Should CO2 SMG/handguns be allowed in games ?
 

I have recently joined a game where some of the players used CO2 handguns which shoot over 400FPS.

As handguns/SMGs (e.g. the mini UZI) are usually for much shorter distance, and CO2 gives out much larger power than green gas/propane, just wonder if these guns should be allowed in game or not? We have pretty clear rules about AEGs and Sniper Rifle FPS, but not one for handguns or SMGs.

Personally I don't own any CO2 guns as I think they are too powerful and may caused serious harm to other players.

I may be wrong and any enlightenment will be much appreciated

FPS/joule limits are FPS/joule limits... If the field/game has them then why on earth should these handguns or SMGs be exempt? Sounds like a case of stupid to me. If the power of the gun can't be lowered below the accepted limit then the gun shouldn't be allowed into play. Seems pretty simple...

If there are high limits because of longer ranges, usually players are expected to carry a secondary weapon or sidearm that doesn't shoot as hot for close quarters. I personally wouldn't run a 360fps rifle and tune my pistol to 450. Just doesn't make any sense, and is rather irresponsible. Unless they plan to use their sidearm as a DMR and their rifle as a pistol, which sounds like another problem unto itself lol.

I personally believe they should be treated as outdoor guns because they fire at the same velocity as most out door guns.

Use the same limitations and common sense as if you were using a full sized outdoor rifle.

As long as they aren't used in cqb as they would be much over the 350 fps limit used in most places.

It's like anything else, gas guns (propane, co2 or otherwise) need to respect the field limits. It's not like AEGs or spring -powered BAs can't shoot above 400 fps, too.

Co2 doesn't necessarily shoot hotter than propane: if I take my WE M4 mags as an example, in side by side conditions, the propane ones usually shoot hotter in most conditions (the interior of the mag is entirely different as well).

So the question is, would you let a hot AEG play? Or a hot GBBR? Or would you oblige the player to install a weaker spring or NPAS, etc ("downgrade or go home")?

If the handguns/SMGs don't conform to whatever rules you have for FPS, then why are you accepting them? And if you don't have rules then you probably should.

FPS limits are not different for pistols or SMGs vs rifles

if it shoots over the limit it should not be used if it shoots under the limit it's fine

the FPS limit at field games I host is 450 all weapons .. so these guns would be fine to use.

Plus 1. All guns "must" follow, and "fall under" field rules. The propellant isn't important, it's all FPS/joules. If the gun can't be brought under then it "cannot" be used. All SMGs, pistols, LMGs, and others (excluding BA) generally fall under the same rules as an assault primary; indoor FPS or outdoor.

Aside from what's already been said...be aware and bring it up to the host well before if there's game conditions specifically related to pistols.

i.e. If there a rule such as pistols only in buildings. I think the LZ used to be like that.

If in question...put that question to the host. Final say is up to them.

The spirit behind any rule/limit/etc. is to establish a upper safety level. It's never been about establishing a level playing field.

However...I think that pistols have mostly been dismissed from being listed in limits since they historically were shooting 300fps +/- just a little and so not a safety concern specifically.

Add to that the commonly understood expectation has been that pistols were used when entering close quarters/built up areas where engagements were often less than 25ft. - this was a safety expectation. An added benefit of this was that it cut down on rage quits.

Not too sure players are (intentionally) using pistols to engage targets from 100ft.; pretty sure players don't want to be digging out BB embedded in their skin.

Where's the value of having a pistol that shoots 450? Trying to understand the benefit.

Yeah. That's my question, pistols are mostly used in close distance. Would it be better if we just use the normal gas pistols to avoid some unnecessary harm to others?

Just trying to tag my mates, not blow them away...

