I'm not here to start a fight again but just to say that you can join the Armed Forces at 16 with parental consent, the reserves anyway. You get to handle real firearms, grenades... the whole bit. Also, milsim is just that, a simulation, as in not the real thing, people won't die.

Look, we've been over this. Boohoo, other people can do stuff totally unrelated to the debated topic. Your point?

Fair enough, insurance I will definitely agree is not moot, however when the venue allows for underage people to play, but some of the clubs using the venue don't, it just seems that the insurance aspect doesn't play as large a roll as it would elsewhere.

I must also add that I am speaking with regards to the knowledge from only my local clubs and venues (not to give them a bad name). Many of you continue to argue points that I see as different from my actual question here.

Why is it that when the venue allows for underage people to play, they have parental consent, and will obviously find a way to obtain AEG/GBB's. That the individual clubs will still refuse to let them play?

It just seems to me that clubs that are trying to 'force' kids to stay away from airsoft for a few years are (indirectly) encouraging them to act in an uninformed and stupid manner. Especially when the only thing stopping this kid from playing is the one guy (and/or his buddies) that stand up before a game and dictate what's ok and what isn't, including the fact that minors can't play for 'ANY' reason. Even though the guy behind the desk/counter (of the venue) couldn't care less?

Clubs can turn away whoever they want. There is more to minors then just being underage and owning a gun, there is maturity and comfort levels...Mostly though, its the guns. The fact that they DO find ways to get guns, is a problem. We dont want guns in the hands of minors. Its simply not right. Its risky and its a bad image overall.

And your totally correct, most clubs are trying to "force" kids to stay away from airsoft. The key word being "kids". They don't want them there for the hundreds of reasons listed in this thread.

Obiously, you havent been to many games yet. There is no guy behind the desk of the venue. Airsoft clubs are for the most part, played on private property. Most well-established fields are on someones back property. Most owners play. Its their land, plain and simple. They do care. And if you have a well-established players group who doesnt want minors, then typically its in the owners best intrest to keep his regulars happy.

But dude, you gotta check to see if things are rattling around properly in that melon of yours. Saying that its our fault that minors do stupid things because we dont let them on our fields....is simply retarded.
So if I shoot a real-steel handgun at a gun club here in Ottawa, and I end up screwing the owners wife, he kicks me outta his shooting club, does that encourage me to act in an uninformed and stupid manner?
We do everything we can to encourage proper behaviour. The rules are here. But if a minor doesnt like the rules and side-steps them, thats their fault. We didnt encouage that.

example:
If I tell nizfiz here not to play airsoft untill hes of-age, im not encouraging him "do it anyways" if he doesnt want to do what we recommend, and decides to go out and do it anyways, then thats his fault, not mine. Im not forcing him to act stupidly. saying its ok to act stupidly simple because he cant play at our field is retarded.

First off, wow, you're going to compare enlistment to a game/sport? And when you go onto these training fields, what happens when you fuck up? What happens if the muzzle of your rifle comes ANYWHERE near pointing at someone else on the firing range? I can tell you that this game and being a reservist has really not very much more than the gun incommon.

We're not babysitters, ((and this is where more wow's are going to come in because I agree 100% with Droc here)). Club owners are like anyone else in this country who should have the right to say yes or no to any club rules they like. Look it, until recently and a un-free vote in the house of commons, gay marriage was not legal because it was against the club house rules of the christian church ((NO I AM NOT GETTING INTO RELIGION THIS IS AN EXAMPLE)). So now you're telling us that WE have to change our rules to suit your niche of people? Nope, not gonna happen.

And someone was trying to say that insurance is moot ((I'm assuming moot means nada, zilch, nothing, which I think Lawdog confirmed for me saying that its not moot so...))... Insurance is a big thing in Canada, if you don't got it, you're in shit and lots of it too. And you really got to think about that when you're saying that someone else's home, car, and life is worthless. Because that's what any of you as a minor are risking these people if the cops show up in a bitchy mood because Timmy Hoe's didn't open up on time.



I agree with Droc on this 100% as I stated before and would like to see the sale of them to minors stop 100%. I also wonder if any of these said Feilds that let minors play actually rent out guns to them?


Oh, and to any of you minors that don't like it but have your own gun. Well when you show up to a local field here, you HAVE to let me use your gun or anyone else that asks. Yep, if you think that feild owners should have no choice in who should be allowed on their feild, you should have no choice in who touches, uses, wears and tears any belongings your bring to the feild. That sound fair? Cause if it don't I really hope you understand what I'm saying here.

