great when you can last till 5am after already having played for 12 lol

We've been running 17hr games out here that have worked out really well.
Having planned and participated in games ranging from 1 hour to 36 hours in my 13 years playing this format hits the right spots.
Game starts @ 10PM and goes until 5PM next day. Allows long term players to indulge in the night time portion then we have daytime players come join us at 10AM the next day.
We've found that players tend to play the night portion until around 4AM ish giving a good solid 5-6 hours of play then a minor downtime until 8am.
For the most part not many people tend to drop dead from this format as it has a natural rest time and when daytime players come to reinforce allows the full time players to take a small break/eat/etc.

The biggest factor to any long format game is ensuring that commanders are on the ball and properly rotating/resting folks as best as they can. It's sometimes tough to tell your average airsofter "Hey take an hours break" when all they want to do is go-go-go. and think that they are going to miss out on something. Those type of players are usually the ones who gas out the earliest so game organizers sort of need to take a bit of that into account.

As per red dot's comment;
In manitoba, CT made most of the keystone games invite only. If you were a noob and if it was your first big milsim, you HAD TO attend a 12 hour training game before hand, which was basically just wolfpack marching you through the bush for 6 hours with sporadic contact and then a night game.

It was fantastic training for the newer people, and they made it through the 24hr game. Unfortunately the people who really needed the training never showed up and always quit like 2 hours into the night game -_-

So many variables, and people attend milsims/mil-skirms with varying degree of motivation, and levels of preparedness.

My own level of experience is admittedly, greatly limited. Trying to last the full term of the event, has been the goal itself, for myself, with varying degrees of success, the past ~2 years attending a handful of events.

In that limited experience, i'd say 12 hours is my own limit - with rest, or not.

I've seen others, in much better physical condition, "Live fast and die young" very early into the game - whether through not pacing themselves, or simply not being prepared for the conditions.

The two mil-skirmish events i attended this year - I had a great time.. but there were limitations in relation to length of event.

The first - Op: No Nods - I simply crashed and burned after being more or less up for 22 hours at around the 05:00 hrs mark (including travel time to Picton), and getting ill in the process. I discovered in this Op, that an 18 hrs event is simply not realistic _for me_. Others burned out, far far earlier. If i'd stayed longer, i would have been getting home Sunday evening, instead of late Sunday morning - thank goodness, for the relatively quiet roads to get back home on, in order to crash in my own bed.. I ain't been that tired since driving down to South Carolina in a single 16 hr stretch, and that was almost 20 years ago..

The second - Op: Niagara - even given that i severely fucked one of my legs up (even more) in a trip and fall 20 minutes into the game, was a much more realistic goal to attain at ~12 hrs duration, albeit at reduced engagement. Much closer to home to drive somewhat tired and beat-up also, once all was said and done.

As said, it all comes down to highly individual circumstances, preparedness, capabilities, and personal commitment and mindset to see things through.

While i will likely always be pretty much a once a month skirmisher, for the milsim/mil-skirmish style events that i will occasionally attend in the future, 12 hours appears to be the sweet spot.

I will never be hardcore milsim material.

This game was fantastic because objectives were going right up until the end.
Fuzzhead and game control put effort into this game and it showed.

That game is a perfect example that if you keep the players engaged in anything, (regardless of the player pool) they will stick it out right til the end.

Alot of hosts will do a 24 hour game, the first 8 hours will be a milsim, the rest ends up being a skirmish, and then they wonder why players dont stick around until the end. lol.

12 hours, 24 hours, it doesnt matter, aslong as there is effort put into the game.

I lean towards 24 just because alot of us dont like the idea of driving 3 + hours for a 12 hour game. But depending on the game and host that doesnt matter that much.

Hrmm. So really to sum a lot of this up the onis really sounds to fall back on the host and their staff.

Being a vet of many 18hr sims a lot of them did feel like they fizzed out of story line and objectives around the 8-10 hour mark. Obviously there is the select few games that continued to bring the awesome all through out. Kudos to fuzzhead and the thamesville games for that.

Maybe hosts should start small in relation to length and focus on keeping players busy before trying something longer. It would actually probably build a good returning player base as well.

Fuck a lot of good reads in here though. Heres to the rest of 2014 onto 2015 in hopes that games stop plateauing.

My opinions are also limited to Ontario games but i think the lack of hosts has a lot to do with it. I think we maybe have 5-6 people hosting regular skirms and maybe less for the more reputable milsims.

Well, I think there was a point in time where players and hosts just wanted say that they had done a twenty-four hour game. Just playing airsoft for twenty-four hours does nothing. Especially when you can play for six hours and accomplish the same things. Twenty-four hours are supposed to be a true test. It doesn't really matter how short or long a game is, as long as it's filled with the right objectives and the right people.