Urgh. This is another one of those "Fine if..." situations.
If the people are of good character and know what they're doing, then sure.
The problem lies in the 'average player' not really understanding the differences in power between guns, and the effects on human skin. Many people, even otherwise sensible ones, look at an airsoft pistol, subgun, AR, LMG side-by-side and directly correlate their power and accuracy to videogames.
Then there is the problem with power trippers who think that power directly equates to better.
Unfortunately we can not rely on people to be trustworthy in their knowledge or intent, so it falls upon the organizer to check and regulate everything being brought onto the field.

I personally believe that any Co2 handgun should be subject to chrono check, simply because there is so much variance between manufacturers, between guns, and even between mags in some guns (pistols which can accept both Co2 and Propane mags will chrono differently on each propellant type).
Some Co2 guns run at ~300fps (TF-11) while others run at ~470-500fps (every Dan Wesson revolver). It has to be case-by-case and people have to realize that ~350fps is still absolutely outdoor viable.

I'm going to use this space while I'm here to suggest that every game organizer institutes an outright ban on Dan Wesson revolvers unless the user is known to be reasonable and is 'sniping' with them. There is no significant drop in fps when moving to a higher weight bb, and the lowest I have seen them chrono is 460fps, even on the 4". This means that these guns can operate well over 2 joules.
If the gun has been modified to shoot under 400, be sure to test at least 10 shots. If 6 shots run 360, 2 run 350, and 2 run 460 it's still a 460fps gun.

With all respect to the OP, I don't even understand why the question is asked.

To me, it's always been clear; 400fps limit is 400fps limit, no matter what shoots it. Why would there be any kind of distinction between rifle, smg, pistol, aeg or propane or CO2?

Most airsoft rifles are used from a longer distance, and pistols are mostly used in CQB and a much shorter distance.

So same power, but shorter distance=more damage=more dangerous. That's why most of the indoor games have limited the FPS to a much lower one.

So what you're really asking is "should there be a separate FPS limit for sidearms/close range weapons." And that's really up to you/your organizers.

We've had that on some [outdoor] fields that had structures and stuff that would present CQB-like conditions. If you're going to engage in those areas, or with X ft of someone, you need to use the lower power secondary weapon. Not unlike snipers (those that underwent the certification bit, anyway) are held to doing.

What I meant is, there's no reason why a pistol should be allowed to shoot more than an AEG.

As for "should it be allowed to shoot as strong as an AEG or should it be considered CQB and respect CQB FPS rules?" (limit them to 350fps because used at closer range usually) - I'd say it's up to the organizer.

A player with no sidearm will use his AEG or freeze the opfor in due circumstances, the same would/should apply for a pistol I guess, as long as it's not over the field limit for AEGs.

But yes, in general it'd be better and simpler for anyone to limit pistols to 350fps as per the CQB "rule", but I think that at an outdoor field the pistol should be allowed as long as under the 400fps limit

My 2c

I don't see the issue here. "Every" event should chrono "every" gun. "every" gun must meet the safety requirements of FPS/joule limits. If your indoor limit is 360 FPS then all pistols, SMGs, ARs, LMGs, etc must be below that standard. If your playing outdoors the same rules apply to the outdoor limit. Some people show great amounts of experience and maturity, but you don't reward them by allowing them to use a hotter gun. That sets a bad example.

As for guns that are easily adjustable in FPS, the owner is responsible for it. If anyone is caught changing springs, cylinders, propellant, or adjusting their MPAS after a chrono check; I'd throw them out of the game forthwith, ban them from future events. I'd also alert the local Airsoft community about them.

Basically your talking about safety and honor. Both of those things are paramount in Airsoft. Set the rules, and make sure everyone follows them; from newbs to vets.

FYI, FPS doesn't alone decide how far and accurate a gun shoots. If a pistol that is within the safety rules is outshooting your ARs and snipers, the issue is with your big guns, not the pistol.

Really? I'm not sure how you figure that one. If you come around a wall at 2-3 feet from me at a game with "no mercy", I'm going to engage you, whether I have a rifle firing 400 or a pistol firing 400. At that point, what's the difference.

If field rules state Max FPS to be 400, what difference is a pistol from an smg from a rifle, with the exception of more accuracy at range?

