Airsoft Insurance and new standards in 2013
 

We have recently completed our 2013 paintball/Airsoft Insurance application for The Adrenaline outdoor park and Indoor tactical arena and noticed some alarming new clauses; I'd like to talk to other operators of fields and people in the Industry that New Airsoft Standards my affect.

These changes could drastically affect Organized Airsoft play across Canada.

gmuscutt@gmail.com
519 476 7732

Care to explain how it would affect organized play?

why keep it between field operators? why not share with the airsoft community?

But disorganized play is still okay?

Seriously though, what changes are you talking about? Having a discussion between field operators is fine and all, but unless it is secret squirrel stuff why not spill the beans. We may not all be field operators but we all have an insight (some more than others).

It would be nice if you cared to explain the clauses that will "drastically affect Organized Airsoft play across Canada" Kind of a serious thing to say with no explanations.

I wonder..... maybe there is a new clause that says "if anyone gets hit with a small, 6mm BB at anytime while at your facility, they will not be covered, and subsequently the injured party along with ourselves (insurance company) will sue you till your bankrupt"

Seen posts on Facebook by a pretty reliable source with rumors of mouth protection requirements. No further info.

Also clear lowers, fps to 350.

thank god for private fields

fps to 350 I get, but requiring people to have clear lowers...thats an odd one. I don't see how clear lowers will make the game any more/less dangerous OP. we meed your input on exactly what your talking about!

It was part of the rewrite in the clause to have only have guns with clear lowers, and fps to 350, along with mandatory face protection. Again I have not seen the actual document this is from a reliable source on a facebook thread

We need this reliable source, or the OP to come back and explain him self!

if it goes through all paintball fields can say goodbye to airsofters....no way in hell did i spend this much money just to have to go to clearsoft....

Private fields it is!

In what stupid way would the color of a gun could affect an insurance claim?...Ah yes...The way that it gives them another reason not to pay.

I don't mind the 350 fps since that's the same fps most paintball fields are required to enforce on markers. But come on if they are going to try to sneak in clear lowers even if its not required by law, then they have to do the same to paintball markers especially the more realistic markers. It doesn't really make sense cause all they are going to do is drive away customers of their insures and well they will lose money when policy holders drop the airsoft clauses when their airsoft business tanks.

More APB bullshit. Not suprised.

yeah thats what i looks like more bullshit

Also, OP's title does state "new standards", but is there such a thing in which all insurance cies will agree on like this? I mean, what 1 company would ask for might not be what the other would, isn't it?

I'm not claiming understanding the insurance world, hence the question, but I'd find that collusion or something.

Anyways, I don't think we have to worry too much about those, regardless of what's true and what's not... Most fields are private... It really is sad (if true) for those business that will loose tons of customers though...

I'm not to worried. These "alarming new clauses" will not affect our games at Flagswipe. This sounds more like it's APB's insurance provider.

K&K Underwriters is the company that's trying all these changes.... Southwest and at least one other company are not following suit.

There is no more airsoft at Soldier of Fortune Paintball now.

When that was made public, many said that was a one off---nothing to see. The reason given was insurance was no longer covering them for Airsoft.

Paintball and Airsoft are 2 different animals with different risks, safety requirements and even age categories.

I often wondered how the 2 can be played out in the same venue and covered under the same insurance- being so different.

How there could be a pizza party for 30 kids (14 years olds) in the staging area, next to guys gearing up for an airsoft game? On the same field.


But no difference to me....our field is Airsoft only.

Private.

APB must have a shitty insurance provider lol if flagswipe (located in london) is not effected by this, it must have been something to do with APB and them alone.

I found this hilarious because it seems to just be more stupid crap from APB. I highly doubt the airsoft community will feel much effect, the paintball fields might, but I've noticed a large climb in private fields, which people thoroughly enjoy.

Lol clear lowwers. Cmon folks. Worst case will be 350fps and full face protection. Plus who gives a crap most of us prefer to play at airsoft only/private fields to avoid paint (and paintballers, most of em anyhow) all together it just means places like finch's field the hill, warsoft nation and the barrie guys will see a bigger intrest in their fields.
350 for outdoor would suck. Especially for guys like me who run 500fps bolt actions but again ill just avoid the one paintball field i do go to and spend more time at finch's and WSN problem solved.

What a fucking retarded thread. Why does he keep posting his drama here?