Also: RIP Wolfpack games (Keystone & Cold Front)

I put this notice at the beginning of the event page for my next large game. It's a summary of my feelings on the topic.

"Milsim; a dirty word for an organizer. Milsim is an aspect brought to the game by the players themselves. The host exists to create the*situation and the players exist to deal with that situation. I believe that HOW they do it is up to them and I never waste my time enforcing a 'milsim' approach... I simply arrange games to allow the teams with the better leadership and organization to dominate."

Basically, you want milsim? Bring it with you. It comes from the players to act as a unit. The host can only provide a field and scenario. Anyone who bitches about not having enough milsim from hosts isn't looking at the players.

I am not going to tell people how to act in a game as a host. If they want to dress like Rambo and run around with a nerf knife I'm just as fine with that as I am with seeing a uniform unit with organized fire teams out there.

Just, you know, the team that works better together tends to rule.

I dont want the Onus on the players to make the game. Its gotta be the host. Thats like me, having a party and only providing the venue, and hoping it turns out good. A better host would get a keg, music, maybe food.


Complaining about the people who leave a boring game early, is weird. Give them a reason to stick around until the end and they will

I ain't saying a proper host is providing a field and setting up an 18 hour game of capture the flag and hoping someone is bringing a flag. They definitely bring the props, pyro, food and story.

HOW the players negotiate their way through those things on the field is up to the players, though. I'm not saying they have to bring the setting of the game. They have to bring HOW they play the game with them and that's where I believe the difference is.

I've seen two teams play against each other with completely different styles. One side scattered and played with no organization at all, just gagglefucking with no plan. The other side organized and communicated, had a clear chain of command and leader, contingencies and such with an overall plan. Contact reports were passed up, orders were passed down. You can guess which side was subjected to a thorough seal clubbing.

That's why I say milsim is what is brought by the players. I might meet you halfway though and say the players are equally responsible for the milsim aspect of the game. I mean, what good is a bitchin' scenario when you get a dozen randomly-firing newfags who show up in jeans and t-shirts all of who are carrying stock sniper rifles and they crap out in three hours because they're getting plowed hard and put away wet?

^you mean like claybank? lol
poor green

That was my point as well. Players are the ones who really make it what it is, no matter how well or poor it's organized. It all starts with a serious game organizer putting in the effort though.

Its the night time where things fall apart. I've always like the games where ammo is provided and very limited. If you keep the ammo extremely limited at night, you can put objectives into place where players who dont have NV will stay in the action.

But if you have guys with NV with full ammo walking around, the balance is so out of wack its no wonder players lose interest.

athena 2 was so dark at night that I couldnt see my hand in front of my face, but game controll had missions all night, so regardless of the fact that most people didnt have NV, everybody was still engaged in the action because the hosts kept everyone busy with something to do...

If its going to be a milsim - hosts need to provide the ammo and incorporate it into the sign up fee. Its almost a sure fire way of avoiding the sim turning into a skirmish.

Some of the most fun ive had were the games where i barely finished one mag. It was always a constant question wether an engagement was worth the ammo.

As a response to some of the above - the host makes the game, the players only contribute a more enjoyable expirience.

This upcoming year i know me and my guys are going to picking our major events more carefully.

The ammo thing is tough. I've been at sims with one single, concentrated firefight lastng over four hours. Also, many people will only run certain ammo types through their guns, brand, weight, etc. What happens if a host doesn't have what you need, or you run out mid game?

People keep bringing up that the missions may be too long and cite that people leave or stop fighting early. That's PART of the MILSIM. Look, if you want a proper milsim there is no respawn point at all. You show up, you get your mission file, and you try to carry it out; get hit pack your shit up and go home cause you're dead.

But that would suck when a game is supposed to fill up 18-24hr of game play and you get smoked an hour in.


Because we want to keep gaming you have respawns that simulate fresh reinforcements. SEND IN THE CLONES! :D But no matter how well equipped a military may be, reinforcements are not a constant and do diminish over time. Even gorilla/militia groups can't keep the bodies flowing and often these are countries where breeding is a requirement similar to taxes.

We also tend to forget that the majority of airsofters don't have gym memberships or know how to do a proper squat, pushup, or plank. So it is only natural that they thin out as the battle wears on for 18hrs. Even the fittest guys/gals out there are going to slow down after 3-4hr fire fighting; specially running back and forth respawning. Seriously, dying in airsoft is often the most taxing exercise you'll do all day; well if your plan is to get back into the fight right away.


Back in the Rawdon days one thing was clear, the game constantly needed to be changed as it progressed. The Organizers kept changing objectives as the day wore on; taking into account the number of people that were phasing from the bases to the camp/safe zones, where firefights were never ending, which objectives showed stalemate, and then plugging that all together to inspire forces to relocate, reorganize, and assault the shit out of something else. Letting a firefight last for half the day on ONE objective is not conducive to inspiring those retreating from the heat and exhaustion at the camp area to get back in the fray. Accept that the one side has held this spot long enough that they are unlikely to be pushed out shortly and change their objective so that holding that position is now counterproductive to them! Bam; now that hornets nest you been trying to sneak into, is buzzing up a shit storm.



The real world doesn't have a pause button, game shark, or cheat sheets to configure any battle to go any way or the other; with the exception of precision artillery, airstrikes, and CAS, that is all hand of god shit right there! It will not matter the length of the game, even pushing through a FULL 24hr of stale no contact, no movement, no comms game can have it's merit. But it's when shit goes sideways do the war stories you remember get written.

Best game ever was half our OWN team took off and left a force of us outnumbered 4-1; ammo became a big concern there! And we had to hold a base OP while what was left of the team scouted out and hit other objectives; because if we lost the base it was game over, if we didn't hit the other objectives it was just a slow death loss.

Speaking of ammo; it seems strange to me for organizers to impose field ammo only, and want people ready for 24hr of fighting. The course can be so different for different roles. A RECCE team can show up with 3 mags and have plenty to spare; but when the situation goes sideways that can change FAST! But every time I saw this I noted that it became clear that the ammo would not last; specially when you have a few SAWs kicking around. Nothing worse than the game comes to a grinding halt because you can't engage because the ammo is gone half way into the game.

Weight and type restrictions always made sense though; as that's simple for anyone to know in advance and make quick tuning adjustments to hop-ups and such to use the requested ammo.



No Milsim is a proper game with out a massive bon fire with beer flowing the night before followed by a massive BBQ and additional beer flow at game end. Full stop, that's a rule, not accepting this is like suggesting Bacon is not a food group!

That would probably be one of the greatest motivators to get shit done. I recommend that all game hosts incorporate this into their milsims immediately!

We did a small scale sim like this, abd it worked great. We had other things like, completing X before night vision was unlocked, abd the like. It worked out pretty well. On that note, I wouldn't use something like night vision as a perk again. Many players pay a small fortune for their NVGs, and only get a couple times a year to use it, so maybe something else, next time. Also having a safety stand down, and game update may work. Stop for an hour, and have everyone re-provision themselves, nap, get objective updates, etc. Honestly though, perhaps having a mandatory rack-time might work. Every team must put 1/3 of their force to rack between such and such a time, then another 1/3, then the remainder. Intelligent commanders will do this anyways. Having a few thermoset full of hot coffee for those waking up after a two hour nap might be a good idea as well. Always have a legitimate rest area. Having your guys sleep at an objective is risky, and won't really allow them the rest they need. Unless it's like some games I've been to, wgere we were expected to wake up during an attack, abd join in the fight each time. There's always options. Honestly though, one of the best things about sims is harassing the enemy while they are trying to sleep. Keep 'em beat, keep 'em tired.

Make it beer and bacon and I'll clear 100 mother&#$!ers out of any feild by Midnight ;)

I think there is nothing wrong with long duration games. milsim is intended to be a full emerssion into what it is to be in an actuall combat situation. The first 6-10 hours prety much serves to get you so burnt and stressed out that you want to give up. Then, and only then are you in a simaler mindset to what those in real combat deal with on the regular. This is when your team, and command plays a huge roll in keeping you motivated, showing you that little glimmer of hope that keeps you all pushing forward for the common goal, victory, not victory in the sence of winning (tho that is nice) victory in that everyone make it out together at the end, having overcome difficult odds in harsh conditions. Then gathering around at the end with good friends and foes and having some good stories to tell over a well deserved hearty meal and some recreational indulgence.
One of my first real events was a milsim, it was OP wearwolf. It was a bit of a cluster fuck, i wont get into it fully, those who were there know how it played out. But at the end of it all we sat around a big ole bonfire after a massive feast got a lil tipsy and told "war stories" well into the wee hours. Did we win, hell no, and it may have been designed that way, but one thing is for sure, at the end of it all both sides had fun working together and against eachother regardless of some questionable thing.
Kind of like art of war, after 32 hours there were some tough times on both sides, but we all played heard and for the most part had slot of fun doing it.
My vote is for 18-48 hours (tho we havent evolved to the 48 stuff quite yet, i can only think of a handfull of guys who could/would do that)
The main problem with milsim today (and i know im not that oldschool, but i did come in at a time when alot of the "old timers" were still around) is that far too many skirmishers sign up not fully aware of what they are in for.

A "milsim" should be long enough to achieve the goals of the scenario Designer. I have found that creating a scenario with defined Missions with discrete time limitations written in permits participants to better manage their energy.

At the just past Operation Woodsman, I had written a 36 hour scenario with 8 discrete Missions. Each Faction , ( there were three, Allied forces , German Forces , Partisans ) had their own missions and Objectives and Timings . Missions were 3-5 hours in duration and had forced rest periods of 2-4 hours between missions. I had no one drop out.

In my opinion this format works very well, it was also employed at our D-Day event organised by Leccas .. and worked very well , That event was 24 hours duration, no one dropped out.

It is a lot more preparation work, Written mission orders have to be prepared in advance. You can also prepare alternate missions depending on the outcome of previous missions.

This format in my opinion creates a context and structure that ensures that units remain cohesive and focused on task. It also prevents events from devolving into an interminable skirmish over the same ground.

Sort of like a choose-your-own-adventure? Go left and this happens, go right and that happens. This was a similar design that I wished to use for a game. Predetermined pathways and obstacles based upon mission outcomes.

Elements of the choose your own adventure can be included, but mostly it's about offering a variety of mission types within the same event.

When I write a scenario I want it to be a cohesive story that is realistic and is immersive.

Some call this kind of thing "roleplaying" but in my opinion this is exactly what military simulation is about. People take on the role of a soldier, and they play that role with as much realism as they can.

This adds to the immersion of everyone

MILSIM, as a term, has become a marketing term for Airsoft events that is now unavoidable. You have to use it otherwise your game is seen as inferior in some respects - the term MILSIM has less to do with creating a military simulation and more to do with being a subtle suggestion that newbies should stay home. It's a simple way of identifying that a game is not meant for people to come out for 8 hours and then leave.

I do not consider the vast majority of games labeled as "MILSIM" to be considered a simulation in any sense of the word. Nightfall is not a MILSIM. Almost every game I have hosted and labeled a MILSIM is not a true MILSIM. Games that have come and gone in years past I would still not label a MILSIM.

The only true Military Simulation I have ever participated in, atleast in my opinion, has been Operation Deadfall. Deadfall typically only attracts the hardcore players, is hosted at a time of year where the weather is usually unforgiving, and the terrain is usually just Canadian woodland. It attracts only the people who want to sit in a hole in the rain for 24 hours. It attracts the people who want to enjoy the suck.

To get to the root of this discussion you have to look at many of the ways things intersect and create the situation we find ourselves in.

First the 18 hour event we have seen the last year and a half or so is simply a business decision as it relates to PRZ. To rent the field for a full 24 hours, to run a game from 2pm on Saturday to 2pm on Sunday, means that the field is taken up for two full days. The field admission fee has to be priced accordingly. When you run a game from 2pm to 8am however, the entire field can be cleared out before Noon. This allows Paintballers to come on the field for Sunday. The price of admission for an Airsoft game is cut in half at the expense of a few hours.

The reason why we find cutting those few hours off beneficial is cause no one used them anyways. You lose 6 hours of game time but for most events by that time the field would be empty. Looking at past games, such as Rhino 1, the game was pretty much dead by that point. There were people on the field in the morning but hundreds had already left. While I woke up in the morning to a couple of gun barrels in my face because the enemy team had infiltrated into our building (and I was sleeping on the field), their infiltration was only possible because our team had no one in the building defending it. It was vacant, aside from me snoring in a random room.

What I have seen happen with the 18 hour events is that people are less inclined to wake up for a morning rush. If everyone fights until 2am in the morning, people are content to retire to their car and sleep. Once they've reclined their seats they don't want to get back up in the morning, even if the team leader is going window to window trying to wake people up. It seems to have created a problem where people just don't want to wake up for a final push right at Sunrise, even though that would be the opportune time to jump back into the game.

PRZ may also suffer from the issue of having the cars too accessible. Any game where the parking lot is easily accessible it creates the desire to just go back to the car. At PRZ usually atleast one of the teams is close enough to the parking lot to just go back to their car for a minute or two. This may also be a factor in people going back to their car. If it's too easy to do so - if the option is there, some may take it. At some of the other 24 hour games played deep in a forest it was harder to retire to your vehicle in the middle of the night, thus people tended to sleep in the field.

Even with all these factors a host can consider and try and plan around - it is still up to the players to stick it out. In this thread people have mentioned that non stop objectives all night help players stick it out, and this may be true, but it's not the only factor. Operation Hot Box, an 18 hour game hosted at PRZ (thus potentially prone to all the problems I have listed above) had an almost 0% attrition rate. Everyone stayed in the game, in the field, slept in the field, and made it until Sunrise. The objectives for that game were pretty simple and did not change for the duration of the event. Yet everyone made it to the end.

I have been to a number of events where the objectives were nonexistent and everyone had a blast. Even at OP NO NODS when the objectives stopped rolling in people still were having a blast throughout the night, but at OP:OP2 I had almost universal feedback that the constant, persistent objectives changing throughout the day made the game exciting and dynamic.

But when I look back at every game I have played at Finches I have usually had a better experience overall. I think this is because those fields aren't sexy. Finches is literally a forest. It's amazing, with varied terrain that change not only across the field but even over the course of the year... But it's not a massive 3 building complex with both interior and exterior terrain to navigate and fight over.

