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Airsoft Canada (https://airsoftcanada.com/forums.php)
-   Accessories Discussion (https://airsoftcanada.com/forumdisplay.php?f=25)
-   -   Investigating BioVALs BB Claims (https://airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=81725)

Donster May 5th, 2009 15:56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy (Post 979662)
Scarecrow since you are the owner of BB Bastard, should we apply these criteria when confronted with your research and/or results?
in theory yes, but i think Scarecrow feels that his product is superior, and by obtaining factual evidence, he can prove it so. thus, it would be in his best interests to present the facts as is. besides, i dont think he is worried about a "superior product" taking over the market. His product IS PROVEN to be so far superior to others and as for BBs, they cant really get any better. for bioval products to enter canada, it shouldn't pose much of a threat as it has to compete with a local product that has so far been proven superior to any others that have entered our country. Besides, ill take the slightly heavier weight of BB Bastard .28s over bioval .27s

The Saint May 5th, 2009 16:04
Quote:
Originally Posted by DONSTER 125 (Post 979674)
His product IS PROVEN to be so far superior to others and as for BBs, they cant really get any better.
Scarecrow has never made the claim of being the best. Try not to brag him into a difficult position.

Azathoth May 5th, 2009 16:12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy (Post 979671)
I have been wondering the same thing. Perhaps Scarecrow has not bought any BBBMAX. There are other similar products. Try at http://www.begadishop.com/catalog/in...p?cPath=21_208 he sells glass bbs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow (Post 979449)
Thanks, this is helpful information.

To clarify the costing, the shipping was $14 USD, so the product itself was $24, but that was 2000. I think the product is just beginning to get into the North American supply chain and I think at the beginning unless BioVAL has pricing restrictions, you might seem some profit taking on initial sales. Pretty normal for a premium product that is in high demand and low supply.

Converted to Canadian dollars my final landed cost is $49 CAD.
I've seen that site already in the arnies debate, their are a couple of retailers oversea's that sell glass BB's as well, hence the debate as to the materials made of the BBBmax

This debate is a dead horse oversea's, take your bag of BBBmax shoot some of them and take the remainder to a university for analysis in a mass spectroscope.

As for the powder left behind. I ground the powder between my fingers and it didnt break my skin, I also taste tested the 'shards', I found them to "less toxic tasting than regular BB's".

Based on my personal experience in crushing these BB's. I don't think a AEG or a sniper rifle could ever propel the BBBmax with sufficient force to cause it to shatter against commonly found items on a field, and that weapon still be within field limits.

I believe that fields should disallow or ban these bb's based on the materials found on the field. Yes, they break glass, so you should bring your truck onto the field, etc. again all stated much earlier in page 1 of this.


PS Easy where are you from?

Easy May 5th, 2009 16:15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DONSTER 125 (Post 979674)
in theory yes, but i think Scarecrow feels that his product is superior, and by obtaining factual evidence, he can prove it so. thus, it would be in his best interests to present the facts as is. besides, i dont think he is worried about a "superior product" taking over the market. His product IS PROVEN to be so far superior to others and as for BBs, they cant really get any better. for bioval products to enter canada, it shouldn't pose much of a threat as it has to compete with a local product that has so far been proven superior to any others that have entered our country. Besides, ill take the slightly heavier weight of BB Bastard .28s over bioval .27s
I respect your product loyalty. I guess a lot of companies would love that kind of customer. Outside of Canada nobody i know has ever heard of the BB Bastard. In fact, i thought "the BB Bastard" was Scarecrow's Nom de Guerre.

:roll:

But that is beside the point. Differing opinions make a market and testing a new product can change those opinions.

I do not wish to degrade anyones products. I have never tried the BB Bastard and so i cannot formulate an opinion of any sort.

I can also fully understand the fact that Scarecrow's opinions are largely based on his attempts to defend his turf. This is absolutely normal IMO.

Scarecrow May 5th, 2009 16:16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy (Post 979662)
Scarecrow since you are the owner of BB Bastard, should we apply these criteria when confronted with your research and/or results?
and I repeat here and now what I put in post #1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow (Post 976648)
I will be upfront about this, I am a BB retailer here in Canada, so I do have declared interests in this area.
I've declared my interests already, you're not pointing out anything that I haven't identified. As I said before Easy, please stick to the discussion as outlined in post #1. This isn't a fanboy versus detractor thread, its a critical discussion about the items I posted. Consider this your second warning to stick to the thread topic. I won't have this thread degenerate into character assassinations (of me or BioVAL). I am asking REASONABLE questions, the burden of proof lays at the feet of those laying claims, not me. If I lay a claim I will accept a burden of proof and don't meet that standard posted, please feel free to come at me, but enough it enough.

Easy May 5th, 2009 16:20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azathoth (Post 979682)
,

I purchased 2 cases of this product (10 bags) count at a total cost of 250CDN shipped to my door per case.

I don't know which retailer you purchsed your BBBmax's from but the MSRP for 10 bags should be in the neighbouhood of 200-230 USD.

They have been in the US supply chain for a little over 1 yr now. if anything profit taking has been due to the explosion of demand

I've seen that site already in the arnies debate, their are a couple of retailers oversea's that sell glass BB's as well, hence the debate as to the materials made of the BBBmax

This debate is a dead horse oversea's, take your bag of BBBmax shoot some of them and take the remainder to a university for analysis in a mass spectroscope.

As for the powder left behind. I ground the powder between my fingers and it didnt break my skin, I also taste tested the 'shards', I found them to "less toxic tasting than regular BB's".

Based on my personal experience in crushing these BB's. I don't think a AEG or a sniper rifle could ever propel the BBBmax with sufficient force to cause it to shatter against commonly found items on a field, and that weapon still be within field limits.

I believe that fields should disallow or ban these bb's based on the materials found on the field. Yes, they break glass, so you should bring your truck onto the field, etc. again all stated much earlier in page 1 of this.


PS Easy where are you from?
I agree with you 100%.

I am from Switzerland. The land where all males between the age of 18 and 42 serve their country and get to keep their combat gear at home. Including our awesome SG550 full auto assault rifles. :D

Scarecrow May 5th, 2009 16:20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy (Post 979671)
I have been wondering the same thing. Perhaps Scarecrow has not bought any BBBMAX. There are other similar products. Try at http://www.begadishop.com/catalog/in...p?cPath=21_208 he sells glass bbs.
No, here is where I bought it. Its the real deal.

http://www.airsoftnw.com/modules.php...5207.164.80.96

Azathoth May 5th, 2009 16:43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow (Post 979688)
No, here is where I bought it. Its the real deal.

http://www.airsoftnw.com/modules.php...5207.164.80.96
That is where I bought mine the unit price has gone up 5 dollars since my purchase in Jan.

My retail experience was a little different than yours, I had to initiate a paypal complaint due to exceptional bad communication.

I have spoken to trichrome (his ASC handle and on airsoftmechanics.com), you may want to ask him his opinion on the matter as he stated to me feels that the bbbmax are as good or better than the super high end sniper grade ammo. (TM superior grade 0.30, Maruzen SGM).

Scarecrow May 5th, 2009 16:48
Quote:
Originally Posted by DONSTER 125 (Post 979674)
in theory yes, but i think Scarecrow feels that his product is superior, and by obtaining factual evidence, he can prove it so. thus, it would be in his best interests to present the facts as is. besides, i dont think he is worried about a "superior product" taking over the market. His product IS PROVEN to be so far superior to others and as for BBs, they cant really get any better. for bioval products to enter canada, it shouldn't pose much of a threat as it has to compete with a local product that has so far been proven superior to any others that have entered our country. Besides, ill take the slightly heavier weight of BB Bastard .28s over bioval .27s
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saint (Post 979679)
Scarecrow has never made the claim of being the best. Try not to brag him into a difficult position.
Actually I think my product is a reasonably high quality product at a competitive price, with an established distribution network, but I am not making comparisons to the BioVAL product here. Unless they decide to sell it for $10 a bag here in Canada, I don't feel threatened by it. I don't want to make this a fanboy thread for BB Bastard either because it would detract from the credibility of me trying to maintain a neutral position in the matter. And I will ask the moderators to delete posts that go fanboy on one side or the other. This is admittedly a hard thread for me to moderate but I think people who know me know I am level headed and those who witnessed me keep the peace between Wolfpack and the external world during those years KNOW this inherently about me. I don't expect guys like Easy or perhaps other lurkers who have no history here to appreciate this fact but I would expect that the more outrageous accusations from outsiders to be largely ignored by those who know me at ASC.

If I do appear to get partisan on the issue, feel free to give me a kick in the nuts, otherwise just stay on topic and we'll get some answers soon I am sure. I'm betting this thread will get a lot of attention on this end of the pond.

Scarecrow May 5th, 2009 16:49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azathoth (Post 979682)
...and take the remainder to a university for analysis in a mass spectroscope.
Give the man a cigar...

Scarecrow May 5th, 2009 16:53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy (Post 979687)
I am from Switzerland. The land where all males between the age of 18 and 42 serve their country and get to keep their combat gear at home. Including our awesome SG550 full auto assault rifles. :D
Okay, now I officially hate you ;) I plink with my semi-auto AR15 here at the federally approved range and they have everything short of a blood sample from me to do it.

Just to make sure people understand, this isn't an anti-Swiss thing on my part.

Azathoth May 5th, 2009 16:59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow (Post 979710)
Okay, now I officially hate you ;) I plink with my semi-auto AR15 here at the federally approved range and they have everything short of a blood sample from me to do it.

Just to make sure people understand, this isn't an anti-Swiss thing on my part.
We are getting Off topic...

jealous as well, I heard their is talk about the gov't taking your weapons back after training is done or was that Sweden?

Scarecrow May 5th, 2009 17:02
Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy (Post 979620)
You requested that i only post if i have facts. Well here are the facts...

HERE IS THE CLINCHER - Type (1) Single Ownership Business DOES NOT require entry into the Commercial Registry and DOES NOT require a VAT number to operate. So your Consular investigation may very well turn up nothing...

Write to the Fiduciary Representative of Levante Labs and ask if this company exists. Otherwise just a dead end

… enjoy your tea.
A sole proprietorship laboratory? Wow, thats a person with some deep pockets, that lab equipment is mighty expensive for one person to finance. That makes me question even more if its a real company now.

Once I figure out who the Fiduciary Representative is and how to contact him, that may be the only route to go as you point out. As to why they want to maintain so many layers between themselves and the people who may question their work, as a scientific testing body I find that a little suspicious.

CSA here in Canada can be contacted directly and as with the case of many public and private labs, they have direct public contact numbers published so that anyone can follow up on any questions someone may have in regards to their testing results. It would seem to me that Levante Labs is set up in such a way as to be able to avoid contact, not invite it, and if thats the case, then why? Its counterproductive to the peer review process that is so critical in scientific investigative practices that are accepted worldwide.

As it stands now, its impossible to peer review this document, so at this point I am considering the Levante Labs document a marketing tool and not a scientific treatise of any kind. The burden of proof lays with them the publishers, not me, the reader.

Scarecrow May 5th, 2009 17:09
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG (Post 979611)
Holy shit!

I'm not shooting that at any of my friends... or enemies for that matter. How sharp is that shard? It looks sharp. It might be good for targets, but I wouldn't want the liability associated at a game with a ricochet from that.

Azathoth May 5th, 2009 17:11
This thread is killing my productivity... Oh well...

As an Accoutant, I am appalled by the differences between accounting rules in the EU, UK, Canada, and USA. The part that is important to take from that is the huge differences in government policy, public lobby etc. The Swiss, have done things "their way" for a very very long time. It aggravates me professionally that they still distinguish the difference between Tax Fraud, and Tax Evasion (both are the same in the EU, Canada it's all tax fraud).

Their country, their rules. I could operate a company out of the Cayman islands and do the same thing, would you buy my BBs?

EDIT:

Scarecrow, your posts seem like you havent read the whole thread without being interrupted. Read my above post about grinding the shards and eating them.

I have yet to see a BBBmax shatter under shooting conditions.


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