I do not know. I also dont understand why he would not just share the info outright. I mean isnt a forum like this intended to be a poace for sharing info as opposed to bein all like "guess what hapoened, no not that keep guessing...." kind of ghey if ya ask me. But wht do i know lol.

+1

I don't want to hear the flaming so save it. But this does come down to common sense. Below is a standard waiver. This waiver is like most and the corner stone of making sure the insurance company or the sponsor does not have a risk if a being sued. At the end of the day that is all that matters for either, and the insurance company is not in the business of providing a service or charity. Its to make money.

So the below is the beginning of the legal agreement you are making with a paintball place. This is the form presented to you, and as such you are agreeing to assume the risks inherent with the sport. If you, A) have never played, or B) a parent dropping off the kid---same form.

Where do you see, "at some point there might be guys playing airsoft, a totally different game on the filed, in the safe zone etc--but all good don't worry"


Nowhere.


ASSUMPTION OF RISKS
1) I the undersigned wish to play paintball. I recognise and understand that playing paintball (hereinafter called the
“Game”) involves certain risks. Those risks include but are not limited to, the risk of injury resulting from possible
malfunction of the equipment, used in the Game and injuries resulting from tripping or falling over obstacles in the
Game playing field. In addition, I recognise that the exertion of playing the game could result in injury or death.2) Despite these and other risks, and fully understanding such risks, I wish to play the Game and hereby assume the
risks of playing the Game. I also hereby hold harmless the “Sponsors” and indemnify them against any and all
claims, actions, suits, procedures, costs, expenses (including legal fees and expenses) damages and liabilities arising
out of, connected with, or resulting from my playing the Game, including, without limitation, those resulting from
the manufacture, selection, deliver, possession, use or operation of any and all equipment used in the Game. I hereby
release the sponsors from any and all such liability, and I understand that this release shall be binding upon my
estate, my heirs, my representatives and assigns. I hereby certify to the Sponsors that I am in good health and do not
suffer from a heart condition or any other aliment which could be exacerbated by the exertion involved in playing
the Game. I further certify that I am 18 years of age or older.

Id like to hear more from the OP about this.. Coming from someone who no longer plays but still likes to be involved in Airsoft community this "new insurance" will loose a ton of business to business's that run Airsoft. Not cause of the new FPS of 350 but to have a clear lower? I honestly don't get what a clear lower has to do with insurance, lol. Well least the private fields will get more business and new fields will open cause of this.

Maybe this thread should be renamed: Adrenaline Paintball Airsoft Restrictions 2013

When I called the cops on my own field (twice) to make sure we were ok, the very first question the cops asked was proximity to the road.

"so, you guys are all geared up etc etc with the steel, how far are you from the road"? (he asked)

Very first question he had. When I replied well over 1000 feet in, complete out of public view, he was right on board and his tone changed from questioning to mild interest.

I am sure this has something to do with it.

All in all, until this is clarified by actual fact from 1st degree people in the know, this all is just rumours.

Having a contact in the know does not make 1st degree either;

As someone said, why bringing this here without giving actual details etc?
The more this goes, te more it sounds like a BS attempt at poliics stirrin things in whatever obscure direction, for reasons we have yet to know; if this is the case, the question is: how does sayin this profits to, and how?

'Nyways, I know I'll continue to shoot BBs all summer :P

Law enforcement and Insurance are two *completely* different matters; not sure why bringing this, unless you think there's correlation between the two?

I pm'ed you my response to keep that off the General.

Hmm well still more business for the private fields with little to no public view.

Why do people keep bringing up the clear lowwers lol. Thats just someone speculating and we can all be almost certian that would not be implemented for any reason. The only things that could/may change would be safety related like face protection fps limits or perhaps even bb weight limits. Eithet way if some things do change its only a matter of people complaining (policy holders that is) about say lower fps limits and providing good reason/arguements as to why a higher limit is acceptable (ie a paintball at 350fps has far more energy then an airsoft bb traveling the same velocity)
And again without the OP sharing this major change that is gonna effect airsoft its all a bunch of BS we dont hear flagraiders suggesting there will be changes to the rules regarding airsoft played on PB fields and other fields that are either private and dont even carry insureance. Or other fields who operate with special events insureance as opposed to PB/airsoft insureance wouldnt be effected by this anyhow.
Perhaps the OP eithet A. Had a crappy insureance company or B. Has had too many claims over the same crap (ie missing teeth. Broken ankles or knees (due to a poorly maintained field or some crap) or too many soccer moms claiming injuries for their kids for the above stuff.
Or even more so it couod be a case of minors somehow getting admited without their actuall parent or guardian signing the waiver then said parrent tryin to sue for something. In that case they may require the parent to actually remain at the field or even play as well (not a problem for airsoft ad most of us dont let minors on the field without parents anyhow)

Either way as long as the OP feels his info is too valueable to share with those that it will effect most then we wont know what the big deal is.
So speak up AG share your secret with us so we can stop playin guessing games

Maybe it's just the altitude, but...