Most players who get into Airsoft do so because they think it's cool. They think the guns are cool, the gear is cool, and they want to play pretend soldier. It's why I got into it. Nothing is more pretend soldier than fighting down hallways and clearing rooms. This is what everyone wants to do. Less people want to go play in the bush. PRZ casts a wide net where everyone wants to play there because of how cool it is even if they aren't physically or mentally prepared to go the distance, but the outdoor venues in the middle of nowhere seem to only attract the people who really, really want to sleep on the field and fight with their friends for a full 24 hours.

Hosts play a huge factor in getting people motivated, but they aren't the other ones who can determine how the event will turn out. A host can make or break a game... But if the players just aren't willing to put in the effort nothing the hosts can do can fix this. Think of how many games where radios, kill rags and glowsticks are all part of the mandatory kit, and how many people just don't show up with them? I have about 7 yards of red fabric I bring to events now that I can cut up and hand out to players without a kill rag (or if someone loses it), but I can't exactly fix them not having a radio. What if they have a radio, but just don't want to work with their team and instead be a lone wolf?

There are a huge, huge number of factors that go into these events and why some make it and some don't. There is no one simple answer. If we are talking about PRZ exclusively, I'd say the sex appeal of the field and the 18 hour events kill it. The field is too irresistible to turn down for a number of people, whether or not they had any intention of going the full 18 hours. When a player realizes that they can keep going until 8 am and have to sleep all Sunday, or go to sleep at 3 am, wake up, drive home, and be in your shower by 2 in the afternoon and still have a Sunday to do whatever with? I've seen a number of people take the second choice - and I have myself on at least two occasions I can remember.

The issue with this discussion is we won't get an answer out of it. There is never the ideal format because people like different stuff. I think the first step in the right direction would be to not call these games MILSIM's and reserve the term for the most hardcore and dedicated events, but that isn't going to happen. Once you stop calling it a MILSIM the players that are attracted to those games that want to go the distance won't come because "it is not a MILSIM." Then all you are left with are the people who won't go the distance, and you end up with a worse problem than the one you started with.

PRZ to me, has lost its luster. I can see it being fun for zombie games, terminator games etc etc. For regular "18+ hour" games its too small, too many bottle necks, cars are too close etc etc...

Delta if you did a game at finches, or any forested field I would be all over that

Finch Field gets my vote

Mission Profile and Player Base are key to a good Milsim.

Time should not matter.

The best Milsim ever was at 10:00 on a Friday night, an hour long with no respawn.

I actually have most of the stuff ready to go for running a game there. Price is all worked out and everything. Just didn't have the time this year to pull the trigger on it :(

Hopefully I can get one revved up and on the road in early spring.

I have yet to go to Finches field (I know, wtf right?) so I'd love to go to a milsim and try that field out.

at Deadfall,... the wind does'nt blow - it Sucks!

That's one thing we should take away from the paintball world, is the differentiation between MilSim and Scenario Events.

Deadfall is happening this weekend, and the weather appears to be cooperating perfectly.
Rain, wind and Cold.

one side is outnumbered 2 to 1, they are out matched in technology, and they have tough objectives. Total and utter failure is a real possibility.

Guys will enter the field Friday evening.. and come out Sunday

For one faction, getting captured means you are out of the event..

There is no 5 minute respawn.. you are recovered by your guys or you are dead for good and out of the event.

you have 300 rounds to last you to Sunday.. there is no more ammo period.

you will eat, shit, sleep in the field Goggles on... there is no "safe zone"

if you come off the field you are done.

is this Milsim?

I'm excited and can't wait.

I can't fuckin sleep I am so excite!

Is this all for real, or an exaggeration? lol. Anyways, in past years how many times has the game lasted until
Sunday? How many players usually attend? This gives me an idea for a game setup.

Looks like RECCE will be used for good in this one before any execution of an attack!

Dress for the weather, sounds challenging, Good luck fellas

This was all real. Check out the AAR. http://airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=167826

It was cold, windy, rainy, hungry and unhappy. One of the best games that I have ever been to, and likely will ever be to.

Recce is still sore and tired from this

Love 18 hour but hate with them ending in the dark. Would like them to end with like a hour after sunrise. Though this is harder for the long distance traveller (me) . So can play 18 s 3 or 4 times a year and 12 s a lot more.

Ressurection post, I see. :P

Either way, I figured I'd weigh in; 18 hours is a nice balanced number; any less and it doesn't have the day-to-night-to-day feel of milsims, and any more and you risk putting players out of commission.