^ ^
This guy!

400 FPS isn't a whimsical number. We didn't go; "Let's figure out what'll injure us, and then back it off a little". You can be hurt from far less depending on a vast number of variables. We should all know the rules, and the risks.


-I've been shot at 15 feet away with 500 FPS and it barely left a mark.

-At 400 FPS getting hit in the knuckle, ear, nose, etc will hurt like bitch regardless.

-At 380 I've seen a BB break a weapon sight.

-At 360 I've seen one get stuck in someones face.

-At 300 I've seen in shatter someones tooth.

With a 0.20g BB, 400 is 400 is 400, regardless of platform. If using using a gas system chrono with the BB weight being used to ensure joule regs are met. And wear the safety gear. No mask, head, or throat guards = no right to complain.

if you have limits on FPS you need limits on protective gear too....the face is fine, but how do you feel the hits through all the stupid tactical vests, some ppl need a layers limit...military gear is cool but i dont get the senarios...lol id rather be gang banging in my senario then fightin terrorists...i guess gangbangin is closer to home for me haha

For most people, the military gear and technology is the point. Most of us wear gear that makes what we are doing more efficient, but not all, some are there for the fashion show or to role-play. That being said, tactical gear makes a good *THWAP* when struck by a BB and most BBs are tracer-white and you can see the hit. Typically BBs are shot in small bursts as you don't know where the first one might fly off to, so sending 2-4 is average and you rarely get hit with just one, especially at a distance. As for feeling the hits, yes, tactical gear can protect you from actually feeling/noticing, but either you're not paying attention, or one fluffer shot got you on the run. Most will be aware that they are being shot at as well, so you're ready for the hit to happen. Tactical gear in this regard will never be regulated down, and when I say never, I mean never, because there isn't a stronger word than never to use. That being said, you can regulate it down on your own field, but progressive airsoft is going more tactical, not less. So when I need to carry eight mags, bags of ammo, liters of water, food, loading tools, basic med supplies, communications equipment, tape and tools, extra clothing, etc, or even a smaller kit for just a scrim, a plate carrier is the best possible choice for weight dispersion, effective/efficiency, and comfort.

As for FPS regulations, well they aren't going anywhere either and are very important. We do accept some risk by stepping into the field, but we have to have reasonable limitations for safety and sportsmanship. 1.5 joules, or similar, seems to be the magic number, but strictly indoor facilities run closer to 1.2 joules or less typically. It doesn't take much to injure someone with a BB. At under 1.5 joules I've seen someone get a BB lodged into their tongue and a variety of other injuries caused by BB strikes. I've played games with much higher FPS restrictions and lower. We've been doing this for a long time, and although we don't all agree on exactly where the best FPS limitations should be, most are fairly close, depending on field/game dynamics. 500 FPS is hard, too hard really to play generic airsoft without nearly being fully armored (mask, helmet, etc), so it has to be dumbed down from there based on engagement distances and safety. Also BB weight plays a large role as well. Most players don't run 0.20g BBs (the chrono weight), as it's just used as a measuring guideline in most cases, with the potential of your joules going up with extra weight, your velocity must come down to compensate. So no, FPS limits are intrinsic for intelligent, safe and reasonable airsoft to take place.

I have played a lot of games, and FPS limits are totally dependent on the players on the field in terms of enjoyment. I've been to Brian's field a number of times with no FPS regulations, but the players were all top tier and it was amazing. I've also been to indoor public games with 350 fps limits and fucking hated it. 350fps with full auto at point blank is way more uncomfortable than 500fps at range.

The limits are in place for safety to the public. The host can't always be in control of their players and as such is a measure to balance safety with fun and keeping the crying to a minimum.

Personally, if they caliber of players were higher I'm sure we wouldn't see FPS regulations as often as we do, but it all boils down to experience, and that has taught us that for public games it is required.

