Quick draw on Open Class weapons? Any suggestions?
 

Hey guys,

Just wanted to get some input on some quickdraw techniques from an holstered position specifically in an open class shooting competing and in-game where you have a primary drawn but need to switch to the secondary pistol.

Suggested stances?
Suggested trigger pull weight?
Suggested holster?
Fast target acquisition techniques?
Cmore/MRDS vs iron sights?
Wrist rotation techniques?
Breathing techniques?
etc...

I timed myself last night with an average of about 2.5seconds on a REACTIVE side as opposed to being the instigator (<==the guy who shoots first). And I can't get any faster at it. I've been doing some exercises over the past couple of weeks of target acquisition and wrist techniques with Glocks and 1911 with various sight pictures and I can't break the 2.5 mark. Shot accuracy is fairly consistent but I can still fine tune my gun with a few upgrades.

I suppose in a Shooting competition your always on the reactive-quick-to-the-gun side but in a game where your primary fails (hypothetically speaking) and your opponent has a bead on you first and puts you in a reactive state, what techniques do you employ for a fast draw?

I'm running one of those taco holsters with Glocks and open-class basic 1911.

Any suggestions?

Use a one point sling with your primary.
When you need to draw, drop or throw your primary to your side and draw your pistol.
Snap shoot, do not aim. This means aiming down the gun/slide and instinctively aiming, as opposed to finding sights first. At least for the first few shots. You'll be much faster that way.

Did you watch this? http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=146319


My opinion here is all in the field with a holster that has retention and protection over speed. On the 226 I run a Serpa. On the Glock I run a Crye copy. No tips on the IPSC cowboy stuff.

I like a holster on my chest. If you can visualize your arms as you're holding your primary and its going to go dry or just stops you just drop the primary. If it's on a one point set it to drop to the weak side, but I prefer a 2-point for this myself unless it's a tiny PDW.

So you've released the weapon but your hands are still up, as soon as it's dropped clear you bring your strong hand to your chest and grasp the pistol.

I draw and go for 2-handed with a crushing grip and start shooting when I get a flash of things lining up. I shoot with both eyes open, cross eye dominant in what is usually called the Quell stance. I will vary that by conditions and situations.

I like the idea of RDS sights on pistols but I think they're not ready yet in the world of airsoft. The IPSC stuff is too fragile for me.

The way to get good at shooting a pistol is to shoot a lot. A couple hours a day if you can. The good news about that is from people who know; if you get good with a pistol some of those skills will transfer up and improve your rifle shooting.

Regardless of transitioning from primary or just a draw, the technique should not vary aside from moving away from the primary. The difference is in a transition the support hand is dropping/throwing the primary away from your work space and shooting hand going for the holster and gun. Depends on the urgency you might have to start from one handed shooting. Regardless though the drawing to aiming phase should be very similar. As soon as the pistol left the holster the muzzle should be forward and for me its coming up to my center mass and punch forward to your work space. I think for some teaching defensive shooting if the target is close enough to be an immediate threat they would actually start firing(while backing away from the target) as soon as the muzzle is pointed down range, then as they draw away from the threat they go to a proper shooting stance. If you are not transitioning, the support hand will meet the weapon as it get to the work space...Pistol shooting needs lots of practice and muscle memory and you need to work on sight acquisition....also note shooting RDS like a C-more to shooting iron sight there is going to be a difference in the sight plane. Slide mounted RMR/Docter sight is start to get more popular, and they have less of a difference in sight plane...

EDIT:
This is mainly from a hip holster mounted on the shooting hand side, should be relatively similar to dropleg. My IPSC rig to regular belt rig are both hip mounted, with the IPSC rig extend down a bit more as its made for a 7" open Hi-Capa.

PRACTICE, whatever you do you'll need to practice it, allot. You could be using the best technique ever but the guy next to you with no real technique but much more practice doing it his inefficient way will be much faster than you.

I'm one of the quicker draws with pistols of everybody I play with, I always use sights too. I wasn't born that way, I don't know any secrets, I just spend allot of time/bbs/propane shooting at targets when I'm bored.

Also, watch the magpull dynamic videos, tonnes of useful information in those for both manipulating a rifle and pistol, shotgun video was fun too but not as much of it transitions over to airsoft.

I can't say much about the quick draw (I went to TTAC3's latest AQ2, and MilanWG did some awesome teaching, so I've got to practice all that), but I've started watching the magpull dynamic videos, and they really do give you a lot of information. I really recommend them for everyone. =D

Thanks guys. Much appreciated.

On the subject of eye dominance, in an IPSC type setting, having what's called stereo vision is very important to me to quickly acquire the target. But I find that no matter which sights i use (iron and optics) i find myself having "double vision" because my eyes can't seem to compensate for both the foreground and background on a the sight plane (I have glasses). In turn, this throws my whole stance into disarray because my body can't compensate for the perceived depth of the target.