Dracheous, before you jump all over me, please look at the post above mine. I was just correcting what he said.

While I don't know of any deaths in airsoft I do know it is possible to die playing it. Granted it would be from something like falling or getting run over by a vehical, falling off a vehical, alergic reactions, the guns are the least dangerous part of airsofting, the props/structures can do you some damage.

The upside of not having the entire board being 18+ is that we can possibly talk some sense into these kids who manage to get their hands on airsoft. I know it's often a long shot, but it's worth a try.

Then maybe I'll stop seeing those little green .12g's from CT all over the street on the way to the coffee shop in the morning. Looked to be the aftermath of a softair driveby in downtown Windsor. We know and I know that airsoft and soft-air are different, but I doubt soccer moms or the media are going to be prepared to make the distinction when something really bad eventually goes down. (Oh, and it will. Like all things, it's just a matter of time.)

:(

Seems to me you would lose ALOT of new people in the sport if they EACH had to be age verified to join the forum. I don't think anyone would bother, the internet is an ideal place to get introduced to something. Very few people would just go out to a field knowing very little.

Also, I don't think that'd be a great attitude. You'll definitely endear yourself with the public if you take a "It wasn't our fault" approach. [insert sarcasm here]

Believe it or not, this site is not the end all be all of Airsoft. I'd say 40% of actual PLAYERS, thats not to say chairsofters, don't even bother with this site due to its frequent issues of petty politics.

ya, I know. I've been talking to a couple on MSN and other forums. Once I get out to a game...sometime this month, I might find myself ditching this place.

seeing as it the central hub to airsoft in canada....with a fantastic classified section and more info then you could shake a bag of dead kittens at.
There are thousands of people here who all play by the rules and work with the community, but if you arnt one of those, then sure, you can ditch it.

though I have a feeling we'll see a thread "ohhh, what gun should i buy" or "i need upgrade help"

as much of a bitch as ASC can be, it is extremely useful.

but you keep inplying that are rules are the reason for people your age doing stupid things. Ha!

Seeing as your what? Ottawa. With 2 fields, both that I hit for almost every game. LZ is invite only and +18 enforced. An extremely well built field with a fantastic players group.
Foxden, a great field, but you dont play your cards right and you'll find yourself a backyard funboy. Foxtail takes age very seriously.

Fun fact! 80% of all statistics are made up.

I think most of us do play. the rest are underagers or players that dont have time(or got to old) to play but continue to collect and perfect.

I didn't say 60% of people on ASC don't play, I said at many games its not suprising to find almost half the players don't participate on ASC. They have their friends sign them up for games and such.

EDIT 2 - Sorry about that Yuxi, I seem to have temporarily lost my ability to read, and thought your comment to Nifiz was directed to me, my bad.

edit 1- Also, my comment isn't so much a shot at ASC, its just the truth. There are a lot of petty and pointless battles that take place here, and as such I know a number of players who just don't bother with the site at all.

true, but just because someone doesnt frequent ASC doesnt mean they arent a member of the ASC community. Lets face it, even those who dont post use the buy & sell sections.

Droc,

I'm talking about people who just avoid the site completly. There are a good number of players who aren't on ASC at all.

This is more common in other provinces though, or even more remote areas of ontario. While there is an ASO, there isn't a Toronto/GTA specific site, and as such ASC sort of becoms the default for most of metropolitan Ontario. I wonder how much activity would change if there were more local clubs? In ontario at least.

Well 72% of people can tell you that. :-D

Ok, first off I'm going to need to reiterate the fact that I really don't care if 'kids' play airsoft or not. I'm 21 so that part really doesn't matter to me! I'm not trying to argue with any of you or change anyone's mind about letting them play. (It's very apparent I couldn't if I tried)

Fair enough, but last time I checked wasn't this called prejudice? And please don't argue that the law says it's diferent because 50-100 years ago there were many laws that excluded women and many ethnic groups. It's still prejudiced!

I agree that there are many problems with kids being immature and stupid, but as you said they DO find ways to get guns. There is not a thing you or I or any retailer can do about it. As much as we would like to. Personally I think it would be Ideal if it were possible to keep them all out of the hands of kids.