As for gear. Its bullshit to say they couldn't feel it. I've worn armor of all types and have never had a problem feeling or hearing hits except at the longer ranges while in the forest. Often I will take a hit even if I am unsure of whether or not I was actually hit, to ensure fairness.

EDIT: As a side not, I'm a firm believer that RPS is more of an advantage than FPS. Being able to dump 40-50 rounds a second onto a target is far more of an force multiplier than power per shot. This also applies to CQB where trigger response adds a huge advantage, and having people rage quit because they got lit up by extremely fast semi fire is hilarious. At Nightfall 4 I got yelled at by enemies because they mistook my semi fire for auto indoors. This is where the decided factor of limited ammunition and no FPS limits is important, to prevent excessive shooting unless it is absolutely required, and prevents the game turning into who can put more ammo down range than the other team.

Yeah. People who don't call their are hits are just not calling them. The odd ones not felt are a non issue, in fact it's a non issue regardless. I've played those higher FPS games as well and would so again with higher caliber players, but I've also learned that the best of us make mistakes, so close range face shots and whatever, will happen, so just know what you're getting into. My guns reformable at sub 1.5 joules with 0.30g BBs is outstanding though, I don't really see the need to bump up FPS. You'd get a bit more range with heavier BBs, assuming of course your setup is done right, but most DMR guns on the field with more FPS than mine (50+), I'm still out shooting. So if you're gonna do high FPS you gotta do it right. Plus over 400 FPS there's a much, much, much higher chance of bleeders, embedded rounds and hurt feelings. Also, I don't like a game where there's a feeling that an MED is necessary. Leave that crap for snipers so they can have some BA advantage.

I bought a desert eagle pistol that came with 2 C02 mags. The gun shot amazing, long range and accurate, but it was shooting 435FPS. So, nope couldn't field it. Everywhere was 400 - 420. Had to buy some green gas mags. Now it shoots 385, still long range and accurate, but it's gameable. I never thought, "Oh its a pistol so it shouldn't count for FPS rules. Its a weapon system, just like rifles, shotguns and SMG's.

Ya know, the longer I play this game the more I'm a fan of mandatory secondary's with low FPS, at least for more serious players, fields, games, etc. having a reliable pistol that shoots sub 350 is an effective and safe way to deal with CQB situations and is also a benefit to the player. Many fields started doing this for snipers (plus FPS BA units) years ago because of MEDs, but honestly, why not make it a benchmark for everyone? It completely makes sense to me. As for CO2 pistols in general, their general FPS seems to be coming down, but there should be a way to make the FPS come down safely nowadays. Either way, whatever type of gun you're running its your responsibility to make sure it's within field limits and stays that way post chrono.

The gun must shoot under 400 fps on the first shots of the canister. This way there's no question whether or not someone bled x number of shots out of it to get under 400 fps.

If I'm running chrono, I have the person insert a new canister AT the chrono, and if it's under 400, then it's good. If it's over, it's a no go. You can't prove once it's on the field the guy isn't putting a new canister in at whatever time, and proving he's doing a sufficient number of bleed shots to get it under 400.

All users get special "feelings" training on how to detect hits. In fact some of the gear amplifies the sound of the hit vs. a soft jacket that soaks up a BB with nary a hint.

Hard disagree. Although I don't typically wear a mask (my choice), I've had two teeth shot out and plenty of bleeders, fat lips, etc. realistically you want more protection not less. Anyways, no one wants to get hit in the face so they can feel their hits.

No he's saying protecting your face is OK but the rest of your gear should be a crop top and nut huggers.

shirts 'n skins gameplay, it's how all the cool kids play now.

Unless your hosts are idiots, this is pretty much it. Any FPS/Joule limit for guns, other than sniper if that applies at the fiedl, apply to all guns, pistols/smg included. Would you chrony a GBBR at your field?

There's a funny thing in here where I agree and disagree.
There's so many situations where only a face is presented as a target, or where one stands up/ leans out into a field of suppressive fire, or pure oddball accidents, that my personal opinion is if you aren't wearing face protection any damage you receive is your own goddamn fault.