Often times, in my drills, I find myself forcibly switching from isosceles stance to bladed stance and having to use my dominant eye to aim (the other eye closed). I was hoping that a CMORE would have eliminated the problem at a higher altitude but it limited my plane of vision and I can't acquire the next target as quickly. Plus, I have a crappy CMORE with a lot of glare and the dot doesn't show up properly, but that's another story.

I've been doing some eye exercises whereby, I snap my eye to the target. But when I apply the addition of the gun to the exercise, my arms tends to overcompensate for my eye's perceived mark on the target. That is, my gun placement will overshoot "what my eye is snapping to." thus forcing me to realign to my target anyways. sorta like a back and fourth.

Any thoughts?

1) Ditch the optic if it's just an ornament.
2) talk to other shooters with glasses on and see if they have any tips.
3) Keep practicing.
4) A laser can really help your drill to acquire the target. I don't go continuous on but rather I line up on target and flash the laser when I pull the trigger. Then I repeat till the red dot hits the target. Obviously you need to use a laser can be zeroed to the point of impact to do this.

Using an optic requires practice. There are specific sight acquisition drills required for using electronic optics. In reality, they are similar to "fishing" a sight with open sights (irons) - the difference is the adjustment of the pistol level (to compensate for sight over bore), as well as using a C-More's natural locations to predict the dot's plane of rise.

Where are you located? You should come out to a CAPS event some time if you're in the GTA...

Here's something else you can try. As you're reaching to draw your pistol, put your weak hand up (you'll be looking at your target already) and point your finger/hand at your target, draw your gun and place it into your weak hand. That should help you with accuracy.

I've also found that the Serpa Sportster/CQC holster was the fastest draw/holster I've ever owned.

I've had a lot of training an practice when I was competing in the local CQB league as part of the house team. We did a lot of snap shooting, switching from primary to secondary, and drawing the side arm quickly and accurately.

I've found that practice drawing your gun and bringing it up slowly to train your muscles and aiming down the sights can always help you. Even if you're doing dry runs at home watching the tv.

Once your muscles have remembered this action you're going to be much faster and you'll be able to snap shoot targets accurately.

2.5 seconds is a tad on the slow side. What are you doing in those 2.5 seconds?

I just timed myself with two setups, starting with hands at my side:

Safariland ALS Hip (Paddle) Holster
Mounted just behind the hip bone.
1911
1.24 second reaction time
0.22 second double tap
Steps from beep: Disengage ALS safety, draw weapon, disengage safety lever, fire.

101 Holsters Kydex Hip Holster (Raven Concealment Systems style)
Note: This holster does not have a mechanical safety, and would not be a legal holster under IPSC rules.
Mounted just behind the hip bone.
Kimber Warrior
0.97 second reaction time
0.17 second double tap
Steps from beep: Draw weapon, disengage safety lever, fire.

Using my Ghost holster, I could probably shave at least another quarter second off the time.

My times are slow compared to the pros. The fastest ones can draw and get a sight in less than 0.7 seconds.

A Taco holster is the wrong holster to use for a number of reasons. Mostly, because it encloses the pistol too much - especially for an Open Division pistol, which has a longer muzzle (compensator), and the optics. A lot of potential snag points are presented.


My suggestions regarding your requested recommendations (this is what works for me - each person is different, and they may find something that works better for them.)

Suggested stances:
Isoceles

Suggested trigger pull weight:
For open division, go as light as you can without the pistol being unsafe. In general, airsoft pistols already have an extremely light trigger. However, they can be tuned to hair triggers with a very short pull, and barely 1 oz in pull weight. Regardless, training will compensate for any trigger jerk, even with a very heavy pull. It's not so much the weight that matters (it helps), but technique is more important. Your pull should always be straight to the back, and with the tip of your finger. Using the joint of your finger can potentially pull the pistol to one side. Using the joint of your finger is a military practice for their own reasons.

Suggested holster:
For an open division race gun setup, I can only recommend the Ghost Holster. There are a few variations of this from other manufacturers, but they are essentially all based on the same mechanical concept. These are the fastest holsters you can get, but you have to remember to engage the lock whenever you are not on the firing line. Otherwise, you risk knocking the gun right out of the holster. With that said, other holsters can let you draw extremely quickly (as I showed with my above times). Having a mechanical lock retention is personal preference. It can add security, at the expense of slower draw times. Some lock systems are faster than others. Covered holsters like the ones I mentioned above, are great for skirmishing, as they cover the gun and help protect it from bumps, scratches, dirt, etc. A race holster would be poor for this. However, if you are running an open division setup, you won't be able to find any covered holsters that can also enclose a compensator and optics. Especially if it is a frame mounted optic such as a CMore. You may have luck if your setup uses a slide mounted mRDS, such as a Doctersight. Ultimately, it's up to you to decide what style of holster you want to use for your purposes, and what your budget allows. If it were me, my open division pistol and race holsters would never be on the field for a skirmish or milsim. For those situations, I have other pistols that fall in the Standard Division, Carry Class, whatever you call it (depends on the discipline), and I have enclosed holsters appropriate for each one. If I'm wearing armour, then I'll ditch the hip holster and resort to my drop leg.

