New BB design: is it possible?
 

Hi
Since I started to get more into milsim with my KJW GBBR I was wondering if there is a possibility with real cap mag, to have a new design for BBs and get rid of the hop up.
The idea is simple:
Use a conical (6mm) bullet to have more aerodynamic potential.
I m not a specialist of guns or aerodynamic system that’s why I want your opinion
Correct me if I ‘m wrong, but could a conical bulllet keep her speed much longer and by consequence go further?
Does the gain in drag effect will compensate the hop up effect? That also mean the BB will hit his target faster at 100 feet for exemple instead of having this current situation of people avoiding slow BB because of the hop up, just doing one step aside.
With still the round tip of the bullet (more like the real 9 mm) I guess we still keeping a low penetration effect (trough skin) and stay safe.
You add the twisted barrel like the real one can also improve the aerodynamic, if I’m right.

What do you think ? Could it be the next generation of BB for real cap?

Why not just use real bullets...
Or rather, make then out of plastic and play real guns instead of airsoft? lol

You're wrong.. the issue is the weight of the projectile .. and the safe velocity limitation for shooting people.

The only way to solve these problems is a spherical projectile and backspin.

If you Don't want people sidestepping.. wait till you are closer to shoot them..

I have not seen someone sidestep a bb shot within 10 feet.

There was another member here who made a thread about how he was designing an airsoft sniper bullet like this, but in short it never materialized. I like your idea and I doubt many airsofters haven't gave it a thought, but I could foresee some legal and physics problems introduced. Any projectile with a length greater than it's diameter will tumble and change trajectory as it decelerates unless its axially spinning at a velocity proportionate for its mass to generate enough gyroscopic inertia to hold its path. Plastic is very light, respectively, and to get it to spin fast enough the barrel must be coarsely rifled and this creates great drag, which could be overcome with more pressure and airflow but this brings about some new problems. It would almost be easier to set it into spinning by using a high speed motorized wheel in the chamber and then fire it down a smooth bore barrel.

If it worked and it was marketable in the current airsoft Market Bastard would offer it and China would clone it. Plus these weird shaped 'bbs'' would render current mags obsolete.

the safe velocity limitation for shooting people.
You don't understand. I don't want to increase the velocity but keep it for longer

If you Don't want people sidestepping.. wait till you are closer to shoot them..
Really?

I've seen other ideas like this before and answer simply put is yes somebody already has done what ur suggesting (kind of...) and no there are no real cap mags that can utillise them as yet for m4 based airsoft guns... at least that i know of and what i don't know could fill a barn or 2 so pplease feel free to correct me if i' wrong there.

if u look a4ound enough u'll eventually find info on here somewhere about bb's that were oval cross-section with a little tail designed for use in breach loading sniper rifles

Really... most people at outdoor airsoft games close to the maximum effective range of their guns.. and then plink at each other...

With effective fire and movement and proper use of suppressing fire. you can close to close range and be certain of your shots.

But this requires co-ordination and acceptance of command.

Airsoft guns are poor tools to simulate engagements in a field setting.. even if you doubled the range of all guns all you do is push the same problem downrange by another 100 feet. so instead of people sidestepping your shoots at 100 feet they would do it at 200 feet.. what did you achieve?
nothing useful.

The guns present certain limitations.. these limitations can be overcome by skill. If you choose to take the time to develop it.

It's called a pellet gun. Go have fun with some wadcutters.

If it worked and it was marketable in the current airsoft Market Bastard would offer it and China would clone it. Plus these weird shaped 'bbs'' would render current mags obsolete.
Not necesserely because, the modification to do to fit mag, the real cap aspect (you couldn't switch to low cap or hi cap) that mean it could be the result of a new category of specialized (milsim) airsoft

if u look a4ound enough u'll eventually find info on here somewhere about bb's that were oval cross-section with a little tail designed for use in breach loading sniper rifles
I saw those wings bullets and happy some to see people some people try to innovate systems...Even if it's not working all the time

Is it not the opposite? Lighter mean less energy needed to spin the BB, no?

they used to make airsoft ammo in a shape of a bullet shape pellets made ut of soft plastic but that was way back in the 70's and 80's and it was ammo for springer guns, eventhough it was low powered springer, as I remember it hurts like a bitch and I actually bleed when shot by my cousin. Now bring this forward to present time with the more powerfull AEG/GBBR it think the potential for injuries can drastically increase.

Yes but because its so light it has to spin at a remarkable speed to generate enough gyroscopic force and thus the barrel has to be coarsely rifled. Given the weights of about 0.2-0.4g and low apparent muzzel velocities, it would have to be rifled so coarse it would score the surface of the bb and likely sheer the grooves off it.

I remember that. I had a cap gun that shot that ammunition. The cap could put those through paper at 15ft.