And I'm really trying not to, but I can't help but take at least some offense to this. The place where we play here (for indoor) doubles as a lasertag place before 6:00pm so yes there is a "guy behind the desk". And for outdoor it's usually paintball places so once again there is a "guy behind the desk"

And as much as I tried earlier I have to take offense to this one. I'm going to take a quick off topic break to say that so far as I know I've tried to be quite respectful this entire time. I have a good sense of humour so I would normally be fine with this if it didn't feel a bit condescending. Anyways, back to the topic at hand. I said earlier that we may be 'indirectly' causing it. It's not really our fault per se however it may be the 'reason' that these kids go out and play with their friends in the park.

No, but there are still ways you can shoot your gun while following the laws, these kids get a choice. Put their guns away in the closet for the next few years, or break the law and go play in the park.


It's never ok to do stupid things and I know that no one here would ever want that, including myself. you are however forcing him into a choice! One that most kids will choose the option we don't want them to.

I want to get across here I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about letting kids play. Just please think about what effect that may have on whether or not a kid will find his own way of using his gun. A lot of us tend to turn a blind eye towards a kid after we tell him he can't play, or can't buy a gun. Yet we're the first to be up in arms when one of us reads an article about the police catching some kids playing in a park or something like that.

Even if we aren't part of the problem, so far we aren't part of the solution either.

man u guys are losers
 

adam is gay!!!!!

and to reiterate what i just said u guys suk balls

a man i am funny

i am gonna bug

the hell outta you dumb fuckers

You will all have to forgive those last few I have a feeling it was the work of my room mate

Wow this thread is still going.

Fluffy, you do have some point to what to say, but some of what you say doesn't make sense. Yes, kids will get the hands on airsoft one way or another, but we shouldn't ENCOURAGE them to do so even more, hence the reason why retailers shouldn't sell to minors. (As for clubs/fields, they are welcomed to invite minors, but at the end of the day, it's still their choice)

Yes, like alcohol, cigarettes, and gambling, society does not want minors to have any part of it, do you consider that prejudice? And if you think about it carefully, these are the same reasons why airsoft take on a similar approach. There will be kids who drink, smoke and gamble out of their mind, but as long as MAJORITY doesn't, that's what laws/regulations are trying to achieve.

Fluffy...

Private fields are like your private home. You DO have the right to refuse anyone's attendance. It's your Legal Right.
Fair? It has nothing to do with fairness or discrimination. It's YOUR land. Now if you want your rights to be put aside, so be it.

I dont understand what you find so hard to get in all this.

i want to see your sources!!! :grin:

I saw it on teh intarweb so it must be true!!!

Droc, please don't get me wrong. I can understand why you would. I will not break the rules. I'm just saying why I think some might/do. I think most of the rules in airsoft are very reasonable. I understand the liability issue. If I can't play at LZ well then too bad, I'll wait. I can play at foxden though and I don't plan on messing that up by doing something dumb, why would I. The whole tactical part of airsoft is what fascinates me. I don't want to be stuck with no place to play.

As for coming back here and asking about which gun to buy and upgrades. I've got it covered... I've used the search function extensively and have found every bit of info I need on the p90, its upgrades, issues, fixes etc.

As Greylocks pointed out, most of this stuff is on private property, and they can turn away whoever they want. Even fields that double as airsoft fields, since they are primarly lazer/paint, airsoft is extra and un-official, and can turn down whoever they want. And realistically, the community rules dont want minors, and can turn them away for just that reason.
You cant pull your descrimination card anymore then a 6 year old can when he wants to get a real rifle.

again, since those places are lazer/paint places, they run airsoft in after-hours when it would normally be closed. Its those places that should be MOST concerned with the age limits.


Our rules and attitudes are here to make people be responsible. We are not forcing anyone to act stupidly.
What it seems like you keep saying is that if we dont let minors play, they will be stupid so we should change the rules to accomidate for their idiocy.
No dude, no way
We are not going to change the rules because they "will do it anyways"
This whole process weeds out the morons.
If a minor side-steps our rules, fine, not our problem. It just garentees that they will miss out on the best thing about airsoft. Guns are nice, but the games are what makes this thing the best. Look at the videos from any of our major operations. you cant compare it to anything you'll do in your backyard. you mess with the rules, you wont be a part in these things.

And about the offence, it doesnt matter. This is the ways things are. I was a huge advocate for minors in the past, greylocks and I would fight to the death over minors, but really, the rules are the rules. It took years to come up with them and they are in the best intrests of airsoft. We dont care about hurt feeling or stupid minors, this is all about what is bets for airsoft in Canada.

No, I understand. Its a harsh reality. If I was a minor, Id sure as hell want to play airsoft too. Its frustrating when we have to replay this thread every week or so.