Fast target acquisition techniques:
This... I can not tell you properly over the internet. You need to attend a course, so that you can be monitored. Get 1-on-1 instruction. If you pick up bad techniques now, and continue practising with these bad techniques, they will become bad habits that will be harder to break later on down the road. In general, most competitive shooting courses will tell you the basic draw technique as follows (hands starting from side):
- Your support hand should always mirror your weapon hand. This creates balance.
- Your holster will dictate how you grip your gun. But make sure you have a solid grip on the pistol before drawing.
- After drawing, keeping your arms tucked in, raise the front sight to your plane of sight, while maintaining a safe muzzle direction (some ranges will not allow you to point your pistol straight up. Keep it within 45 degrees of horizontal. Less is better.) This should be occuring on your center line. Your support hand should meet the weapon hand and your two-handed grip should take place here.
- While keeping your eye on the front sight, and the front sight on your target at all times, punch your hands out. This process will raise the rear sight up, to meet the front sight.
- Once you have a proper sight picture, fire.
- Trigger is pulled straight back. Not at an angle. Doing so will jerk the shot.

When practising, start it slow, so that the muscle memory builds. Build it properly. When you need to do it fast, it becomes reactive.

GRIP, is another issue, and just as important for fast target acquisition. Get instruction on this. I cannot tell you how to do it. Or, watch videos. Look at Todd Jarrett, for example. He only shoots Standard Division. Irons only. And typically, his times are faster than the fastest Open Division shooters running optics. It's all in his technique... and practice. Here's a great video on grip and draw. Watch his technique:
Todd Jarrett on pistol shooting. - YouTube

Search his name on Youtube and watch all his videos. He's a great instructor.

Cmore/MRDS vs iron sights:
Optics are a personal preference on which you use. Some have a larger sight picture than others. Some feature a lower sight-over-bore distance (lower is easier to get a natural sight).

As for optics vs irons... again, this is personal preference. Some people have a really hard time picking up the dot, because the pistol needs to be held lower. This makes shooting slower, if you're always hunting for the dot. Proper draw technique will reduce the chance of needing to hunt. Again, practice practice practice will create the muscle memory required to get a fast dot acquisition.

Having optics doesn't necessarily make you faster. It does if you get the practice. Otherwise, you can always be out shot by guys running irons.


"Wrist rotation techniques?"?
Sorry, I'm not getting what you mean by this. Rotating for what?


As for a transition to secondary from primary, I use a one point sling, and will drop the primary down my centre. Using my support hand to control the muzzle as I place it down, my weapon hand will be reaching for the pistol at the same time. Once drawn from the holster, I revert back to my basic technique, of meeting my hands at centre line (again, elbows still tucked in), and then punch out from there while picking up a sight picture while punching out.

@Illusion: I may be just assuming from the way e-luder worded his post, but perhaps that 2.5 seconds is a result of switching from primary to secondary and not just drawing?

I wasn't sure, because he presented both options. It wasn't clear to me.

I'll time myself on something like in a bit.

Regardless of what he's timing it will probably benefit being broken down further for practice.

Work just the transition. Work just the Draw. Work the snap shooting pistol in hand. When good at 2 things then combine them.

Also maybe a pop up/pop down target that only gives you a couple seconds to draw and shoot vs. a static one.

If the goal is to get good and shooting from a draw, I think that's probably the starting point. The proper procedure to go from any stance to firing hand to the grip, draw, meeting support hand, sight picture and all that is really common to any pistol work.

I just tried, with a primary (MP5, one point sling), transition to Kimber Warrior in Kydex holster. 1.41 seconds, starting from primary weapon up. On beep, lower the primary, and transition to secondary.

Doing this only added 0.44 seconds to my time. That's not even half a second added.

Sorry. I should have been more clear.

2.5 seconds is the AVERAGE time it takes for me to go from a reaction point to the first trigger pull.

My off hand is what reacts first. It moves towards my dominant hand who is reaching for the release on the holster. My dominant hand grips the pistol as high up on the pistol grip as possible. The grip isn't a crushing grip but it's not a relaxed grip either. The pistol is pulled out of the holster in a parallel motion to the side of the mody and I use my wrist to begin pointing the muzzle before my elbows punches forwards. As the gun reaches punches forward, my off hand comes to grip the opposite side of the pistol. Thumb over thumb. Then I sight in and pull the trigger.