@ OP, the idea of making a more aerodynamic "bb" has been around for a long time. Tiberius tried to do it with their paintball markers and created the First Strike round that was extremely expensive, marginally effective and was almost uniformly banned from all field as it posed a safety risk.

http://throwingpaint.com/published/p...%20rounduu.jpg

Now I see your point and I almost totaly agree with everything. Actually this is what I practice with my team. but at some point it could be more interesting (tactically) for game to have a better range and a better speed BB (shooting people running).
Also the very close range we use in games change some aspect to tactic accordingly to reality. Sound are easy to spot, and visual contact are easier to make instead of the range they use in reality.
In my idea first, I just want to remove the hop up and compensate by another system more simple and more realistic. if we can gain other performance without increase the velocity... why not.:)

the type of ammo i'm talking about was before those caps gun ammo these look like conical mushrooms, made with very soft plastics and usually white or pink in colour, eventually they evolve to a more rounded form (like the current madbull nades but way smaller) for the classic MGC/Maruzen springer an back to the bb format we are familliar today

Hmmm, maybe we are not talking about the same thing, the "bbs" I'm referring to looked like while footballs with fins at one end, or maybe like a small blimp.

those were for caps guns in the 80's the ones I'm talking about are the ones that are available prior to the JAC's, AEG's thes ewere very popular and a lot safer than the caps guns version, they were everywhere in HK mostly in the Japanese superstore like Daimaru, Sogo etc. My first ones were teh .38 detective specials and the MP5 with brown shells. the football shape version you mentioned was recently reintroduced by RAP4 for their airsoft line

The problem with a conical projectile is that you no longer are able to add backspin (lift), so the flight will be parabolic. The only other way to flatten out the parabola is to increase velocity, and increasing velocity increases risk.

Yes, there is less drag on a cone than a sphere, but at the velocities we play at, I don't think it's a good idea. There isn't enough energy to spin the projectile (rifling) and if there is, you're in the realm of air guns/pellet guns, which can kill people.

These are an example of finned bb's

http://rap4.com/airsoft-airfin-a-36.html

I bet you're thinking of Asahi Blade Bullets.

DonP did some skirted BBs but all they did was tumble.

Same weight projectile.. same velocity .. without the lift effect of the backspin
creating low pressure above the bb and high below it .. the only effect on the BB is gravity..

spinning something around it's axis does not provide this lift.. so gravity would have no countering force .. the only advantage would be less resistance due to the conical shape.. and in such a light projectile this advantage is negligible.

it's a interesting thought exercise.. but just a little bit of math ( even done conceptually without calculation ) soon results in it's rejection

this is even before you consider the ramifications of a pointed projectile for close range engagements.. people would tire quickly of digging these things out of their flesh.

any "improved" projectile needs to take into consideration the full scale of possible impacts with skin form 0 feet to maximum distance.

your concept fails in this regard

I believe the OP's intention is to bring a more realistic feel to the projectiles.

If the concern is that targets can quite easily dodge the BBs at low speed, I would suggest the use of black BBs. I believe it would be harder for the target to see the BBs coming even at low speed, thus, making it harder to identify the position of the shooter. If you are in a milsim mindset, I guess you wouldn't mind not having the "tracing" effect of white BBs.

If the concern is engagement distance, than I guess the only solution for more "hardcore" milsim rules is to allow for greater musle energy of the primary weapon... these kind of games should be reserved to players who know what they're doing, are aware of their minimum engagement distance and lower musle energy side arms should be mandatory.

This is if there's no better technical solution to keep a straight path and reduce drag of the BB.

Had difficulties to find black BBs bio. I use my eotech to aim as a milsim guy, not the BB Flow. Also my gbbr (bb's magnet) sound when it's firing in comparison to AEG, give my position right away

Greater velocity in game can be achievable if everybody wear the right protections. Could be hot in summer but...:)

I just saw a couple reviews and they are not seem have the performance they promise on box. 70' Vs 300' announced...:(

Black bastards .25s a easy to find just order from the bastards or PM a bastard and ask if he can send you some. I use 1 white bb then 2 black bbs (and so on and so forth) works great and you're not aiming a flow at all and just cause someone hears a GBBR doesn't always mean they duck.

the only Eco or bio BB I see are white, on their website:confused:

Eco only available in white

Green devils, as their name states, are a light green which seems to make them dissapear in flight.

A little off-topic, but was just browsing the Rap4 website and saw these

http://www.rap4.com/store/paintball/..._1840_105.html

Now, those would be GREAT for those not calling their hits.. have a mag loaded up with those and handy - anyone you suspect of blatantly not calling hits.. now you've got your proof, where honor has been failed.

'Problem solved'? .. switch back to your regular ammo mag.

The real highlight is when they disintegrate in your feedpath.

Their stuff is so expensive.

Everything in this topic has been discussed 5 times already lol
What's so wrong with regular BB's??
If you're not getting at LEAST 260 feet out of a GBBR or AEG, the problem is your gun, gundoctor, parts, or quality of ammo, not the shape of your ammo!