34 posts in and I still have no fucking clue what is going on.

Is the sky falling again?

Something like that.

The Sky is not falling nor is it going to fall. It's just someone(the OP) stirring the shit.

can't we just ban AdrenalineGuy......... and bring balance to the Force?

seriously, this shit needs to be put to bed once and for all

he who stirs the shit
must lick the spoon

Well said.. Shit.

Sorry to get this started and not be able to be by the computer for awhile to contribute.

For the first time in 13 years we got a new application for Insurance for both paintball and Airsoft this year.

The following were the Airsoft rules

Air-Soft Rules and Regulations
1. Outdoor air-soft velocity not to exceed 350 ft/s which allows for a .20 to .22 BB (1 to 1.5 joule)

2. Indoor air-soft velocity not to exceed 285 to 300 ft/s. which allows for a .20 BB (1 joule)

3. Keeping in mind the velocity of no higher then 350 ft/s for outdoor and 300 ft/s for indoor, regulation goggles, including balaclava or full face masks must be worn at all times while in the gaming area.

4. Preference is for all players to use only facility approved and owned air-soft guns and pellets. In the event participants are allowed to use their own guns (clear plastic only, Air guns that are firearms for purposes of both the Firearms Act and the Criminal Code are prohibited) the facility must check all non owned air-soft guns to assure that they adhere to the velocity restrictions and are not rigged with larger springs, to obtain higher velocities. Only approved pellets supplied by the facility will be allowed.

5. Absolute Minimum age to play is 16 and any player 16 or 17 years of age must have a parent or legal guardian present. All players must present valid ID. Photo portion and Date of Birth required.

6. Waivers must be signed by all participants and if under 18 must also be signed by a parent or legal guardian. We must have written confirmation from the insured, that these rules and regulations will be part of their Air-Soft operation.


We were very concerned to see them be so outdated. Some what unsafe and certainly un-usable. We could not make a business work around this rules set.

I post this for a few reasons.
1 To look to network with other operators for solutions
2.to show how fragile our young sport/industry is
3. to help highlight the need for an |Industry association to help deal with things like this as the sport/industry grows.

There is no spoon.

I have a spork I can sell you however.

Well I guess you have special insurance requirements to account for the "MOBBS" factor

so its just YOUR insurance that changed how in the flying fuck is that going to change for all of canada.....

and gunk i could use a spork =p haha

there is no amount of insurance to protect against MOBBS,....
in addition,... there is no way in hell Adrenalinguy typed the response, as it is both free of spelling and grammer errors

I posted this in ASC.. Because this is where most serious Airsofters stay connected.

Like me or not I am in the know, the information I share is very important and real.

Get ready to flame away boys..

Here is why the insurance rules are important to private field owners.
when someone gets hurt. and they loos their livley hood, and the only way they can keep their family home is to sue.

The judge looks at the Industry Standards (Insurance standards) to decide if the land owner and or game operators were negligent. If they were NO WAIVER WILL SAVE THEM.

So If the Insurance standard says 350 fps out doors and the land owner allows 400 then that's the same as allowing people to play on his property knowing it is not safe.

Before you jump to conclusions about my motives. We could have got an exemption for our own operation and said screw everyone else... What I have posted here was to help THE WHOLE INDUSTRY private and public.

If you have a problem with me I am really easy to find...

if you get hurt playing airsoft....its YOUR fault im sorry not the fucking owner/hosts fault airsoft is a common sense sport.....should i try and run through this area filled with holes....if you answer is yes and you sprain your ankle....well sorry bud your dumbass deserved it.

i play at private fields mostly with the exception to flagswipe and hell if you get hurt at lets say finchs field and you try and sue them you head deserves a fucking smack they warn of of all the dangers and aswell they are clearly marked with caution tape

and me a problem with you.....well if you count leaving threats on my friends voice mail all because he hosted a game the same day you were then yeah i have a problem with you

Again,

Soldier of Fortune Paintball no longer has Airsoft as the insurance will not cover it. That came out in March.

That is a great field and is too bad. They had as many as 60 guys playing on that field sometimes. Keep in mind people were playing at SOF when a paintball player wouldn't be caught dead on that field.

(FREE MONEY)

The is not sky falling, but its clearly NOT specific to Adrenalin Paint Ball.

If you think this is bull shit, call SOF and ask to book a game.

Either way I don't care. I just found this interesting as this is the second place I heard this happening to in 6 months.

oh i am not disagreeing with you on that but the OP stated ALL OF CANADA WILL CHANGE.....well that is bullshit with flagswipe which is in the same area as APB is not affected nor will be affected by this change.....

Well AG's insureance company is the issue then so we all have nothin to really worry about. Perhaps he should look into getting insured elsewhere.
That said lotta folks have their odd rules. One place i play will not allow above 500fps because the local cops are dumb and cant interprate the laws correctly and figure because it shoots 500fps the criminal code says its a firearm. But its fine to use a heavier bb to bring it below 500 then its not a firearm. (i know its not insureance related just sayin some folks are just dumb. Not sayin AG is dumb but his insureance company is retarded)

someone needs to start their own airsoft insurance company lol problem solved =p

the OP said "These changes could drastically affect Organized Airsoft play across Canada"

if your going to flame,,, be right.

sooo what flagswipe is not in canada nor is it organized???

flagswipe as already told us this will not effect our game on the 21st

"Just a quick update. I have spoken to the ppl at Flagswipe and this insurance stuff that Greg is talking about, the clear receivers/350FPS, WILL NOT effect games at flagswipe."

copy and pasted from fb group so again how am i wrong.....you insurance is shit go cry somewhere else.

to sum up the story if you run a field in canada.....don't use the same insurance company as adrenaline......

There are (Edit to 3 That I know of) companies that insure Paintball and Airsoft in Canada.

Southwestern does a ton and they have just recently. "looked at Airsoft" I believe that this new standard likely came from Europe.

Sports Can is still running the same way with the same old application.

k&K underwriters



Scratching head he says........ If one of only 2 companies adopts a new rule set that changes the standard so much.... is it not of interest to the industry.

This is an Interesting Hugely Important thread to this community guys... WTF is all the flaming and name calling about. get real.

paintball created associations years ago to be at the for front of setting their own standards. so have may other sports and professions as well.

If some of you wana throw poo go do it some where else. this is imporant

right there PAINTBALL........this is airsoft things are different.....sure we shoot 400fps at .20 but then again we are shooting a 6MM bb that weights from .20-.43(heaviest ive seen) paintballs are obviously bigger/heavier and should be shot at a lower fps but hell i wouldnt even mind lowering it to 350.....but why the fuck do we need to use clear lowers.....if we have to why wont paintball guns aswell....shit some of them look just as realistic as airsoft guns do these days

what most of us want is a reason behind the clear lower bullshit how would that make it a "safer" sport.....all sports have risks. for christ sakes you dont see hockey arenas putting foam padding on the boards.....

Ya totally not true.

I can enlighten you on waivers if you wish, but it seems like you are set on this.

For example, did you know if you are a host and you know a group of guys are getting stoned before the game all the waivers are null and void and so is your insurance for that event? Set a pattern, like "ya that place is totally ok to get baked", and ya...all insurance is gone. They just wont tell you till you need to make a claim.

Trust me on this one. If you are crystal clear on the waiver and you don't have bull shit going on, like airsoft and paintball mixing on a location, its air tight.

The issue here is paintball and airsoft are mixing on the premises and the insurance company is putting that under a microscope.

Does your waiver inform the said paintball player there is airsoft going on in the same place?

Free game at my place says....Nope. Bet it says you are agreeing to play "paintball" and the associated risks with that game.
(I am not agreeing to be shot in the back of the head my a500 FPS sniper rifle from a game that got off course.)

So right there the waiver the person signed is not informing them of basic risks.

We are not talking a peanut allergy here.

And how do they come up with theese numbers. An average paintball weigs what like 3grams or so? The field limit is what 350 for PB? Lets be safe and say its 300 cause i forget and lets say a paintball weighs 2.5grams incase there are some light weight balls or some crap. Thats almost 10.5joules of energy. Why should airsoft be limited to 1.5joules if paintball is 10plus. Its a simple arguement to pose to the insureance company. That and the two facts that A. Most guns sold in canada fire over 366 and B. Most are now full black.
How can they expect us to abide by those rules...

ding ding ding we have a winner.......

this is what happens when someone who knows fuck all about something tries to write rules/laws/guide lines/ what ever in the fuck this bull shit is

Paintball runs usually 250 or 300 (outdoors). (Indoors) would be 210 to 230 or so.

This thread is just a huge trollolllololl from the OP.

Most Paintball fields have Man FPS set at about 280 with a standard Paintball.

When I was at flagraiders for the milsim training day. The host from there warned us about something liek this. That their inrusance company was trying to get them to get rid of airsoft unless. People wore full paintball masks. And had a clear gun.

In no way to get flamed but that is what the guy running flagraiders said to us str8 up when we were gonig onto the field.

Way to take shit out of context. Edit what i wrote to make it seem like i was calling you a name when i specifically made sure to point out i was not calling you any names and was directing it at your insureance company. Well guess what now i do believe you sir are an asshole. Have a nice day. Good luck getting airsofters to follow the rules you insureance company is trying to make you follow. Try showing them some simple facts (like those in my previous post)
Im sure just because they are trying something new doesnt mean they are not open to suggestion from their customers. Especially if facts go to show that even at 700 or 800 fps and airsoft bb is still far safer to be hit with then a paintball.
Again thanks for twisting my words trying to make me out to be an asshole so now ill say it so you dont gotta twist my words. Adrenalineguy and his company are retarded.

hectic just won this thread.....

I am very aware of the limitations of the waiver. lol..


I originally posted asking for Other operator and industry people to network with about an important change. Again sorry i was away from the computer for the day.

I have spent the day talking to other business operators, Insurance people and even concerned players, so the original post was some benefit.. It is good to know that this is being taken seriously by many in the community

If you your interested in Important Industry Information,, maybe this isn't the place to discuss it. That's unfortunate.

I continue to believe that 95 % of ASC'ers are great people. They just don't post much ...

peace

well maybe next time when YOUR insurance gets all fucky dont think it means airsoft play across canada will change....cause it has not/ wont change even in the same city as you

So the loophole I see in the insurance quote is they are referencing Air-Soft, I personally play Airsoft no "-" included, wonder what sport they are referring to?

Yes! Yes! Case closed. Moving on!

http://i.imgur.com/NAk6C.gif

And whats with the. .20 to 22 1to1.5joules? 400fps on a. 20 is 1.5 joules so according to their own rules 400fps is fine outdoors.
Or 385 on a. 22 (where do we even get a 22. Ive seen 23 but not 22)

I seen this before it was more than one page, check it tonight and face palmed. I guess hollywood... is right, thanks for the entertainment :) Southern Alberta is a bouquet of private fields :)

you hit it.

The rules from Southwestern are not only out of date but the details between weights and joules isn't correct.

It does say allowing for a.

We have the application from Sport can coming in tomorrow. 3 years ago it was still very simple, as was South Western's.

I find this deliciously ironic. As this is put under a microscope for "risk" and "waivers"


In the middle of a battle on my field, if the wind is very low, and there is a lull in the game you will often hear a faint...


".......fffffloooop".........


Followed by a .........."WOOOOOOO"!!!!!!!

Most guys who have never been will look around wondering what the fuck that was.

It was a plane dropping people off right over our filed and the sound of a parachute opening up.....followed by that scream.

(no you cant shoot them---to high by a mile or so)

ALL DAY

....Risk....chya....

It's like someone wrote coherent sentences and paragraphs and then a tornado came along and generated 27 unrelated parallel discussions about different things.

This is going to be the thread where the community consensus around the latest plot twist in insurance around our sport will develop?

We're boned. :)

Well this degenerated quickly.

Worst thread ever. Retards flaming each other rather than discussing real information in a relevant manner.


Joe at Flagraiders was indeed talking about something like this. Federal and provincial laws, and the contractual stipulations from an insurance policy are two completely different things. If your car insurance policy stipulates you never drive over 60kph, or have to wear a pink tutu when you drive.. guess what.. They are well within their rights to not honor a claim should you fail to meet those conditions.

In our ridiculous sue happy society where someone can hurt themselves and prove negligence easily, owners need to protect themselves with insurance. Even a private field owner could get sued and be fucked, waiver or not. The real solution here if insurance companies are going to start making stupid policies like "clear lowers" (which has no bearing on possible injuries) is to go to the competition and shop around. You could also try to negotiate the terms of insurance and remove those stipulations. I am not a legal expert by any means but saying "this is stupid if you get hurts its your fault" means nothing as far as law is concerned.