Moto-gearset Taboo setup

[DoubleEdged]

I've been reading around on upgrades and all the sites I see never pair high torque and high speed.

Seems like the General acceptance is:

If you want power, you only go full power.
If you want speed, you only go full speed.

However, what if you wanted to achieve both, or close to both (kind of like how you tune out a car to achieve the best balance of performance)?

I was thinking about the following setup:

You have an average spring that can be set for outdoor fields M120 at 380-410FPS.

Couple it with a VVD so you don't have to change the spring later (yeah it's expensive, but it means I don't have to open the gun again), and you can change the output to lower velocities for indoor use.

An infinite max torque gear set (Guarder's is 45:1 for example).
A high speed motor (Guarder's 40K RPM for example).

The idea for this setup is that I'm estimating that the High speed motor has less torque than a standard motor. Thus, using a high torque gearset is suppose to offset the torque loss from the motor loss.

Ideally, I'd want the torque increase on the system as a whole to increase proportionally with the load increase of the new spring. Which also in ideal circumstances, we could maintain its stock rate of fire with minimal stresses to the gearbox and shims.

My only problem with going ahead with such a setup is that I'm missing stall torque limits of the motors. If I knew that I could probably tweak accordingly.

[Trevatd]

I think it's more of a subset of the locations where people play. From what I've noted, generally locations either consist of 2 kinds of setting a good deal deperated, or are purely one setting or another.

CQB
Woods

It is rare that a location managed to have a diverse mix of terrain or terrain that blends seamlessly so that having a gun that is a generalist is an advantage. Just my opinion, though. Generally some CQB places will have "open" areas where "range" matters, and Woods areas will have some CQB terrain, or such. Having a specialization tends to be more effective than being a generalist for some reason. Or at least there is a common perception that there is.

I think the perception might come from the fact that guns with huge ranges (due to high Power) tend to be annoying to fight- always having to close into range. The same goes for guns with high rates of fire. These players can do spectacularly well, or totally fail- players generally don't talk about their failures.

Just as an example, we've got a player here who managed to achieve 50bps on an MP5 (although at about 310~ FPS) and another who is shooting a fairly hot AEG (490~) and both are lauded as being "nice" and effective weapons, with skilled players. We've seen both of them do damage before- and we often talk about their successes, but rarely comment on their failures- while the middle range guns rarely "clean up" or take home a gold, but aren't often totally lacking. (High rate of fire player sacrificed speed. High power player sacrificed rate of fire.)

[ThunderCactus]

My M249 shoots 380fps at 1500rpm, and it has for well over a year now. That's high speed and high power, there's no reason to go above the 380 mark using .28g BBs.
I've got an 11.1v LiPo, MOSFET, upgraded wiring, Eagle force EF1300 motor (super torque, good speed too), and I'm running prometheus triple torque gears.
The idea was to put as little resistance on the motor as possible. Running LiPo helps significantly since you're putting higher amperage into the motor, like if I was using NiMH I'd have to use like a 14.4v battery.

Don't use guarder gears, they're crap. Guarder motors are sketchy too.
And IMO you probably shouldn't use prometheus gears if you want really quick trigger response since they're REALLY heavy.

[lurkingknight]

welll... there's high speed and then there's DSG... That will rape you mags in a couple seconds.

edit: I'll add that in my short time playing I haven't found a use for anything that shoots higher than 25rps... let alone the 45-60 rps DSG setups run.

[venture]

??what is dsg??

[lurkingknight]

dual sector gear... been reading a bit about them... 2 shots fired for 1 trigger pull. The gear has 2 sets of teeth 180 degrees apart, setup to short stroke the piston... they generally run a heavier spring to compensate for a shorter pull to get in the 320~fps area. I think higher than that they start dropping rps.

60 Round Per Second DSG AEG. - YouTube


Anyways, back to highspeed motors with high torque gears... I haven't tried it, cause my tempormental p90 is getting something like 25-30 rps already with an 11.1 lipo with a matched high torque set... not sure what the real rof is exactly, I have to get my chrono back to find out... but I need to solve the feeding issue first. :P

[wind_comm]

much MUCH easier is high speed gears (SHS 13:1) with high torque motor (ACM Neo). it'll pull the M120 you're after no problem.

VVD's need very hard springs to work though, especially on the full open position, pretty much to the point as you might as well just get another gun. you'd basically be smacking an M150 with zero compression, not to mention you'd have to remove the (mostly metal) second tooth.

also DSG's probably are the single most challenging thing to do. ASM is the place to go if you want to learn more. (especially since the guy who makes them and the most experienced DSG techs reside there)

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by DoubleEdged

I've been reading around on upgrades and all the sites I see never pair high torque and high speed.

I'm not sure it's as uncommon as you think... the upgrades I'm doing to my PDW right now are exactly that, a very high torque motor with high speed gears. I've seen it recommended in a bunch of places.

[Spawn28]

My KWA M4S System gets 31rnds a second at 401 FPS with .20's but thats with a LiPo so ya i guess it could be High Torque, High Speed

[DoubleEdged]

Hmmmm I guess High torque motor and High speed gears could work, but I'm somewhat concerned about the stress that such a setup would apply to the gearset from both the load and the engine.

My other concern is the extra power draw from the engine to the battery for that set. Although upgrading to LiPos is probably going to be the next natural "Generally Accepted Standard".

I guess you guys are using high quality carbon steel/high tensile steels/titanium gear sets?

[HKGhost]

I have a DSG build in the works. Not going for 60 RPS but ~50 RPS. All high speed parts coupled with 2x 7.4v lipo (14.8v).

[wind_comm]

Originally Posted by DoubleEdged

Hmmmm I guess High torque motor and High speed gears could work, but I'm somewhat concerned about the stress that such a setup would apply to the gearset from both the load and the engine.

My other concern is the extra power draw from the engine to the battery for that set. Although upgrading to LiPos is probably going to be the next natural "Generally Accepted Standard".

I guess you guys are using high quality carbon steel/high tensile steels/titanium gear sets?

m120 isn't even remotely a stressful load. don't worry. just get a sorbo pad and you're good to go.

the only bad thing you can really do is underpower your motor. (not giving it enough amps) Neodymium torque motors are VERY VERY efficient. adding short gear ratios the the mix only makes it more efficient.

for the most part, a set of SHS/XYT/JG gears are pretty much unbreakable, unless you're doing something really really wrong. if you're after completely indestructible, then get a set of RiotSC/Siegetek gears.

...I'd really love to do a DSG, just to do it, but real life likes to get in the way of "hobbies".