I most often go without when I'm outdoors, and that's my own, personal, adult problem.

If a group that I play with says "Don't do it" I won't shoot anyone in the face. Otherwise, the "Bubble of invulnerability" which extends from the top of the helmet to the sternum seems pretty retarded.

Same with wearing safety glasses without a lanyard. What the fuck were you thinking?

Oh yeah, I totally agree. I meant getting shot in the face isn't pleasant or okay.

Yes, no problem there.

I just wish groups would be more upfront with their face rules, and specifically who bears the burden of responsibility in most common situations where a dude gets a mouth full. A demonstration of what an airsoft gun does to a watermelon every now and again would be a good idea.

I think a lot of players run without a cage because if the salty old guys do it it must be fine, right?
In reality, the salty old guys either have a good dental plan, or figure their teeth are bad enough it doesn't matter, or are dumb as doornails.
I fit into the latter two categories, fully consenting. I honestly can't help but roll my eyes at disputes I've seen or heard about.

Myself, I'm starting to wear a modified face piece that just covers my nose and mouth, but it's always been easier to go without. I recommend all youth wear them so their parents don't have to pay for their grills, but it's at the players discretion. I accept full responsibility for not wearing one, but getting a face full of rounds sucks for sure, but it happens. I got a grenade round to the face point blank last time I played (100 plus rounds?). It was hilarious and inconvenient.

is it just me or do other people agree that no airsoft shot will hurt as bad as a paintball to the same spot

Hurt worse, but for a shorter time. Paintball rounds are larger and therefore carry more kinetic force, so their velocity regulations are lower. Paintballs also cover more area during a strike effectively dispersing the damage. You are far more likely to get a large welt or bruise from a paintball and clearly feel the force of the object, whereas airsoft will likely sting more and break skin, as it is smaller and travelling faster. Not to mention, airsoft will get into the corner of your nose, between your nuckles, in your ear, etc, which are so sensitive you'll be swearing and jumping up and down. Either one isn't a big deal for the lost part. I've been shot so many times rarely does it bother me.

Are you saying that the Dan Wesson Revolver is good for sniping? or that it has good range? I am curious cause i was thinkin of gettin a 2.5 inch revolver just to have a near-replica revolver (not to take to skirmish with)

If you're wearing proper head gear (goggles, face mesh, helmet?) and something with sleeves, I don't see the issue with being hit with even perhaps 450fps at close ranges, I wouldn't mind.
One thing I really liked about Nightfall was the lack of a minimum engagement distance and the higher fps means better range in most situations (as well as not losing your shot because it hit a fucking leaf).
We should all do best to remember that airsoft is quite simply a combat sport, and like all combat sports there are risks associated with playing if proper safety precaution is not taken.

Theesire: Hooray for the reasonable opinion!

mike: Not really.
When I wrote that post years ago, the Dan Wessons were new to Canada and selling like hotcakes.
The problem was, people saw a 'handgun' and thought that it should be used as a 'handgun' where the speeds they were shooting was more inline with the limits for a 'sniper rifle'.
Many groups required those using hot 'sniper rifles' to rigidly observe a minimum engagement distance or MED (usually 60ft, and many groups still do). That meant pulling a Dan Wesson as a secondary would be grossly violating the MED for high FPS guns. Coupled with the HUGE problems with 'joule creep' in gas guns vs. air compression guns (read up on this), and you could have a seriously dangerous airgun pointed at people in CQB ranges. Not good.

'Sniping' with one is a tough issue, because IIRC they didn't/ don't have any real, adjustable hopup system. A few different mod schemes existed/ exist to add a hopup and/ or lower the FPS, but none were universally successful at the time of my post.
Mods to lower the FPS which were available at the time were deemed unsuccessful by a tech I was working under at the time, due to their wild inconsistency.

My point was that they should be treated as 'Sniper rifles' (MED, used by a person known to not be a shitbird) or banned, not that they'd make a good one.
I have no idea what the deal with them is these days, maybe someone can enlighten us.

As for paintball vs. airsoft, I've done both exhaustively. Paintball will give you big ol' bruises, but airsoft will give you deep tissue damage and brutal infections. Win some, lose some either way.

They'll both destroy your eyes and knock out your teeth, that's for sure.

Ive definately had bleeders, including lip bleeders and my buddy said i got his front tooth but it didnt chip it (i was about 60-70ft out but it was with the KWC Uzi)...my friends and i play with a one-layer rule when it comes to the chest and it does make it more fun when you can feel your hits, and we all just were glasses but this thread makes me wanna use the paintball mask, and a chrono tester thingy...

I want a gas revolver with really good range and consistent accuracy but for comfort and looks i want the 2.5inch ones....will those two wants clash with eachother? i have hear that barrel length greatly affect the joules/fps...

It can have an effect. Really you want a good hop-up and high quality barrel. Once the BB stabilizes in the barrel, extra barrel doesn't help you. Typically pistols don't have the range of other platforms, but it isn't necessarily short barrels that are the cause. A few pistols have been known to have decent range over others, but pistols are typically CQB go-tos and not effective primary's.

Just curious how does one swap out batteries when playing war games? Do they do time outs to change batteries? ... just curious is all

Change it out like changing a mag or clearing a malfunction. Find some cover and do it. No time out for that. It does suck when you have something that isn't super easy to change battery on

Yup. Change it at your own risk. If I'm pinned down and absolutely must change my battery right then, I'll pull out my pistol as insurance. That being said, battery swaps are meant to be quick, so if there's screws involved or something else complex then you may consider changing your battery system. If I'm assuming correct and you would use WWII weapons instead of modern tactical weapons, then you probably don't want to add modern stocks or mod your gun much, etc. So maybe change it to a push pin release instead of something more time consuming. Another option, and frankly a totally reasonable one, you'll get shot a ton in game, so you could just call yourself out, go back to respawn and chafe your battery there.

I never liked FPS limits over 450-500....however yesterday i had BB go halfway into my inner-elbow vien from a dan wesson at about 4 ft out....i dont blame the shooter or the rules...i came around a corner and got lit up at close range, my bad...if i want to blame someone other then me for that i dont think i should be playing with these toy guns...i also only play outside and really cant use .2s for their inaccuracy, so i like high fps....not to ignore the safety aspect, i tell ppl to wear long sleave underarmor like shirts that way it still hurt...sorry, but if it doesnt hurt i dont really wanna play, maybe that makes me a sick and twisted individual but its how i feel about the hobby. having to pinch the bb halfway out my vien and back through a few layers of skin didnt really chang my opinion on fps... it just means that glasses maynot be enough for me anymore, and masks could become mandatory at my events (on my private property) that allow 450-500 for a max limit....
And i love the kwc uzi...regardless of the kwc part its worth the $200, and if you have spare mags its great, i have had friends say theyd take a decent GBBP over it in any game, so SMGs are definately a personal preference

That's the thing with FPS and MEDs, eventually you will have an accident anyways. Best to be prepared.

You know, I'm seeing a huge epidemic of teams, fields, games, etc, who are creating special rules for gun types. Dan Wesson revolvers and HPA systems are at the top of that list. Rules should be created based on reasonable safety and sportsmanship and then the players must be responsible for making their guns fit into them.

yea i could understand have gun/gam specific rules (i have a friend who brings his 15 yr old out, kids tough but i dont allow the uzi)...that dan wesson is an odd one though..its accuracy is as inconsistent as the velocity...i stuck my arm out to fire and my buddy shot me 3 times, one little red mark through the glove, and blood ringer on the inner elbow then the third was one inch over on the inner elbow and i shit you not, that 6mm imbedded itself into the vien! so much blood when it popped out haha....still the hand shot hurt the worst

I'm assuming you guys don't have a chrono?