It takes me a bit more longer coming from an unholstered situation wherein, the gun is laying on the table unloaded, safety engaged, hammer up. I saw a few youtube videos where they did this and I wanted to try.

For the in-game scenario, the transition from rifle to secondary generally takes me about 2.15sec since I find I didn't really aim the same way as I did in a quick draw in the IPSC World. And most of the time I find myself having to continue to hold my primary (even though it's on a one point sling) because it tends to drop over my workspace.

The following of targets are a bit troublesome because of the aforementioned problem with my eyes. but I'm slowly learnding to quickly snap in and out of a "zone" as exercises.
THe worst part is i tend to WANT to go back to a bladed stance to accomodate the "one eye open" thing. But practice is what make perfect.

I have been interested in IPSC for a long while now and had plans to build a Hi-cap in the future. BUT my job always has me moving from one place to the next. That and I was somewhat intimidated at first. I am originally from Toronto though so I know my way around there. I will definitely try and make a point to come one your guys' CAPS events.

Seems I just stepped into a whole new world. Exciting. I thank you guys for all the input.

Just so it's clear, you don't have to have a Hi-Capa to participate in CAPS. There are plenty of guys running Glocks, Sig's, PX4's... even revolvers. We also do two gun and three gun scenarios involving transitions to and from carbine, pistol, shotgun and bolt action.

If you have a Black Badge, and you are looking at CAPS as a training source, then that's your prerogative to run a course of fire as you would run an IPSC course. Or if IDPA is your discipline, then you can follow that. It's all up to you. You would be scored against your peers. Likewise, the guys running full tactical rigs, or the concealed carry guys will be scored against their own peers, even if we're all running the same course of fire. Ultimately, when you're on the line, and fighting the clock, the only person you are competing against, is yourself.

The courses of fire are putting in to action, the techniques you have drilled. It's when we take the 100 draw drills a day, 100 sight acquisition drills a day, and 100 transition drills a day, and combine it all together to run a scored course against the clock.

In the past, we operated with a fairly strict guideline on everything from gear, to operation and the guns themselves, but we have moved away from this to open it up to a wider audience.

how often does CAPS events run?

I would very much like to watch for the first few outings.

Though I prefer the feel of Glocks (as most have who know me would know), I feel like the Hi-caps provide a better platform for accuracy and stability over the Glock. There are scores of parts and accessories to choose from. This is a big draw for me. I feel like the hi-cap is more "cross compatible" (or can be tailored to) to conform to various shooting events over other much favored pistols.

CAPS events are once a month. We had a bit of a slow down this year, but are picking things back up for 2013. The winter season is our busiest season.

Due to the trigger and hammer design, Hi-Capa's and 1911's do have a distinct performance advantage over any other pistol platform out there, and for that reason alone, in IPSC, they have their own division (Standard Division) separate from all other pistols. Glocks rule the Production Division.

is there a restriction on how light we can customize the trigger weight in CAPS? ie. before the hammer breaks?

also for the Glock, I shorten the travel the trigger travel far enough that the trigger safety is not active on most of the Glocks that i build for others thats tailored for shooting competitions(ie. the trigger is has no safety). I've always wondered if this was legal in the professional shooting world of airsoft. Is this allowed?

the travel pull on my current race gun glock is about 1cm with about .7ounces to break the hammer.

i realize you can get a 1911/2011 to break the hammer much earlier than the Glock but as you specified Illusion, the glock falls on a different category.

is the Glock I plan on using for the time being outlawed by your standards in CAPS?

sorry i tried searching for a thread on CAPS Rules and Regulations but came up empty handed.

No restriction, as long as it is deemed safe. This is a standard range rule, it is not just an IPSC rule. A gun's trigger should not be able to release the hammer if you shock (bump) the gun, or drop it, or touch the trigger from the side not within the direction of trigger pull. Any such instances would determine the gun to be unsafe due to a negative angle hammer hook/sear engagement.

Make it 1 gram @ 0.1mm if you like, but if you cause it to accidentally discharge, you will be disqualified. If you are modding the gun for yourself, you should know the limits of the gun, and what to do to avoid doing anything unsafe.

As long as you don't cause it to accidentally discharge.

Not outlawed. But the moment it exceeds the size of "the box", uses electronic optics, or has a mock compensator attached, it moves in to Open Division, which directly competes with all other non-restricted builds (including 1911/2011.)

IDPA uses slightly different rules... in that there is essentially no such thing equivalent to IPSC's Open Division. IDPA are all duty and defensive weapons. There is no limitation to trigger work though, as long as it meets the above rules of being "safe". This allowance is in part due to the fact that everybody has different tastes in weight and length.

Addendum, taken from the IPSC Action Air Rulebook, 2010: