there was a lot of combat done at night well before night vision Scopes were invented.

Skilled players can neutralize the impact of night vision..

I ran mostly 24 hour over night games this past season, and every game I played in this year was a night game , the only night vision i have is what the Universe granted me through evolution.

But I did see a lot of players stamp their little feet and cry "it not fair I suck as a player and they can see at night, I quit!" and go sleep in their car.

As far as I am concerned the only games worth playing are night games , as at night engagements generally happen within the effective range of airsoft guns, so the guns are effective simulators for night fighting.

During daylight hours your ability to see targets far outstrips your ability to engage them.. and it's very frustrating to see people dancing around in the open knowing that they are out of range. Daygames Suck

My hot wash on those was pretty much the same as yours.

Re night games: NVGs are cool but not mandatory.

Radios at night would be what I'd ask for first, followed closely by tracer units for all and sundry.

I really hope your not trying to stir the pot. Comments like this really aren't needed, even though it is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I won't elaborate any further.

If any of you get the chance you should check out Operation Pine Plains in the states. I have been to two out of the 6 so far and they have been held at the Fort Drum Mout site. It's incredible and appeals to both day/night time games. It's good for people with/without NVG's and games reach up around the 600 player mark.

From what I have seen here in Ontario from the games I have attended is that, as stated above, the majority of people who attend are good for about 6-8 hours of solid gaming, after that real life factors come into play such as conditioning, work etc.

Day games are fine and appeal to a much larger crowd than the few who are fortunate enough to have night vision. Good for them for having it. There is a large portion of the airsoft community who are envious of them.

You Sir, are a genius!

I will definitely have to try this out next big game I run.

I think what Brian is getting at is that players need to be aware of what they are getting into BEFORE they reply "attending". Chances are if you attend a big overnight game in Ontario there are going to be some NVG devices on the field.

If one doesn't know, how they react speaks to their character in droves, and Brian isn't just pulling some creation-magination crap out of his butt, he was referencing actual events where players did just that = sucks for everyone else who toughs it out on the field.

Great idea.

"stirring the pot? no not at all , just speaking truth.

the difference between someone who says they will do a thing and someone who does it, is will alone.. nothing else , not kit, not conditioning, nothing else is required other than the will to do it.

Many people are fair weather fighters, and are weak willed and soft. I've witnessed soft guys find the will to push through cold, tired, hungry,and bored right before my eyes.

But far more often I witness people quitting, flaking out, and many many flights of the Blue Falcon.. as needed guys pack up their toys and head for a cushion.

Envious of those who need a NV scope to fight at night... you got it wrong, you should be envious of those who don't.

Re. games within a game format....I'd "worry" that you'd end up in the same boat that we're now...when the "fun shoot 'em up" set is done, those who aren't prepared nor interested in the milsim aspects go their merry way, leaving everyone else hanging.

The main issue, IMO, was and remains aligning each players expectations to what the host(s) are going for. If you can get 70-80% of the signups onboard and set...the inevitable dribs and drabs that saunter in can be put in place, surrounded by guys who are on-message and they'll follow the game plan.

That said, with just a few notable exceptions, the "big games" that I've attended have not been much more than a long skirmish. Especially so with the big-games that boil up to a lot of promotion/hype.

Plainly put...when there's a "big milsim" there are too many guys not prepared for it and many who lack the fortitude to stick them out. Taking random masses of all skill/experience/backgrounds and getting them on-message for an OP is most definitely possible. It takes strong leadership, drive and lots and lots and lots of comms...months in advance.

The flip side is that there is usually a lack of people willing to put that much effort into preparing "everyone else".

What would be great would be a series of "warm up Milsims" throughout the season...that lead up to a "blowout of the year" finale. They can start as skirmish friendly short games, progress into focused day long milsims with C&C, and work to multiday events. Players can get in the groove, build up what skills/stuff they need with a focus, and feel part of an end objective. Only guys who are vetted through "stage 1" go to "stage 2" games and so on up to the main event.

This has been in effect done already with one local field/host...with great results.

If dispersed groups work along those lines (and stay in comms) then those groups can be brought together for large events...and bring along a predictable contingent of guys who have been vetted for that type of event.

I am envious of their kit..no one mentioned anything about needing it to fight at night.

I have to disagree with you. Will alone is not enough to propell yourself through a game. Anyone that has played can attest to that. People who are not properly dressed cannot play effectively in the cold no matter how much "will" one has. People who are overweight and don't have the phsycial conditioning or have an injury or medical problem sometimes can't stick it out for an entire game no matter how hard they push themselves. I think the fact that people overlook this is complete ignorance. It seems more and more people just want to bitch and complain about it after the fact. It's not much of an importance until after you get their money.

Not everyone can just say I want to play airsoft and attend a 24 hour game and last the whole thing. I think people need to focus on the positive and look at the "season" collectively. Each person should evaluate themselves on their performance, not have others publicly ridicule them on this playground we call forums. I played my first 24 hour game this summer, did I last the whole thing? Fuck no. Was I able to last longer the other games I attended this year? Yes.

Thing is, new and old people learn how to adapt and overcome to achieve something they want. It comes with time and we as a community have to accept that. The sport is growing fast, I would much rather greet people with arms wide open than a slap in the nuts.

I am not meaning to 'stir the pot', and I do see what you're saying here, and I agree with points made by you and Brian.

But I would like to highlight something which seems to be really problematic.

It is in my experience that people as a whole are poor judges of their own performance, and require the evaluation of their actions by a third party in order to get any form of meaningful guidance.

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On another note not entirely unrelated: I have attended many, many, night games over the last 5 years. I have never owned night vision, nor have I even used it on the field, but a number of my team mates have and I have worked well with them in game.

It is with this experience that what Brian is saying is 100% true. 24hours is much too much for most people, and night games are frustrating for many players, especially new players.

I recall a 10 hour night game at FR, where 90% of the opposing force quite 3 hours into the game because "the other team had night vision and we can't see and we keep dying". We had one set, and it was tasked with guarding an objective, and the operator hadn't fired a shot or seen many enemies at all for that matter. The 2 guys who walked through their team for three hours were not using any lights or NVG's at all. It was all just training.

It was the "fear" of night vision which causes such bad attrition by those who don't know how to fight against it.

That was tried at Deadfall, game started at night but there wasn't enough "hardcore milsim-ers" ... too many people quit because it was cold and rainy.


This is a good way to find out who is ready for a real 24 hour game. Bus/truck all the players to a field far enough from their cars. If people are "unsure" about their abilities, they probably won't sign up. :)

I am not certain I agree,

If a game is posted in advance as a 24 hour Milsim

and the expectations of participation are clearly established.

those being “ you are expected to remain active and in the field throughout the event”

And then more than half the people who attend don’t do that .. then you have issues with game flow and providing the experience that the people who came there and did stay in game paid for.

When I host game I try to carefully balance the game to match objectives and overall goals.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to provide a satisfying game experience to people when large numbers of people flake out because they are “tired” or “cold” or “wet” ?

I mean what the hell did they expect to be.. but tired and cold and wet?

I take care of the people who come to my games.. if someone came to me and told me they were getting too cold and wet to continue I would see that they got warm and dry and fed, and made ready to resume the game as soon as possible.

When people flake out on the game and go hide in their cars, they are just giving up because it’s “too hard” for them to do.

These people are stealing from their friends.. Their friends paid for a game with certain expectations in place. when you don’t meet those expectations you are Buddy Fu**ing plain and simple.

At Deadfall I opened the door for people to come Saturday morning .. 3 people out of 90 took me up on that. Everyone else came in Friday night.. but fully half of them spent a good portion of the night racked out in their cars.
Then some of them had the audacity to complain that the game ended early after one team was able to complete all their objectives virtually unopposed.

My point of view is from a HOST perspective.. Look at it this way.. I am often faced with lots of people signing up for an all meat buffet, and then outing themselves as vegans, and bitching about whats to eat. Its exhausting...

I used to leave my Saw on top of a hill in plain sight and then take off. It would hold the hill all on it's own.

Last game I was at with NVGs pretty well all the folks with them went up on top of the hill out of range and just watched everyone else scurry around.

I can remember sitting in a hole at Deadfall in the dead of night, pitch black, couldn't see more than 10 feet, but we could hear the JOTF guys coming...

I learned that you don't need NVGs if you have a SAW :)

Great discussion. This is what I like to see. I think Brian is hung up on one game in particular and painting it red across the board even after it was exlplained as to the reasoning. 2 hours Isn't a "good portion" of a supposed 24 hour game. This was already hashed out in an AAR, lets just leave it to rest.

The sport is growing. People adapt and get stronger. People the things they need to help them last. Next season will hopefully be better. What we can hope for is that people learned from this season and grow.

Give this sport a couple more years and Canada and I am sure we can rival some of the big games in the states. Hopefully get some of them coming across the border to them as well. As it grows our government will be more accepting and understanding of the sport and it won't be as difficult to cross the borders etc with our toys.