Rather, I think of it in a different light: To start, at Nightfalls 2 and 3, I powered through the full 18 hours, though I took times to take breaks and to pace myself. However, at Nightfall 3, my way of dealing with squad fatigue (of those who didn't bail... o.o) was to hold up in the two-story inside an unlit room with a flag in it, and to let the guys sleep. They set up a metal magazine at the door, designed to tip over at a slight movement. This arrangement let them sleep with confidence, as they didn't have to fret too much of people sneaking in to change the flag, or to attack them unawares. It also allowed them to contribute to the fight while doing absolutely nothing. It's strategy like this that makes 18 hour milsims work, but unfortunately most people's ideas are to sleep at the HQ/spawn in such games, and wait until morning. That usually leads to tears later on.

Most people can't handle type 2 fun and that is why most are lost to the concept.
http://www.backcountry.com/explore/type-ii-fun

MilSim West in the U.S. hosts many 40 hour OPs that go without hitches or hangups with player participation through the entire event. This is because the player participation mixed with a large staff and we'll developed game structure keeps things rolling the entire time.

The biggest problem is in Canadian "MilSim" most people go balls out from game start and burn themselves out by midnight when there might still be 8-12 hours left in the event. Longer events require pacing and well organized structure at a staffing level as well as a command level. Command structures need to be tight to ensure squad rotation is occurring and that their players are not falling to attrition. Forced rest, being properly supplied, using good old team work, and actually doing some real preparation prior to the event is what push the envelope to get people through to the end.

Not to toot the MilSim West horn too much, but they have a required kit list for each team that is given well in advance of the event. On game day they have full kit inspections where you lay all your required gear out for a checklist. People missing these required pieces of equipment/gear simply don't get to play because in the eyes of the game staff they aren't serious enough about doing such a large event if they cannot bring simple things on a list to last them the event. It is a time consuming process, but they have a good staff and they feel it is necessary to ensure they are only letting the truly committed players into the event. I think more stern guidelines like this would at least help eliminate the not so serious players from clogging up a limited roster for an event leaving room for the serious MilSim players to get those spots. Obviously for MSW, they have a very large game staff, the event is much more expensive than the $50-65 events commonplace in Canada, and as such they can afford to have an elitist attitude in requiring these items from each player while supplying everyone with counted, limited ammo as well as MREs and water. While I don't expect any MilSim events north of the border to supply food and comforts to everyone, I think having a list of required kit that each player must have on game day or they cannot play is a start at getting people in the right mind set for these events.

People might say that is elitist, but if we are talking MilSim, that is the elite version of airsoft events, meant for the "elite" players trying to put their skills and endurance to the test. This is not to say that a serious player who has never done a MilSim and wants to try one cannot attend. This is simply a good way at ensuring those newcomers to MilSim know what they 100% must have on game day, as well as what to expect.

Some here may be aware of the Deadfall events Brian here on the forums puts on every fall. Thus last event basically started on Friday evening at about 10pm and ended at 3am on Sunday morning. This event had a small number of players, however nobody dropped out of the event at all. Not one person. The only reason the game did not go until 10am on Sunday is because of the terrible weather and temperatures putting several players in pre-hypothermic states, and this was not due to unpreparedness, simply due to the very harsh elements everyone was playing in, being the beginning of October in eastern Ontario not that far from Lake Ontario. This event saw a tightly ran command structure that ensured the preparedness of every player well in advance of the event, and the event structure was not set around "run at the enemy, shoot some people, die, respawn, start over", it was designed around true MilSim with patrols, skulking through dense brush ten feet per minute, and use of Recon elements that were literally in the field in the pouring rain for extended periods of time. BUT, everyone was prepared for this well in advance and designed their kit around their specific roles, which is something that people just don't seem willing to do in other events. As such this event set the bar much higher in my eyes for the potential of MilSim.

It's the player attitude and preparedness, or lack thereof, that causes long events to fall apart, not the length of the event itself. Sorry, it's just the truth.

^ good post.

lots of good points have already been touched on in this thread. Id like to point out another one.

Alot of players wear too much gear. Theyre running around with 20lbs of stuff that they dont need to be wearing all the time, and are worn out too early.

Gear down, last longer. Every oz adds up.

I've got a couple of plate carriers that I love the look of, but I know I can stretch my endurance with a RRV instead. When Im building my gun, I go as light as possible for the same reason.

^ Good post about the good post.

This.

Zack and Crom, I totally agree, but I have some additions people need to remember. Being up in Canada I have witnessed more than a few attitudes and behaviours in our airsoft community that are commonplace in our society. They make it really difficult to host one of these games seriously.