BTW, P90, not a great field gun for ottawa. Great for CQB, but the weird mag makes gear hard to find, the lack of a good hicap makes foxden game difficult, and being short, isnt all that great for open fields like the LZ.

Maybe it should be stickied to show everyone who is interested. Also, if you want to hear the same story over and over again you can just go to this thread. If not, just ignore it.

Thx for the suggestion. I know its weaknesses, but I think moded to 400fps and with an m4a1 tight bore through the silencer I could get some decent range. The ammo is an issue but if I really can't deal with it, I'll just buy that box mag which take 1600 or something plus an m16 high cap with 300-500.

Hey Droc, I got a question for you, because I know Fluffy and nizfiz won't get it.

Are these paintball fields and indoor lazer tag arena's private property with a comercial license? I mean, if you owned a jean store, wouldn't you have the right to turn away customers? Not that it'd be great for business, but as a free Canadian citizen you have the right to not do business with someone if you don't want too right? So why the hell would it make a difference if it was a paintball field or someones back yard like the Foxden or the LZ?

Of course I agree 100% here with Droc. There is a problem with minors owning these guns, a big one. And for another fun fact, anyone under 18 is not permitted to own a REAL fire arm. For you to use one going huntin' with gramps or your dad you gotta go through a bunch of hoolla hoops and training courses just to get a peice of paper that says your "mature" or "stable" enough to be trusted to "share" a rifle/shotgun with someone on a hunt.


And Fluffy, if you REALLY want to call prejudice here on saying we don't accept minors. And that its against the law in Canada to do that? Well then go look at ANY government applied law, because according to you there is alot of prejudice there just in age. Like, can't vote till 18, can't go for your drivers license till 16, can't buy smokes till 18, can't drink till 19 in some provinces 18 in the rest. Seriously, take a look around you. There are laws in place for, and read carefully, SAFETY! We can't let any 12 year old get a drivers license because he/she's grew up on a farm and knows more about driving than some racecar dricers. Nor can we start letting every 15-16 year old start voting because if you go look at some of these protesters down on parliment hill, like here's my favorite, "FREE TIBET" I've seen so many of those damn protests, but you know what really gets me? Some of em are wearing clothes that have "MADE IN CHINA" or listening to CD players and other stuff that says "MADE IN CHINA." And then a week later you see them protesting "Stop the wars." Well, you can't free Tibet with out going in and taking Tibet from China, OR you could boycott their trade till they agree to free them, but those protesters are already not doing that so. Yeah, we gotta have a set "Maturity" and "Stable" standard before we start letting people vote. And drinking, I know there is tonnes of underage drinking, my grandfather owned a bar, I drank underage. I was only allowed to drink so much and not allowed to drink behind my parents back. As long as they knew where I was and they were in control of it they were fine. Its still illegal I know, but I'm not a drunk, and I don't like very many alcohols. But let's take away that 18 and 19 age limit and let 12 year olds into it! While were at it, lets legalise marijuanna, and crack cocaine.

Fluffy, the point to the rant here is simple. It is NOT prejudice to set limits and guidlines. Because right now the issue is safety. Beleive it or not but most 12 year olds are not physically build or matured ((physically)) to run around in commando gear. Loose equipment can cause you to trip and fall. This can cause many injuries and I really don't want to see ambulances pulling up where there are huge stashes of guns and bb ammo. The media would blow a big fat load all over that!


Nizfiz, if you're going for range and accuracy of an M4A1, go with an M4A1!! You can get all the accessories you want and you're not monkeying around jury-rigging stuff that breaks mid-game. The P90 is a great QCB gun as Droc said, because that's exactly what it was designed for. This is an SMG its not a rifle, and its not a Large Maching Gun, its a small one designed for clearing rooms, not feilds. The only benifit you'd find for infeild action with real steal versus an M4 and a P90, is that the P90 would be lighter overall, because of its small ammo. But the M4 would stack up quick against it in range and stopping power. So decide what and where you want to use your gun, so that you can play with it stock until you can decide if the gun is comfortable to you before you stick $500+ of upgrades into it only to have it on the "Forsale" section of the forums because you found that its not the most comfortable gun. Like I love the look of the G36, but just holding one the other day I could see quickly that I'd not be comfortable with one for long periods of play, just wasn't user friendly to me. ((Not to say the G36 is a bad gun here, just an example of get a feel for the gun you want)).

thanks for the tip, I'm not buying anything until I get out to a game though and see the guns. I'm a sucker for the p90's looks that's the problem. Technically I can't buy a gun but it'll be my parents' gun and they'll trust me.