First off, let's talk about elitism. Elitism is an attitude and a way of being, not specific set of instructions or dynamics. For example, just because something discludes someone from attending and event, or something doesn't cater to them, doesn't mean it's elitist. People have to remember that YOU are strictly YOUR problem, nobody owes you shit. Example; you and your friends are planning a trip up Everest, so your friend in a wheelchair calls you an elitist... See the issue? First off all, it's impossible to understand how frusterating his life may be, but that's more of a reason to live life to the fullest while you have the use of your legs and not to live your life for someone else. So, here's how it effects airsoft; you plan a game set around 'x' area, with 'x' gear requirements, and 'x' timeframe, etc. Now someone who doesn't have the budget, the required gear, the time, the physical fitness level, or doesn't like that type of play style, calling you an elitist. Same shit! They can't do it or don't want to, therefore you're an elitist. Right? Wrong, so wrong. People need to be prepared and follow the rules, end of discussion. Elite and elitism are two different things. Could you imagine a reservist calling a special forces member and elitist because they passed the training, but he couldn't for whatever reason? No I can't either.

There are Milsims out there that last over a week. Of course there are rest periods and food, etc, but it's like this; after a few hours of sleep, you get your sorry ass up, slog on your cold and wet gear, eat some shitty food quick, then get back out there and kick ass all day, rinse and repeat. Don't go to an event if you aren't planning on pushing through the whole time. No it isn't okay to find an excuse. I'm tired, I'm hungry, I'm sore, I'm bored, I'm wet, etc, don't cut it. Barring injury or extreme weather conditions, it's pretty much go go go. I've seen extreme rain storms destroy a game, I've also seen them just make players hunker down for a bit to wait it out, but the best is when one squad puts on their ponchos to keep their gun and upper body fairly dry, then hits the other team using the storm as a surprise attack.

Let's talk about gear now. I don't really care what you're into, but if I had some advice for you it'd be to purchase gear that fits you and effectively works for what you're doing, which is airsoft. It's great that you want to look like a Marine or whatever, but those guys wear heavy gear, for long long periods, in forty plus degrees of heat, with a full bladder, real ammo and ballistic plates. You don't even have one percent of the training, at least likely. Even if you are physically fit, you're still going to go way longer and be more effective with proper gear over what looks cool to you. My old airsoft load-out was over sixty pounds fully loaded with ammo and water, etc. I could wear that for twenty-four hours straight standing on my head. Ya know what though? Now I can go longer and be more effective with lighter, better gear. Buy yourself proper gear and get your ass in shape. Endurance games are for athletes and those with strong will, that's the whole point. Push on through or be a little bitch. There's always day skirmishes abd there nothing wrong with that. This doesn't mean that you want to buy flimsy crap, but it does mean that you will have to carry all of your ammo, food, water, equipment, etc, and you should carry it intelligently. You don't need to be carrying anything that isn't necessary. As stated above, every ounce adds up. You need three liters of water and rain gear, you don't need two pistols, a sniper rifle, a ruck sack full of God-knows-what, etc. You may be thinking now that "hey! Maybe I should go and get one of those tactical diapers, that'd solve my weight issues, right?". Wrong! Here's a base list of what you MAY need at an endurance game; a reliable gun plus enough batteries, gas, ammo, not to mention optics, magazines, etc, to get you through. Also a reliable secondary in case you find yourself going into a small structure or in an extremely close range engagement. You'll need enough meals to get you through the alotted time. Remember you burn more fuel when your playing than just day to day, and you need to stay fueled. Water is heavy and you should carry at least a few liters, with a plan to refill several times. Stay hydrated. You'll likely need a map of the area, a flashlight, NVGs if you have them, rain or a cold layer, quality BDUs and boots, your rig and your sub-load, a hat to protect your head and neck, radio and comms equipment, a first aid kit, maybe even a helmet, your eyewear, a sling, etc, etc, etc, etc. It will all add up to being heavy, so your gear needs to carry it comfortably and intelligently as possible.

No game goes off without a few hitches, especially the more players you have. It's up to the players to assist the host in keeping things running smoothly and getting the game back on track. If you don't play with sportsmanship and integrity, then things will go south. If you give up easily at the first sign of adversity, then things will go south. If all the players, admins, game hosts, etc, don't do everything reasonable to work together, then things will go south. Full stop, period! I've been to so many games where players quit early, but what you have to remember is doing that unbalances the teams severely. No one likes getting their butts whooped, and more often than not this causes players to quit. If one team can't regroup and work together, they are dead in the water. I've been to games where the enemy team numbered over one-hundred players and they were boxed into a tiny area, surrounded on all sides. All of their respawns and CCPs had lineups at them, and if they let go of the rope or took off their dead rag, they instantly got shot by about ten or twenty of the one hundred plus guys that had them surrounded. The game was over, no if's, and's, or but's. So what did they do? Did they bitch out? Did they quit? Did they throw a tantrum? Nope! They surrendered. We all went back to the safe area shaking hands and congratulating both teams, we had laughs and told stories, and the admins reworked the game. We all got back out there and had at 'er again, the other team with renewed command and doubled effort. I've been to games where one teams numbers doubled or more the other team, and a bunch of their players quit because they couldn't get organized. The smaller team kicked the hell out of them most of the time. So strong command and comms are hugely important at large games. That being said, I don't think anyone should be allowed to attend one of these games without a reliable radio and quality headset. Not only is clear comms essential to team success, but for tracking down lost players and basic safety. Remember, if you're playing for 'x' number of hours, then you need 'x' number of hours of batteries to last the whole thing.

Games up here are not actually that strict, but people still bitch about the little things. One game organizer tried to throw a game that was MULTICAM versus woodland. All that had to match were your arms and legs, so teams would be easily identifiable. There was so much bitching on the forums it was ridiculous. If it's not for you, then don't go. Don't nag at a game host because they are not catering to you directly. Strict gear requirements are commonplace elsewhere. Also they're probably one of the best ways to ensure game efficiency. Personally I'd love to have gear inspections before heading out onto the field. I think a lot of this stems from two areas. Firstly, we don't have the population, so getting enough true and interested people to attend and stick it out is harder. Secondly is this attitude of entitlement that people get. You're told all your life that your opinions matter, that you're special, your schools aren't allowed to fail you anymore, etc, etc, etc. Then once you get out into the real world it isn't actually like that. Grow the fuck up! You're only entitled to have an opinion, it doesn't make it valid. It's your own personal responsibility to prepare mentally, physically and have the appropriate gear for a sim, no one is making easier just for you, Ya little bitch. No one can make you go, so if it's not for you keep your teeth together. Moaning about how you shouldn't have to carry a radio, how you shouldn't have to buy specific camo, or how a game bans or limits high-caps makes you look like a big baby. It does not however, even in the slightest, make the organizer and attending players elitist.

The length of a game is totally irrelevant, from one minute to a month straight. If you're unpreparec or unwilling, it isn't for you, period. This is why so many of the better games are going to invite only. Only players who are willing to put out the bare minimum get invited back. This is also why so many large scale events turn into train wrecks. All of the bitchers, cheaters, quitters, chair-softers, etc. Take all of those players, stuff then into a cannon and fire them at a stone wall, at close range...

Mind set, attitude and intent has a huge impact on the games flow as well. I know myself, Brian and many others have pointed this out several times; airsoft is technically anything that involves an airsoft gun. Airsoft is a very loosely used term, kind of like milsim, but much worse. When someone says "airsoft" what do you picture? Well whatever it is, it's different than the guy next to you. Just because it involves airsoft guns and shooting only means they have a few similarities, not that they are the least bit the same. Let me explain. Some players want to do a role-playing kind of thing or LARP thing, for others it stops at dressing like a Navy SEAL, or pretending that they are a soldier. For others it's personal interest, they dress like its World War 2 or Vietnam, sometimes for flavor and sometimes for reinactment. Many like to break down boundaries and get into the Sci-Fi or fantasy thing, they'll go completely off the wall, or will copy their favorite movie or video game characters, dressing like a character from Halo or something. The most common group stick to the Call of Duty or moderm military stuff, etc. Not all of these groups comingle well, because even though they appear to be doing the same thing, they really aren't. If your mindset is too far gone, it can mess with the flow or the intent of the game. Some groups meld together seamlessly, like Call of Duty players and the modern military players, etc. Well usually anyways. There are even events that are totally open to all, and it doesn't matter how you play or dress. Here's another example; I'm at a game with just over a hundred players a few years back. Everyone there is decked out in modern military gear for one reason or another, except a few guys who are just starting out, so their gear isn't quite there yet. No big deal though, it's only a six hour game, so you really only need a reliable gun, ammo, proper eyewear and footwear, etc. Anyways, it's a sea of Modern-ish military and related. During the safety speech this guy holds up a giant broadsword and asks "can I use this!?". He may as well have been wearing a red clown suit and expecting to prance around the field slapping people with a huge a dildo. Everyone was stunned, like "really dude!?". He's there to be He-Man or Conan or something, not to compete against like minded players. I myself, along with many others view airsoft as a tactical, squad based sport. I use gear and equipment that is engineered for wat I'm specifically doing and that'll help me win, while being an effective squad member. Now while the best gear is modern military gear, and of course we enjoy the realism aspect, we don't want it over effectiveness. I could care less if the SEALs or Rangers wear the same thing. I want my gear and the players in my squad to be technical, efficient, tactically sound, etc. If you look like you are ready to storm the beaches of Normandy, or like you're going to chase the Covenant out of Earth space, you are not these things. There's nothing wrong with what your doing, but it's not the same thing and therefore should be done elsewhere with people of the same mindset, as o have done. The fact that we both use airsoft guns, at least to me, is as similar as a pro soccer player being the same as someone in a business meeting because they both wear shoes. So, no matter what your personal idiosyncrasies are, or what you believe, you must be in the right headspace for the right game or sim. Attitude and intent are everything.

Gonna run out of clap.gifs for you Zach.

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-conten...d_clapping.gif