That is all we ask.

My parents aren't a problem, I argue mostly because I like to argue (people tell me I should be a lawyer). I want to make one thing clear: I never planned and never plan to break the rules.

There are times when being quiet is a far better course of action, even in court.

none of us are perfect, me notably

This is really getting frustrating.

Every one of you who has so far tried to argue against me has been giving reasons for why minors can't play. And those with out any reasons have just been saying "because that's the rules". I honestly don't know how I can get this across to you all any simpler.

I don't care if minors play. If you don't want to let them play fine, then don't. It doesn't hinder me in the slightest. I'm not a minor, I don't know any who want to play where they can't. And to be honest I'm not even some 'nice guy' who just believes in being fair. Personally I can't stand kids, I've never been able to even when I was one, so if we could guarantee somehow that a minor would never even lay eyes on an Airsoft gun, I would probably be happier than most of you even. I've said countless times already I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on that issue, and I never have. I just want you all to think about what I'm saying.

Here is it as simply as I can possibly put it.

Because of the things we do and the rules we have (even though it may be indirectly and unintentional. The rules are there for GOOD reason), minors may see no other option than to break the rules that we and the law have laid in place. Now there may be nothing we can do about that, if not...fine! But the next time you hear about a kid getting shot while playing in a park or some other stupid thing, rather than just chalking it up to the stupidity of youth, actually THINK about the reasons why this kid/kids did what they did. That's all I ask.

Is that a little easier and more straight forward now?

The easiest way for soccer moms to get airsoft banned, is if we turn a blind eye and do nothing.

Well Fluffly, I got one question for you, should we make it easier for any joe blow to get a drivers license? Because some kids do steal their parents car. Maybe we should get the Soccer moms after the government to ban personally owned vehicles?


Fluff, what I really don't get is how someone who says, "I don't care if minors play the sport." Says two lines down "If we could guarantee shomehow that a minor would never even lay eyes on an Airsoft gun, I would propbably be happier than most of you even." I don't get that, its a bit of a flip flop aint it? I mean first you say, "Sure let them play, then you say "No don't even let em know it exists."


The problem I see with the logic of "THINK about the reasons why this kid/kids did what tehy did." is going to be the same ill logic that never really got put into motion following the Columbine incident. Where kids went into the school with the guns and pipe bombs to kill people. No on really looked into why those kids did it, the focus was on the victums of that incident instead of the victums of YEARS or incidents that built up to that one. There was a report that said that beer bottles were thrown at them on their way into the school that day and the evidence was there was broken beer bottle glass in their trench coat pockets.

Its too much of an aftermath thing Fluffy, its like waiting for the Hurricane to come before boarding up the windows. I know you're not trying to argue here, but all I'm saying is, the best possible action we can do as a community is to just keep them out until they're old enough to be more trustworthy. Like the drivers license or voting examples I've used. And I really think arming these kids and showing em the ins and outs of the sport/game isn't going to help with the Soccer moms neighter, since more kids will have the ability to get the guns in the first place.

For the most part I just don't wanna deal with some ones' crotch droppings because they are too busy playing bingo and can't be bothered to look after them.

second if they go off and do something stupid, well that's just dandy, as they're weeding them selves off before we have to deal with them as adults. we need less antidarwin laws and more personal responsibilty laws.

Everytime we hear about some kid getting shot in a park with airsoft, we do think about it. And the only explanation we've come up with is stupidity of the kid(s) and stupidity of the parent(s).

Also we aren't turning a blind eye and doing nothing. Many of us have written to MPs and we've also had a group of well known airsofters write a formal letter to the government. As well we all follow rules regarding storage and transport of our airsoft guns from our house to the field.

Ok, First off, Dracheous...you're an idiot. Apparently my entire post (stated as simply as I possibly could) went right over your head. please stop typing things, you're giving me a headache.

second, Lisa...I agree with the darwinism thing, but it still affects all of us in the end.

And thirdly, thank you Grim Fandango, for being one of the few with a good point. As you said there are many people in the airsoft community doing some very good and effective things to protect our beloved sport. I just think all of us (soccer moms and airsofters alike) need to look a little deeper into these issues than just plain stupidity.

If what I'm saying has absolutely nothing to do with the problems that are occuring much more often than we'd like, than so be it, maybe I'm wrong. But if I'm not, is it not even worth so much as a second thought?

This thread has outlived it's usefulness. Or overreached.
If someone wants to split it back to where it had a point, by all means. Until then...